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Editor, Player (44)
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It's probably best to count the time after turn 2000 in time-consuming actions; that abstracts away the effects of bonus speed turns, air elemental form, riding a hasted spurred-on warhorse, etc, and is likely to apply whatever goal we aim for (except possible pure realtime, but it may be relevant even then). To start with, we need a call to adjalign() with a positive quantity on or after turn 2000; on is obviously faster. There are a huge number of places it can be called, but all of them seem to take nonzero time. Thus, it's one action (the first on turn 2000) to gain enough alignment. From the Quest to the Sanctum goes as Kerio has described, I think; unlock the quest (one action), teleport to the quest nemesis (one action). I'm far from certain it does cost one action to actually kill the quest nemesis, though; after the teleport, there would be an opportunity for a monster's turn if the monster had the right speed (I think; someone check me on this...), and a stray monster (not the player, not the nemesis) could potentially try to attack the player with a wand or similar weapon and hit and kill the nemesis by accident. It would be horrifically unlikely, but hey, that's what luck manipulation is for! From then, it's one action to move to and pick up the Bell (using autopickup); if playing a Wizard, the Eye could be picked up on this turn (any other class could, and would have had to, wish for it before turn 2000). One more action branchports to either the VotD or Vlad's Tower (as far as I can tell, it doesn't matter which); one levports to the vibrating square (requiring a lot of luck manipulation to land there directly rather than on the same level); then it's two actions for the Invocation (the Bell and the Book; I see no reason why the Candelabrum can't have been burning all this time). One more levport takes us into the Sanctum, next to the High Priest. Total so far: 9 actions. I'm having difficulty conceiving of a way to kill the High Priest on the monster's turn immediately after the levport (if indeed there is one at all); as far as I can tell, there are going to be no other monsters in range except monsters that followed the player through the levports (which could have been carefully pre-lured to locations in the VotD or Vlad's to "pick them up"), and the monsters would have to get a turn then (is it even possible immediately after following?), attack the High Priest that turn (due to desire for the Amulet, tameness, or due to conflict), and actually kill the High Priest. (Alternative scenario: steal the Amulet from the High Priest and die in the same turn.) Potentially, we'll have to spend an action actually killing something right then, making 10. In either case, we'll need to move to and autopickup the Amulet, making 11 actions. Next the ascension run. I'm assuming we luck-manipulate away the infamous "mysterious force", meaning that there isn't a need to be Chaotic here like there is in non-TAS speedruns (manipulating the Force away is equally difficult whatever your alignment; it's just the severity of its behaviour that depends on your alignment). The fastest way to go up, in terms of actions, is almost certainly the (rather boring and cheap) cursed potion of gain level. The minimum possible size for Gehennom (counting the Sanctum and Valley) is 20 levels, making 20 potions of gain level, and 20 actions, to rise up from the Sanctum to the Castle. An alternative method is to sequence-break, which works like this: Sanctum (level 20) -> 2 actions -> real fake wizard's tower (manipulatable to level 18) -> jump onto the portal (1 action) -> bottom of Rodney's Tower (manipulatable to level 13) -> throw Amulet at wall (1 action) -> teleport Amulet (1 action) -> #sit or levport down (1 action) -> levport back to bottom of Rodney's Tower, landing exactly on level 13 and picking up the Amulet (1 action) -> 13 potions of gain level up to the Castle (13 actions). This is a total of 20 actions, the same as the other route, and would be a lot more impressive to watch. The upside, timewise, is that it skips 4 otherwise mandatory levels altogether, which would save the time the game would take to generate those levels, and also probably has slightly less text (and incidentally, works just as well given a non-minimum-depth Sanctum, because it skips more levels to compensate for more levels existing); the downside is that it requires considerably more luck manipulation to pull off. So far, this is 31 actions to the Castle. From the Castle to the Plane of Earth, I see no reason why any strategy would be faster than simply using cursed potions of gain level on the way up (potentially landing exactly on upstairs and climbing those, to reduce the number of potions needed, or simply to reduce the very repetitive text). The minimum depth for the Castle is dungeon level 25, meaning 24 potions and 24 actions to reach dungeon level 1, and one more action to climb the stairs to the Plane of Earth if going up the conventional way (or one more action to drink the one last potion of gain level if going up the way DeathOnAStick so famously did by mistake). So the total number of actions from turn 2000 to the Plane of Earth is 56 (57 if the Nemesis can't be killed the turn he comes into vision; 55 if the High Priest can); the other thing to optimise, depending on the goal, would be the number of actions obtained per turn, which is pretty much independent of other considerations. I'll try to work out the fastest route through the Planes later. Here, we're moving horizontally rather than vertically, which gives much more scope for creativity and thus makes it a lot harder to calculate.
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for horizontal movement wouldn't Teleportitis and insane luck be the quickest?
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thewumpus wrote:
My sympathy goes out to whichever poor soul ends up having to calculate the shortest route to the portal on the Plane of Water.
Sequence break time! The fastest route is clearly to drown and be lifesaved, "popping out" into the bubble which happens to contain the portal. (I've wiztested this sequence break; it seems entirely possible in a TAS, and would even work in realtime if not for the luck manipulation required to end up going forwards rather than backwards.) For the other Planes, it's less obvious. The "stuck" major trouble plus prayer is one potential way to do Astral, if there's some optimal way to get trapped behind boulders (wishing would work but is slow); I'm not sure if it's faster than the "traditional" jumping+teleport enemies mechanism. (I need to check if prayer takes five actions, or five turns; there'd be quite a difference in a minimum-turns speedrun, although not in a minimum-keystrokes speedrun.) On the planes of Earth and Fire, it'll be a matter of manipulating the portal as near to the starting location as possible, and travelling there as fast as possible (possibly via jumping, which would require being a Wizard). Air I'm not sure about, though; the game forces the player and the portal to start at opposite ends of the map, and thus finding a sequence-break to get from one end of the map to the other would probably be a lot faster than having to walk all the way across, without even the opportunity to jump!
Joined: 7/19/2010
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Location: New Zealand
I wonder if any benefit could be gained from having a tame chamelon, polymorphing into various form at opportune moments - in addition to a ring of conlict. Perhaps a nymph to steal the Bell of Opening, and later an intelligent monster wielding Vorpal Blade to deal with the High Priest. My knowledge of the speed system is far from complete, so I'm unsure if either of these actually have the potential to reduce the turn count.
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errror1 wrote:
for horizontal movement wouldn't Teleportitis and insane luck be the quickest?
Not in the endgame, where horizontal teleports are blocked. EDIT: And vertical ones, for that matter.
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oh, whops Wiki says self teleportation doesn't work but you can still teleport items and monsters. Is there any situation that might trick a monster into trying to teleport you? I'm guessing not
Joined: 3/31/2010
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@thewumpus: Why would you steal the Bell over, say, getting the Dark One killed by a monster somehow? And there's no need to *carry* a monster with us :) @errror1: Monsters don't use wands of teleportation - the only teleporting attack a monster has is the teleporting touch of the quantum mechanic, but it's still blocked in the Planes - outside, does it really matter?
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Because it's relevant, I've checked the source, and in-game tests, for the timing of prayer. It seems that prayer costs 3 turns and 1 action.
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I've been testing some sequence breaks to see whether they work. Most notably, the MAJOR_TROUBLE_STUCK_IN_WALL sequence break does not work on the plane of Air. Amazingly, the NetHack devteam had thought of that; the rescue teleport will always leave you in the same third of the map, meaning that it's not nearly worth the time it would take to set it up. (Also of note is that that sequence break requires you to be surrounded by immobile boulders, thus requiring twice as many boulders as might otherwise be thought necessary; I wonder if it's possible with monsters instead?) The same sequence break does work on Astral, in that there aren't artificial restrictions from ending up right at the altar like there are against ending up right at the portal on Air. However, I'm not at all convinced it saves time; sourcing the necessary boulders would be a major issue (you can't just wish for them, as that comes with a forced increase of prayer timeout which would cause the subsequent prayer to fail despite all luck manipulation), and prayer itself is also rather slow. I've also discovered a potentially faster way to do the sequence break on Water; if you're punished and carrying your iron ball, you can throw the ball into the water, and as long as it doesn't hit a monster (trivial to manipulate) and you're strong enough (trivial to arrange in advance), it'll drag you far enough into the water that you have no option but to drown, allowing the sequence break to be pulled off in just one action. However, air elementals are immune to punishment; although this gives an obvious way to ditch the iron ball afterwards, it would mean that beforehand the player couldn't be using that fastest of forms. So although this is optimal from the point of view of minimum actions, it may not be from the point of view of minimum turns. Also of note with punishment is that it allows a rather fast form of movement, 4 squares and 1 square on alternate actions, via throwing the ball. Unfortunately, it isn't quite as fast as jumping. EDIT: Fixed the plane, I meant Air not Fire.
Joined: 2/19/2010
Posts: 248
ais523 wrote:
Most notably, the MAJOR_TROUBLE_STUCK_IN_WALL sequence break does not work on the plane of Fire. Amazingly, the NetHack devteam had thought of that; the rescue teleport will always leave you in the same third of the map, meaning that it's not nearly worth the time it would take to set it up. (Also of note is that that sequence break requires you to be surrounded by immobile boulders, thus requiring twice as many boulders as might otherwise be thought necessary; I wonder if it's possible with monsters instead?)
What about TROUBLE_LAVA? It should be pretty easy to get stuck in the lava, similar to drowning on the plane of water. AFAIK it's still subject to the same teleport restrictions, but it should be faster than any other method. Source suggests that monsters are not enough to block a boulder; the far side either has to be a wall, a boulder or beyond the edge of the map.
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rhebus wrote:
ais523 wrote:
Most notably, the MAJOR_TROUBLE_STUCK_IN_WALL sequence break does not work on the plane of Fire. Amazingly, the NetHack devteam had thought of that; the rescue teleport will always leave you in the same third of the map, meaning that it's not nearly worth the time it would take to set it up. (Also of note is that that sequence break requires you to be surrounded by immobile boulders, thus requiring twice as many boulders as might otherwise be thought necessary; I wonder if it's possible with monsters instead?)
What about TROUBLE_LAVA? It should be pretty easy to get stuck in the lava, similar to drowning on the plane of water. AFAIK it's still subject to the same teleport restrictions, but it should be faster than any other method.
Unfortunately, I typoed my post. The problem isn't on Fire, but rather Air (I've corrected the post now), where there's no lava to drown in.
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errror1 wrote:
oh, whops Wiki says self teleportation doesn't work but you can still teleport items and monsters. Is there any situation that might trick a monster into trying to teleport you? I'm guessing not
As far as I remember if you happen to be engulfed in a vortex or in process for been digested by several other specific monster, you can at least teleport the enemy and still been inside him once teleported. I think I did this once, in the gnomish Mine'End(Version 1: The Mimic of the Mines), but this is long time ago... someone could confirm for the plane?
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the wiki says the enemy will be teleported but you will become unengulfed and say in the same place. I'm wondering if you can teleport rocks to the Astral plane to get stuck in wall, or can you not levelport objects to no teleport levels
Joined: 2/19/2010
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BadPotato wrote:
As far as I remember if you happen to be engulfed in a vortex or in process for been digested by several other specific monster, you can at least teleport the enemy and still been inside him once teleported. I think I did this once, in the gnomish Mine'End(Version 1: The Mimic of the Mines), but this is long time ago... someone could confirm for the plane?
I think this used to work, but doesn't anymore. teleport.c's u_teleport_mon() code has a check for noteleport and ejects you from the monster:
1278. 	} else if (level.flags.noteleport && u.uswallow && mtmp == u.ustuck) {
1279. 	    if (give_feedback)
1280. 		You("are no longer inside %s!", mon_nam(mtmp));
1281. 	    unstuck(mtmp);
so if you try to teleport a monster that teleports you on a notele level, the monster gets teleported but you stay where you are. Note that covetous monsters' teleport-to-upstairs is different; so if you leave Juiblex alive, you can (with the amulet) arrive at the swamp, get swallowed, get transported to the upstairs, then dispatch (or teleport) juiblex and head upstairs. There aren't any other covetous swallowing monsters (beside quest nemeses) which could also be abused like this are there?
Joined: 3/31/2010
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After some chatting with ais523 we came up with a really good strategy for astral: get a random summon nasties that creates fire giants in a corridor, bringing boulders; genocide H and bam, instantly stuck; #pray to get ported over your altar and #offer - alternatively, bring boulders as a H (titan? although that screws up Water's strategy), dropping them and teleporting them, making them appear all around you - this strategy has the bonus of having no setup time, but requires you to be in a slower form.
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Kerio wrote:
After some chatting with ais523 we came up with a really good strategy for astral: get a random summon nasties that creates fire giants in a corridor, bringing boulders; genocide H and bam, instantly stuck; #pray to get ported over your altar and #offer - alternatively, bring boulders as a H (titan? although that screws up Water's strategy), dropping them and teleporting them, making them appear all around you - this strategy has the bonus of having no setup time, but requires you to be in a slower form.
Unlike Kerio, I'm not convinced that this is fastest. In the 3 turns + 1 action that it takes to pray, plus the time it takes to set up the strategy in question, I'd be surprised if you couldn't reach the altar the regular way.
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well, abusing the speed system you *can* move to up to 7 squares, as an hasted airE; get a monster to strike the two doors, and i guess you can solve the whole of Astral in 3/4 turns. It's lame though :( getting a seed that allows for an empty route between monsters will be a challenge, though
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Kerio wrote:
well, abusing the speed system you *can* move to up to 7 squares, as an hasted airE; get a monster to strike the two doors, and i guess you can solve the whole of Astral in 3/4 turns. It's lame though :( getting a seed that allows for an empty route between monsters will be a challenge, though
Use conflict and get them to all kill each other in your path. Bonus points if you get a player-monster with the Tsurugi to one-shot all the bosses.
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heh, we should get as many unique monsters in the vanished creatures list - also... tsurugi? don't you mean vorpy? ooh, sarcasm. got it
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Kerio wrote:
heh, we should get as many unique monsters in the vanished creatures list - also... tsurugi? don't you mean vorpy? ooh, sarcasm. got it
Not sarcasm. We're probably using a pet with Vorpy for the Quest and Sanctum bosses, and artifacts can only be generated once. I only just noticed that Vorpy generates randomly and the Tsurugi doesn't (and thus they'd have to be the other way round...)
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good point - tsurugis have an higher priority for pets too, and they *deal* a good amount of damage regardless of the instakill we'd have to break artiwishless though :( ;) P.S.: what's the theorical turncount so far?
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This time, on the subject of actions per turn and maximum movement speed. (Thanks to nht from #nethack for discussing this with me.) The fastest way to move in terms of actions is to jump; if playing as a wizard (nobody else can gain the necessary skills), this can go up to 4 squares in a straight line north/south/east/west, or manage a shorter distance in other directions. (Ideally, we'd move in a jump-friendly line as much as possible when jumping.) However, jumping has a weird timing rule: it always costs the rest of the turn. Punishment (throwing an iron ball) has similar rules, but allows movement of 5 squares every 2 actions (4 being pulled by the ball, 1 moving to the ball's location and picking it up in the same action using autopickup); although this seems slower, it doesn't cost the rest of the turn. Clearly, it's faster to be in a faster form than the slow human/elvish/orcish form our wizard could start in. The fastest form in the game is the air elemental, which with manipulatable luck gets 4 actions a turn when hasted. However, air elementals are immune to punishment, and so the fastest speed they can manage is 7 squares per turn: walk, walk, walk, jump. (It's possible for air elementals to jump if they have both the Eyes of the Overworld and a range-4+ light source, like the Candelabrum.) Air elemental form is the fastest for non-movement actions like quaffing cursed potions of gain level, but by luck-manipulating controlled (or even uncontrolled!) polymorphitis, we can switch between forms at will, so we can abandon the form whenever we need a different one. Many forms tie for second-fastest, but probably the most useful for a gametime TAS is unicorn form (this surprised me, and may surprise many veteran NetHack players too). A lucky unicorn can get three actions per turn, and does not need the Eyes to see to jump; it's also capable of being punished and of throwing items. So the fastest possible turn movement-wise would be to throw the ball, then move to and autopick up the ball, then jump to end the turn; this is a total of 9 squares per turn, although with strong constraints on which directions it's possible to move in. (It's worth noting that even if the ball hits a wall, you stop one square short of it, and so cannot pick it up on the same action.) Thus, on Astral, and possibly on some of the other planes, punished unicorn form will be the fastest (especially if aiming for the central altar); although polymorphitis can change us to unicorn form in one turn, reading the scroll of punishment will cost one action, but it pays for itself later, and I think all other causes of punishment are slower. (Who knew unicorns could read?) This is such an unusual and surprising result that it may be worth using a gametime-related speedrun just to use that particular optimal solution. In other news, kerio and I worked out a faster sequence-break in Gehennom; I think that you can do it one action faster if you get Rodney to steal the Amulet and carry it out of the tower himself, rather than spending two actions to throw and teleport it; even though you spend one action taking it off Rodney's corpse, you saved two earlier. (Arranging for Rodney to move and die in the right way may take quite a bit of manipulation, though; it would be especially problematic if there was a "frame rule" (or "action rule" in NetHack's case) concerning Rodney's timing. Although I can reproduce the sequence break in realtime, Rodney behaves very slowly; kerio suggests that making him take damage from an aggressive pet is the best way to manipulate his AI.)
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Starting as Wizard sound good to me, because he can have an interesting inventory with luck... but I'm somewhat unsure how quickly you can reach the expert skill for jumping farther.
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BadPotato wrote:
Starting as Wizard sound good to me, because he can have an interesting inventory with luck... but I'm somewhat unsure how quickly you can reach the expert skill for jumping farther.
We can probably manage it some time in the first 2000 turns. NetHack has a massive "turn rule" in that respect; I'm not entirely sure how full the slack time is going to be, in a pure-turncount run.
Post subject: Interesting DOS NetHack random seeds list
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After discussions in #tasvideos about brute-forcing random seeds for the DOS version of NetHack I offered to volunteer some CPU time to brute-force seeds using an expect script that ais523 hacked together which looks for a character that has "one cream pie and gloves" but rejects ID'd leather gloves as "we need unIDed GoP". I started four executions at a time between a couple of different systems and came up with 5 seeds that matched: Start seed of 107121391 found 107743635 Start seed of 109000000 found 109073336 Start seed of 112000000 found 112781909 Start seed of 115000000 found 115168678, 116323878 ais523 has gone through the script a few times with the following known results and I've added my new unidentified results at the end: 1070719748 (multiple pies) 1070719784 (one pie, cloudy potion on starting <) 1070719807 (one pie) 1070719946 (one pie, Barbarian not Tourist) 1070748611 (healer with cream pie on staircase) 1070756800 (healer with cream pie on staircase) 1070941740 (Barbarian with pie and IDed leather gloves) 1071015600 (Knight with cream pie and potion on staircase) 1071026630 (Monk with cream pie on staircase) 107743635 109073336 112781909 115168678 116323878 EDIT: ais523 discovered that all of the seeds above were found on a new moon which may complicate things; see his post here. It looks like I've been brute-forcing seeds in the distant past based on the fact that my starting digits are one lower than ais523's, possibly as an accident in cut-and-paste from IRC. I'm going to re-start with a more current random seed of 1071026631 and let it keep going from there as it'd be a bit nicer if we found a seed that is after 1070719677 (6 December 2003, the date given for NetHack 3.4.3 in its changelog) but before today's date, which I believe is somewhere in the range of 1282848486. The only problem is that it keeps stopping every time it finds a potential seed that may be of use so rather than babysitting this thing I think I'll make some kind of modification to append found seeds to a file and keep searching. I'll update this post with additional seeds of interest as they are found. EDIT: I hacked together an ugly bash wrapper script to launch ais523's original expect script multiple times and log the result to a file and keep going which worked but ais523 updated his script to do the same thing in pure expect which made things much easier. I started the script on multiple machines / cores and found the following seeds (which unless noted should not be from a full moon): 1073469071 1074193552 1150335537 1150368371 1150977167 1151929040 1171505432 1171734503 - Full moon seeds 1203687140 1204989551 1204994951 1205441505 1205660527 1205825602 1206024989 1206304187 1206488125 - This is right around the last seed found in a full moon 1206758104 - GoF 1207823470 - GoF 1208976226 - GoD 1210602737 - lg 1213569620 - GoD 1214758597 - GoF 1215538585 - GoP 1215862154 - GoP 1216149256 - lg 1216915650 - GoP 1219489417 - GoP 1220492288 - lg 1220896430 - lg 1221790901 - GoF 1221941425 - lg 1222084383 - lg 1223450403 - GoF 1223790555 - GoP 1223894567 - lg 1225159852 - GoF 1225857590 - GoF 1226122120 - lg 1227538877 - GoD 1229026754 - lg 1229437110 - GoD 1229842120 1230921242 1233946070 1236619270 1237004845 1239061859 1239108100 1239768400 1239848274 1240918488 1241176038 1241771814 1242041467 1242317606 1243016619 1243047658 1244825036 1245062392 1246109782 1248011078 1248672010 1249669799 1249898170 1250304166 1250413472 1250544757 1252055562 1254908732 1255167369 1256267150 1257020092 1257879514 1259562743 1259814550 1261053706 1262027291 1262328922 1263123466 1264240126 1264356191 1267048451 1267350854 1268990719 1270099964 1270967362 1272068310 1272471964 1272685898 1272895332 1273136150 1275317670 1275588546 1275757441 1279049859 1280699404 1280946304 1281856820 1282112604 1282907342 1282920203 1284136433 1284297066 1284428175 1284576866 1284696010 1285748615 1287026466 1287201143 1287859241 1288063267 1288521517 1288773662 1289485706 1291870358 1292335011 1292923318 1293403775 1293441120 1293561256 1294808366 1294852889 1294861145 1294866384 1296736346 1298221282 1300286222 1300347691 1300777505 1301092096 1302450390 1303527282 1303965034 1304628161 1304864594 1306085266 1307077048 1307761692 1308023562 1308833349 1309508546 1309687528 1309877671 1310107786 1311392174 1311817083 1312126592 1312924966 1314242688 1314714261 1315166750 1315886074 1317602646 The ones I've identified list whether they were leather gloves (lg), Gloves of Fumbling (GoF), Gloves of Dexterity (GoD), or Gloves of Power (GoP). The hex core i7 system stomped the rest of my computers as far as seeds tested, starting at 1200000000 at 6 PM PST Friday and traversing through 1317910677 as of 2 PM PST on Tuesday (~5 days) representing 117,910,677 seeds tested (rerecords? :). The records table on that system was very interesting as well: 3.4.3 451 0 1 1 14 14 0 20100829 20100829 1000 Ran Gno Fem Neu pqa,quit 3.4.3 441 0 1 1 12 12 0 20100831 20100831 1000 Rog Hum Fem Cha pqa,quit 3.4.3 423 0 1 1 12 12 0 20100828 20100828 1000 Hea Gno Fem Neu pqa,quit 3.4.3 423 0 1 1 14 14 0 20100831 20100831 1000 Mon Hum Mal Law pqa,quit 3.4.3 420 0 1 1 18 18 0 20100828 20100828 1000 Val Dwa Fem Law pqa,quit I don't know if I'll have time to appropriately identify any of these seeds but hopefully there's something interesting to be found in there. I'll let the hex core keep going as it's really covering a lot of interesting ground (EDIT: I let it run too long and finally got around to killing it after 5 days - I think I'm finally done updating this poor post :). A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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