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Joined: 9/16/2005
Posts: 26
Location: KY
I'm glad to see you're still working on this Maza. I just seen the newest update and it's looking really good so far. I'll keep an eye on this one.
Joined: 5/27/2005
Posts: 465
Location: Turku, Finland
Well, sorry to inform you but it looks like I won't be continuing this run any longer. Some of you may already know this from the 'Download VBA here' topic that I'm having some troubles with the emulator now that I have new PC. :( I you want more info, read it from there (or pm me). So unless someone (mostlikely nitsuja) isn't going to solve my problem, I won't be continuing this run. Or infact any other GBA/GBC run.
Which run should I encode next? :)
Joined: 9/16/2005
Posts: 26
Location: KY
Too bad, sorry to here about that Maza, maybe someone will finish it someday.
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
I'll just point out that it is Maza's own choice to not continue making this run for now. He can still obtain precision control by using frame advance, but apparently he is unwilling to use frame advance. That's fine, I guess, but confuses me a little...
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
Okay, an update for my run because I ran into another possibly-non-obvious improvement. For those who don't know, this is not a for-publish run because it starts from SRAM and is going for a 100% score on hard mode. Latest version of the run: http://www.kraftfam.org/~erk/nesvideos/mmz-gigafrost.zip The improvement idea was for the Occupy Factory boss fight. The save state (#4) included in the file is just at the beginning of the boss fight so jump there if you want. The strategy was to kill heads to force the boss to switch modes earlier. In other words, in each "mode" you can hit the boss up to 4 times before he switches to the next mode. The idea is to kill a head and force the core to close/deactivate the frame immediately after the invincibility wears off. Here's how the idea affected each mode: -First Yellow, it saved 21 frames to destroy the head. This already takes into account the ~9 frames lost due to using the sword to kill the head. -First Red, it saved 64 frames -Green, the 4th hit happened 5 frames before the core closed/deactivated. In other words, using the sword to kill the head will definitely slow it down. -Blue, the 4th hit happened maybe 55 frames before the core closed/deactivated, but I was unable to kill the head soon enough. Killing the head ended up costing time instead, so I redid this mode and simply didn't use the idea. -Second Yellow, the strategy saved 83 frames. The other 62 frames probably came from both yellow heads being gone and the rotation happening instantly (IE skipped the "head retracting" step) -Second Red, no change. Boss died. So, altogether the strategy saved 172 frames. Not super big, but it makes what would otherwise be a somewhat dull battle into something more interesting, imo. In other news, Occupy Factory took so much time that watching it reminds me of the ~15 episodes of Kaleido Star that I watched while working on it (while the bombs part near the beginning reminds me of the first 5 episodes of Eden's Bowy I watched during that part.)
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Maza wrote:
Well, sorry to inform you but it looks like I won't be continuing this run any longer. Some of you may already know this from the 'Download VBA here' topic that I'm having some troubles with the emulator now that I have new PC. :( I you want more info, read it from there (or pm me). So unless someone (mostlikely nitsuja) isn't going to solve my problem, I won't be continuing this run. Or infact any other GBA/GBC run.
This problem should be fixed now, if you check the VBA thread, so you should be able to continue this now if you want to. (Sorry that took so long...)
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
I overlooked your post Gigafront, but i just finished watching it. I must say though, even though you're making a non-publish movie, you certainly put good effort into it. The WIP looks entertaining, and even escorting the soldier back looks nice, with natural movement of zero too. (You know, checking back at the soldier and stuff)
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
McBAIN wrote:
I overlooked your post Gigafront, but i just finished watching it. I must say though, even though you're making a non-publish movie, you certainly put good effort into it. The WIP looks entertaining, and even escorting the soldier back looks nice, with natural movement of zero too. (You know, checking back at the soldier and stuff)
Thanks. That soldier part was one of the most grueling TAS parts that comes to mind. I thought it only came out okay, though. But, yes, it has to have good effort put into it (because that is what entertains me.)
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
It's been a couple months since anybody has updated this thread. Lemme see, two things... First, Mikwuyma and I chatted over AIM about a month ago. He had found that you can spam-attack using the Triple Rod as well and we was able to drop the time from my 8-Headed-Dragon fight (although there was a considerable amount of damage taken.) I said I would update with that info here... I am. Useful to know. Next, I'm being my usual self and starting new projects before finishing old ones. I stopped data collection for a Rockman & Forte 100 CD run and started a warp run through this game. I've thus far gone through the intro stage, but I'm going to try something after I get a good night's rest. The WIP: http://www.kraftfam.org/~erk/nesvideos/mmz-gigafrost-warp.zip The "warp" path involves canceling key missions in order to go straight to the end of the game. For those who don't know (and don't want to look at my comments earlier in the thread) the path is like so: -Intro stage -Aztec Falcon -Shuttle Mission (desert) --[Escape]; cancel mission -Fefnir Mission (desert, again) --[Escape]; cancel mission -Hanumachine -Neo Arcadia 1 -Neo Arcadia 2 -Neo Arcadia 3 *fin* I've already implemented the MMZ universal reset to start sooner (hold ABLRSs, brings you to main menu from anywhere in the game.) I've played with taking damage during the intro level to save time. Looks like there are 4 conditions which end the "can't win" part of the golem fight: -Wait long enough -Deal enough damage -Get dealt enough damage (~8) -***After a damage be low enough on health*** The 4th one is special because I took advantage of that one specifically. Basically, you damage yourself so that you can only crash into the golem twice. When the fight starts, you crash once, and since you can't survive another hit (and because you did it before the Golem had a chance to attack) it instantly goes into the scripted sequence. 16 health, Golem deals 2 damage, so you need to go in with 4 health. That means you need to loose a total of 12 health: 2 bombs deal 3 each for a total of 6 webs and elec-drones deal 2 each, get hit by 3 If the boss gets to do his floor attack once, it'll be 384 frames before the scripted sequence. If you use the above strategy, it'll be 35 frames before the scripted sequence. Getting damaged so much cost ~86 frames in my wip. This means there's a net gain of approximately 263 frames, or 4.3 seconds. I've also studied the leveling system a bit. Here's what I found: 0202b72c - gun exp (+1 normal, +2 charged) (16bits?) 0202b72e - total swings (16 bits?) 0202b73a - total dash swings (8 bits?) 0202b73b - total air swings (8 bits?) Z Saber: Double Slash - Total 40 Spin Dash - Dash 60 Air Spin - Air 100 Triple Slash - Total 160 Charge - Total 560 Fast Charge - Total 1680 Z Buster: Double Gun Charge - Gun exp 400 Faster Gun Charge - Gun exp 1200 Buster experience isn't gathered until sometime after Z Saber. I start the Aztec Falcon stage with 2 AIR SABER and 2 TOTAL SABER because I hit both Ciel and the golem, I believe. As you can see, there are special counters for dash-slashing and air-slashing, but there's a total-slashes counter as well. Here's some math to worry about: Let's say you want to use charged slashes against bosses. My experimenting shows you need to hit enemies 560 times to get it. Since one causes 4 frames of delay, that adds up to approximately 2240 frames of delay, or 37.3 seconds. Ouch. That's how much time you'll have to *save* with the charge in order to just break even. I have doubts that it would pay off to try and get the charge in as short a run as I'm planning. I'll think about it some more.
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
Watched your WIP, in particularly the boss fight was really impressive. However, i noticed that with both hits by the spiders you fall back instead of forward (like with the bomb) are you sure it's not possible to fall forward with the spiders too?
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
I was intending to talk about that, but I guess that's what I get for posting so late at night. I had noticed that the direction you travel mostly depends on which side of the enemy you land on. I had tried jumping over the webs and getting hit on their right side, but I kept getting hit by a spider coming out instead, and those spiders only deal 1 damage. I said I was going to try something... again, posting late at night... I meant I was going to try a few things in the Intro stage to see if I could do it faster, such as not trying to land on the web thingy, but rather going to the right and then coming in from the left. It sounds kind of iffy since I'll be going backwards to do that, though. But, before that, I'm going to do experimentation to come up with a guesstimate of how much time the charge could really save me. (Boy does sleeping on the problem help to have a fresh ideas the next morning.) Also I'll be experimenting with the air spinning slash. I am afraid that getting it might slow me down (because of the turning left and right which allows me to hit a single target multiple times with a single quick little slash), meaning that I want to keep my slashes mostly to the ground... hmmm... Edit: I've finished my data collection for leveling. For starters, the air slash does break air damage-spamming abilities, so leveling that up before the twin fight will cost time. That's the simple one. For leveling up charge, I've got to find approximately 37.3 seconds to save. Looking at a list of bosses, the only ones I will primarily use it against are Maha, Anubis, and the final X battle. I calculated that charge would save approximately 1 second per 8 damage. Those three bosses together have 192 hp total coming up with a total save of 24 seconds. Nowhere near the 37.3, obviously. But don't worry, I didn't stop there. Once you have charge, you can skip 1 Anubis sand-smash-attack. Even though those attacks take ~10.6 seconds to execute, it costs you time to set up. I came up with the following plan: -slash (04) (04) (000) -charge (12) (12) (128) -cshot (15) (15) (094) -charge (23) (23) (128) -*wait* (--) (23) (635) -charge (08) (31) (000) -slash (12) (35) (094) -cshot (15) (38) (094) -charge (23) (46) (128) -*wait* (--) (46) (635) -charge (08) (54) (000) -slash (12) (58) (094) -charge (20) (66) (128) 128+94+128+635+94+94+128+635+94+128=2158 For an approximate optimal time of 2158 frames. Meanwhile, if you simply used charged attacks: 128+128+635+128+635+128+635+128=2545 For a total save of approximately 6.45 seconds. This brings the total up to 30.45 now. That means I still need to find 7 seconds of improvement. Will other bosses have good times to use charges? Sure. The question is, for 7*8=56 frames, that means I'll still need to do enough damage to pretty much take out a boss. So, my thoughts on other bosses... Hercule; manipulating to stay on the ground as much as possible, I'd only expect to use 1-2 charged shots, then. Rainbow Demon; manipulating to do specific attacks, I'd expect to use 2-3 charged shots, then. Leviathan might use 1. That means that through pure guessing, I'd have 3 to 6 more charges I'd use, but that only brings it into the 33.45 to 36.45 range. I don't think it's close enough to warrant attempting to get charge, especially since this is all totally independent of whether I'd even be able to get it early enough to save time in the first place! (560 hits is a lot...) So, I'm going to explicitly avoid leveling up the Z-Saber in my run. Probably will be good since this means mostly using the gun. I think leveling up the gun and getting the double charge might prove to be more fruitful since I don't really lose time killing enemies with the gun. Plus, guesstimation suggests that a double-charged gun should save time against bosses (assuming I can get 400 hits into enemies before the end... hmmm...) Edit 2: I've finished looking at hitting the spider-spawning web sacs from the right. What I did in the above WIP turned out to be about 4 frames faster than the complexities of trying to hit it on the right side. In addition, I also confirmed that turning left just before being damaged doesn't help... it cost me 2 frames. Therefore, I'm satisfied with my Intro stage. Since I've also decided what I'm going to do with the charging, I'm ready to start working on Aztec Falcon's stage. :)
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
Double-posting because this will be a more interesting post. http://www.kraftfam.org/~erk/nesvideos/mmz-gigafrost-warp.zip Savestate 1 - Aztec Falcon Mission Savestate 2 - Base Invasion Mission Beat Aztec Falcon. Giga smash! Rawr! Ended that level with 103 buster experience. Interesting to note that the bullets I fired into the boss during the battle (the ones that allowed me to break out of the slash early) all gave me experience while also doing no damage to the boss. Yay! Escape Unit'ed the two stages. Kind of boring, I know. Did the base invasion stage, but I haven't worked on Hanumachine yet. I've got to get my sleep for work tomorrow. ^.^;; Currently have 147 buster experience. Have some luck manipulation testing to do; if I dash at Hanumachine he does his jump/spinning thingy, but if I wait a little while he starts his monkey buster and I can go up and pwn him. I have to experiment with other things to make sure I can't get better luck there.
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
Any chance you're ever gonna finish this?
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
Yes. In fact, I'm on the last stage, first boss refight room. I've already beaten Blizzak Whats-his-face (although I have a new idea to try) and I've only stopped because I don't know which boss to do next (partially because it really doesn't matter.) I haven't posted an update because 1) Just an edit will only get the attention of the IRC usuals, I think, and 2) because I didn't want to triple post. http://www.kraftfam.org/~erk/nesvideos/mmz-gigafrost-warp.zip I did a couple of experiments with the Rainbow Demon and, despite this strategy landing him on the far left, it was the fastest I had done thus far. Any new ideas there would be swell. :)
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
That looked impressive! I loved the spike-wall-climbing part in rainbow devil's level, some parts looked flasy. However, i noticed you used double slashes against bosses, and they still would not go into invincibility mode. It's been some time since i dived into Zero1, but do they only gain invincibility when a 3rd hit is landed? Or do you use some other trick? I'm afraid i can not help you on Rainbow Devil though, i'm not exactly the TAS player that can see and improve (TAS-)small errors/time costing parts. However, i know that sometimes when you just stand in front of him, on the ground, he will use a punch attack. Perhaps you can use that attack to your advantage. Or perhaps his spinning-sptting (where he spins and shoots out these small orbs) attack. You should have some time attacking him here, instead of having him bouncing around. Btw, why do you have short segments against Herculios Anchus (the red eetle) where you just stand there waiting? Manipulation? Oh, and, his name is Blizzack Stagroff. :)
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
Yeah, it's the third hit that leaves them invincible. I pretty much figured it would work this way; the reason the trick works is because of the triple slash and because the creators made the invincibility short so that the next hit in the combo would hurt. Because of that, it makes sense that the first two hits would be broken. I think that's a good idea... manipulate Rainbow Demon into doing a better attack. I'll have to play around with him some more to see if I can get him to do the spinning-spitting attack. Yes, the short pauses against Herculios are manipulation to keep him on the ground. The biggest part of boss randomness seems to be distance. Anyways, thanks for your help/reply! :)
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
A small update... I did touch the run over the weekend... (still having trouble getting off of Kingdom Hearts 2) improved the Rainbow Demon fight by 30 frames by manipulating him into doing the spin-spit attack (mentioned above) twice. Stopped just after that, though. Not abandoning this run... I just need to sit down with it for a few more weekends (and pretty much just work on the run and not do much else.)
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
Nice to hear you're still working on it. Kingdom Hearts 2 is awesome indeed. :P Are you replying it? Or are you in your first playthrough?
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Former player
Joined: 7/15/2004
Posts: 124
He's replaying, and if I'm not wrong, he's skipping all the unnecessary battles.
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
Yeah. I think it would be awesomely possibly to TAS it. It handles battle skipping really well. Of course, that Wind Nobody from Organization 13 really kicked my ass.
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
I guess I should have mentioned that a couple of weeks ago the primary hard drive on that computer died. It's no biggie... the run is on a drive that is still good so I've just got to replace the bootup disk. Unfortunately, since I have alternative computers, I've been incredibly slow about doing that.
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
http://www.kraftfam.org/~erk/nesvideos/mmz-gigafrost-warp.zip It goes completely through the game. Unfortunately, I think I can improve the final boss by about a second (by saving for a fully-charged shot instead of performing the last slash I did ; cost is 30 frames but I won't have to wait another 90 frames for the final hit.) This is really bad because that battle was really sweet... and with the change I need to make I don't know that I'll be able to do that awesome ring-around-the-X at the end. Input goes past the credits to save. Maha Ganeshariff was... bleh... but I'm not sure I can do better... hmmm... except maybe with some health? I might need to get a lot... and getting the health might drastically worsen the luck already... hmmm... But, yeah, I guess I'm going to fix that thing with X before I submit. File also includes the following save states: Save 1 - Beginning of Aztec Falcon Stage Save 2 - Base Invasion Save 3 - Final Stage 1 Save 4 - Final Stage 2 Save 9 - Final Stage 3
Former player
Joined: 5/24/2005
Posts: 405
Location: France
It's an impressve run ! I'm longing for your submission... I've just watched it and it's so speedy... I have the feeling that my runs are not as perfect as yours... Good job!
Not dead yet... still very busy... damn...
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
I've been swearing since last night. The computer I was going to use to finish the new stuff died last night. Specifically, the hard drive is almost still working, but windows can't boot up anymore. Bleh.
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
Long time no chat, guys, heh. I guess I have a bad habit of pausing in the middle of a project for... almost a year. Ouch. However, since I'm planning on bringing that machine back up tonight~ish, I intend to start working on this again. Thought y'all might like to know. :) I remember exactly what needs to be fixed ; shots OVER the arms... it can be done! It must be done!
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