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Posted: 3/23/2013 8:16 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1172)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/5403780114311272 For the ninja, my current plans were: Plan A: Slam the ninja with an endless stream of fire, all the while gaining Knowledge of the world. Plan B: Run out of magic potions, take a shuriken to the face, collapse, and die. Repeatedly. ... I probably should have gone with Plan A. As a level 3, I was getting around 16 shots from full MP. Then I hit 8 Knowledge, and this was reduced to 7 shots. Towards the end, I got to 16 Knowledge, leaving only 4 shots per bottle. The MP cost per fire shot is (Knowledge/8)+1, so the rising Knowledge is a drawback for this battle. Even though I hit as high as 17 Knowledge before the mentioned collapsing and dieing, I still dealt only 1 damage per attack. Unlike physical attacks, this isn't randomly capable of getting 2 damage. By the time I emptied out my stock of potions, the ninja dropped to 72 HP, starting from 180. Even if I had the MP necessary, I'll still be somewhat slower in this battle than Uncle Mario. At least I'm gaining another 4955 EXP for Knowledge by the time the GAME OVER shows up. If I remained alive, Knowledge would hit 67. Not bad, but it's only any good if I can get through this battle. One extra level would help. Although 15 MP may not look like it's enough for 8 2-MP shots, keep in mind I regenerate MP over time. The time it takes for the first seven to get through is enough for 2 MP at times. For some reason, the game refuses to let you use up the last MP through Fire Magic, so that's why I can't cast fire to hit exactly zero MP. I walked in with 13 doses of M.Potion. Including walking in with a full MP bar, that's 14 "fills" of MP. One more level, and thus one extra shot per fill, would mean roughly 14 more hits in. That's still another 58 HP to go. I also had seen a 10 dose M.Potion on the way up the Tower. It is somewhat out of the way, and would mean I lose the 20 shot Falchion in 6F, but might get me another 50 shots of Fire Magic at level 4, going by the 16 ~ 23 Knowledge range at level 4. Still short 8 HP, but at least it's just 8 to burn through now. Another 64 shots would be enough to hit 90+ Knowledge with little trouble. Again, I'd be slower in ninja slaying than the Sword of Flames strategy, but my goal is to keep Arm Strength low until Fortress. That goal looks to be difficult to keep without a great loss at the ninja, though...
Posted: 3/25/2013 1:32 PM
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Tristal
Joined: 7/10/2007
Posts: 280
There's a M.Potion 10 in Tower 3F, Tower 6F, and Cave B6. Not sure how far out of the way all of those are for you, but I'd bet the best solution is just grabbing as much as you can and tanking with it. Also possible is refraining from using any on the run up, instead finding a place to hide and rest - but I don't think you use enough right now that you would have enough when reaching Ninja otherwise.
Posted: 3/25/2013 1:44 PM
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Tristal
Joined: 7/10/2007
Posts: 280
And I'm not sure how much gold you have at this point, but you pass right by a shop at Cave B3 that carries a set of 20 for 10,000 gold.
Posted: 3/25/2013 6:47 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1172)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
The M.Potion x10 on Tower 3F is extremely out-of-the-way. The one on Tower 6F is on a separate path from the Falchion x20, but achievable without diverting very far but losing that weapon (I don't think this particular Falchion is needed). The one in Cave B6 takes some time to get to. Shops aren't going to help with my starter 100 gold unless I can find something pricey in a hurry, and even then there's shopping dialogue to go through. I plan to sell the Ramela, but only after it does its job at the ninja. An extra M.Potion x10 and saving one more from resting for one warp, plus one more level, should be very, very close to enough for the ninja. But each HP I don't get while my M.Potions last will cost around 50 frames of resting per fireball (a guess). If the ninja has 5 HP left after these intricate plans, then the further extra doses of M.Potion really shouldn't take more than 250 frames to get. Also keep in mind that I need M.Potions one space away from Fire Magic in my inventory. There's only four such possible slots in my inventory, and I'm using three of them in this run. I have no particular plans to continue right away, though. It's not that I don't want to continue, but rather there's something else I want more. If you're curious, I would restart from Ruins Area 3, as at its end, I didn't turn and jump. One turn + one jump is shorter than two steps.
Posted: 3/26/2013 3:25 AM
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Tristal
Joined: 7/10/2007
Posts: 280
You could always use some of the door open transitions to combine M.Potions, possibly for "free".
Posted: 3/26/2013 6:07 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1172)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
I am not aware of any way to merge items without a Dimensional Box. As far as I can tell, there's no possible control that lets you move items in inventory without one of those boxes. If I'm missing something, feel free to suggest it. Granted, I skip by the Box A in Ruins Area 3, but now we have to spend a little extra time opening it to merge items. The door transition has roughly 5 frames to let you mess with your inventory for "free". This is enough to open the inventory, move the cursor one slot elsewhere, then close it again. Any more, and you start digging into not-free frames. Then there's always the possibility of lag, that's always fun. And if it's important to tweak the MP recovery timer or restore small amounts of HP, this cuts into resting time. Inventory management isn't the issue, though. Pulling together 11+ M.Potions and a level from somewhere is. I have a pretty good idea on what to do, though.
Posted: 5/24/2013 4:44 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1172)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/6776915038888460 I beat ninja. Pretty severe cost in resting time, but whether it'd be faster to find another M.Potion to get around that is uncertain. 25 fills of mana and level 4 is still uncomfortably far from slaying the ninja, approximately 10 HP away, but it's doubtful another potion can be found within 10 seconds away from the route. By the way... Your knowledge increased. Having 24+ Knowledge with the last few shots wasn't pretty, though. 4 MP per fireball sure takes a while to rest up. But it's still faster to heavily rest towards the end like I did as Knowledge is higher then and there's less wait time per MP. It sure felt like the EXP allocation was going too quick during the battle, but it feels too slow on the way through the Dark Zone. By the time I would want to use Fire Magic again, I will likely have nowhere near enough Knowledge to make the kill fast, even though I'm on my way to 99 from the ninja battle. Only 39 to start Fortress... At least the viewer will wonder when the messages will stop. I plan to sell the Ramela, leaving me defenseless with leather garbage and a puny 26 HP. Not something most sensible players would do going through Fortress. This will give me the gold necessary for Invisibility Potions, something I may need during my Arm Strength training. And possibly useful for the odd monster up ahead, too.
Posted: 5/30/2013 6:49 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1172)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/6923418461145484 Finally caught up to Uncle Mario's progress. And beautifully slain those lobsters in a hurry. Seems the extra Invisibility Potions I bought came in handy, as I only have six doses left. I'm now at the point where the long windy maze spans three floors. ... I might want to figure out a path through it. Do I need more Master Keys? Do I need to fetch the top armor and shield for any reason? But, for now... I'm through the lobsters. I haven't planned beyond this point, I just sort of assumed I would fail haphazardly or something. EDIT: As for my choice of route, I pick up 40 doses of Invisibility Potion, 20 of which were from shopping. I can't purchase more without having first found more sources of money. Hopefully, I won't need to many more, as I have just six right now. No, glitching a pit like I did one time will not work on the exit of the lobster room. They locked that door just in case the pits didn't do the job. I need to check what can drop from those floating samurai armor enemies. If the first one I come across has a Blade of Muramasa, it would likely be faster to pick up a Sword of Flames to slay this one for the Blade, rather than take the twisty path for the one I took. Hardening Potions will take care of any durability issues. However, I'll be entering the lobster battle with somewhat less Arm Strength, as I've spent less time allowing the experience to boost it. I warped through the room of switches in that order to minimize the number of times I need to turn around. It looks like a good route, anyway. Killing two arachness enemies barehanded took roughly 200 hits. Without need of dodging, and only occasionally sipping a drink of invisibility meant those 200 hits went by pretty fast. Faster than trying to weave around and hitting the lobsters 300 times, anyway. Got me to 84 Arm Strength, maybe it'll be useful against the few things left to kill. Turns out the Ring of Life on Fortress 2F isn't as inaccessible as I thought. I must have misread my notes. It's not across the pits of certain death, but rather behind one of the many doors that open. All it takes to pick it up is a warp to that location and a few steps, as I passed by the door earlier. The other rings I picked up already are theoretically faster to get than this ring anyway, but it's nice to know I have another option in case the ones I have aren't enough. Also, it's no good glitching past the lobster room. The door is locked. Glitching the gap only eats a Ring of Life in order to get very disappointed. Mentioning this again to drive in the point.
Posted: 3/27/2014 2:58 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1172)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/13592281639251372 Huh. So apparently, when I claim further progress will be soon, I really mean 9 months. Sorry about that. Regardless, I'm back in the mood to clear though this game. The glitch with getting past those teleporter things requires a message, such as the stat increasing messages, to show up while you're moving, and to then press a button to show the entire message at once on the frame you would teleport in order to somehow skip the teleport routine. Since my Arm Strength is still in the process of increasing, I was able to glitch two of these teleporters in good time. I have the Fortress Top to get through. I know I need the Planet Blaster to damage Berebus, and the only way to get that is to fight through something else to get it. Are the legendary armor and shield even needed? Can't I just TAS-dodge everything? I'll work out the answers later.
Posted: 3/28/2014 5:50 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1172)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/13628304150493123 I now have a complete run. The hydra boss can still be improved on, but I wanted to see whether there would be any problems after that fight. Turns out there aren't really any horrible problems to worry about. The fact those six headless ones just wandered around in those spots was just plain luck. I did not expect them to line themselves up so nicely in my route through that room. And yes, all six must die, and it's always the last one that drops the key. The run could be submitted, I suppose, but there's some potential improvements at the hydra. Whether I can be lucky again with the headless is another question. I still want to see how many frames can be shaved off, though.
Posted: 3/31/2014 4:54 AM
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maoushoujo
Joined: 3/31/2014
Posts: 8
Nice work! I can't watch your playthrough yet because my laptop can't run lsnes, but I'm looking forward to an encoding. Since I can't watch, I want to ask; Did you get the hidden Double spell late in the Fortress? IIRC it's at the end of Fortress:8. Does the strength boost from Double cap your str at 99, or can you go above that? Also, how does that southeast pit on Ruins:1 actually work? Sometimes it takes me to the small normal area, sometimes to the big secret area, and I don't know what controls that.
Posted: 3/31/2014 6:14 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1172)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
maoushoujo wrote:
Did you get the hidden Double spell late in the Fortress? IIRC it's at the end of Fortress:8. Does the strength boost from Double cap your str at 99, or can you go above that?
The Double spell is hidden in a 2x1 chamber in Fortress 7F, somewhere in that 3-floor maze. I don't know how to get in there short of cheating my way inside. I first spotted it in my item listing through my scripts. The final boss doesn't appear to care about my Arm Strength, as it increases up two points at no change in damage. I don't know if Double would change that, but it doesn't seem likely. The hydra is affected by my strength, and there are still a few normal enemies to fight by the time I leave the three-floor maze.
maoushoujo wrote:
Also, how does that southeast pit on Ruins:1 actually work? Sometimes it takes me to the small normal area, sometimes to the big secret area, and I don't know what controls that.
Hold B as you fall in. Seems you often jump in and sometimes don't keep the jump button held long enough.
Posted: 3/31/2014 11:51 AM
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maoushoujo
Joined: 3/31/2014
Posts: 8
The little room with Double is a tricky one. When you first pass by that 2x1 chamber it's sealed airtight, but after you've passed it one of the walls will change to be fake. You can confirm that the room unseals itself as the map will show the difference. However, if you take the teleporter soon after that takes you back to the start of the 3-floor maze, the room will reseal itself permanently. The fact that it is permanently missable is probably why most players never find it. Edit: When I say "first pass by", I mean at the end of the maze where the three pillars are.
Posted: 3/31/2014 11:06 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1172)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Hmm... It appears the wall turns fake right as you walk up to it. Just one problem: MP After some quick checking, Double appears to need 50 MP. At the level I get it (12), I only have 23 MP. You get 1 MP per level until level 16, where after that it's 2 per level (until level 60). Level 27 is where I'll have 50 MP. After a quick estimation, this means I must beat up 30 endgame monsters. This might have been a great spell, but it appears I'm far too low a level to make use of it. Good suggestion, though.
Posted: 4/10/2014 4:45 AM
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maoushoujo
Joined: 3/31/2014
Posts: 8
Ah, I should have known that would be a problem. Oh well. I think it would be good to have commentary on parts of the run that aren't obvious from just watching it. Stuff like the Warp spell being a secret, floor gimmicks like not being able to sleep in Ruins Area 6, or the fact that a good amount of optional objectives are skipped like the Headless and Arachness boss fights. I'd be interested in making a commentary if you don't want to. I quite enjoy this game (despite its flaws).
Posted: 4/27/2014 9:29 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1172)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
I prefer to comment my own stuff, though I do appreciate the offer in case I really am burnt out. I've been looking into Double Magic for a bit (well, mostly Ilari, so thanks). Without it, the game uses Arm Strength + sword power to determine your damage. With it active, the game instead uses 255, completely ignoring whatever you've got equipped or your strength. The hydra boss? Dead in less than 5 hits. The final boss uses a different formula entirely, taking 6~7 damage instead of 4~5, but this will still help out. The much speedier hydra kill and somewhat faster final boss victory makes it worth considering going back to see how much EXP I can get. I need to be level 27.00 to use Double Magic. When I enter the hydra floor, I'm level 13.97, so that leaves 13.03 levels to go. If I assume I'm level 20 the whole time, the convenient monsters in the labyrinth (aside from lobsters, whose defense defines them as inconvenient) are worth 8.83 levels. Searching for less convenient sorts of monsters, I'm still left with a gap of a little over a level. Before my Arm Strength training, I don't have enough Knowledge to spam lots of fire, but there aren't enough monsters after that (skipping the lobsters due to their defenses) to get the levels I need. So now I'm left with looking for the fastest M.Potions in reach. There's a 20-dose potion in the store I get my Invisibility Potions, but at 10,000 I can't afford it after selling my Ramela. No other M.Potion in easy reach -- Before the Dark Zone, I already took all those just for the ninja, and the Fortress has a few in rather painful locations. There is, however, a very easily obtained Sword of Flames in a chest in Cave B1. Uncle Mario took it for a faster ninja fight. I won't slay a ninja with it, as I need low strength for the training to be effective, but it alone should buy me all the potions I will need. My Knowledge is less than 40 by the time I enter Fortress 1F, so the damage output and regeneration of my magic is terrible, but at least I can do a few dozen damage per shot, and the potions will take care of the regeneration, so the shots will at least come pretty fast. Now it's just a matter of how quickly I can make the needed kills. On a side note, I'd have Ramela equipped to the end. The defense is hardly meaningful as I lack the HP to survive anything, but it would have me hang on to it as putting the Leather Armor back on takes a few frames and the spare Sword of Flames should make selling the Ramela pointless.
Posted: 5/2/2014 3:46 AM
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maoushoujo
Joined: 3/31/2014
Posts: 8
A flat 255 power? Very interesting. I don't suppose the secret shop in the Fortress could be useful in a TAS? (On floor 3 or 4, in the big room where you build a "bridge" over lots of pits with hidden switches, there's a fake wall off to the side where hides a shopkeeper goblin.) That shop sells Hardening Potions, making it possible to farm infinite gold by buying those and Swords of Flames, using the potions, and selling the swords. This might come too late or take too long to be of use to a TAS though.
Posted: 5/2/2014 3:50 AM
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Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1142)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
I estimate that getting the Doubles spell ready for use for Hydra boss would save bit over 50 seconds.
Posted: 6/3/2014 8:33 PM
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maoushoujo
Joined: 3/31/2014
Posts: 8
I recently got a new desktop, so I was finally able to watch the most recent WIP. Two things jump out at me: Is there a particular reason why you didn't skip the Alexis encounter in the Ruins? IIRC you can just teleport around the trigger point like in the Tower, and that would remove a fairly lengthy cutscene. At the Alexis encounter in the Fortress, is it faster to save her or kill her? (You have the option of attacking her yourself; she'll drop the key on death and won't show up in the ending.) I don't remember how the two versions of the scene compare in length, or whether you still have to deal with the Rakshasa afterwards. If Alexis is dead then the ending will be significantly shorter, but player input has already ended by that point so that part is moot.
Posted: 6/3/2014 9:47 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1172)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
maoushoujo wrote:
Is there a particular reason why you didn't skip the Alexis encounter in the Ruins? IIRC you can just teleport around the trigger point like in the Tower, and that would remove a fairly lengthy cutscene.
The Alexis encounter at Ruins Area 4? I am not in reach of an open square past the trigger spot, as the map doesn't have any explored spots past that trigger, and the only tiles in reach from the doorway are walls and the scene trigger. Warping to the scene trigger square does not let me skip it.
maoushoujo wrote:
At the Alexis encounter in the Fortress, is it faster to save her or kill her? (You have the option of attacking her yourself; she'll drop the key on death and won't show up in the ending.) I don't remember how the two versions of the scene compare in length, or whether you still have to deal with the Rakshasa afterwards. If Alexis is dead then the ending will be significantly shorter, but player input has already ended by that point so that part is moot.
Not sure which is faster (I never tested), but I do know that, if I ever go through the new route getting experience for Double Magic, killing Alexis is not worth as much experience as the thing trying to kill her, and we're very tight on experience. As for the ending, it does matter for in-game time, as the timer is still running up until the final time is finally displayed. (Actually it keeps running after that, but whatever routine displays the time doesn't care after it does its thing) Standard TAS timing isn't about the in-game time, but how long that input file is.
Posted: 6/4/2014 4:55 AM
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maoushoujo
Joined: 3/31/2014
Posts: 8
FatRatKnight wrote:
The Alexis encounter at Ruins Area 4? I am not in reach of an open square past the trigger spot, as the map doesn't have any explored spots past that trigger, and the only tiles in reach from the doorway are walls and the scene trigger. Warping to the scene trigger square does not let me skip it.
That's odd. I know I've done it before (see http://i.imgur.com/x9NhYvz.jpg ), but I don't remember how. I started a new file to try to reproduce it, but simple warping doesn't work. In this screenshot the script is broken - stepping on the trigger square does not activate the scene, and her NPC sprite is just standing there forever. (you can see I backtracked since I have the best equipment) When the arrow hits her sprite it produces an invincible *tink* sound, and her sprite is invisible when facing any direction other than south. I wish I remember how I did this. It may have involved getting into the area through the pit somehow? I'm not sure.
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