Here's some move planning for the elite four:
Lorelei: Crit. bonemerang against Dewgong. Then Thrash.
Bruno: Bonemerang for first Onix, then Ice Beam everything.
Agatha: Bonemerang first Gengar, 3 ice beams, then bonemerang last gengar.
Lance: Thrash first 3 pokemon, then Ice Beam for last 2.
Rival: Use last Ice beam for Pidgeot, Bonemerang for Alakazam, Bonemerang for Rhydon, Thrash last 3 pokemon.
Hmmm, that's 6 uses of Bonemerang, 10 of Ice Beam, and 3 of Thrash. How many other battles are there?
Celadon Gym - 2 trainers - Thrash takes both, that's 5 (I'm sorta retroapplying this here)
Cinnabar Gym - 1 trainer (Note: The questions are so ramblingly long, it might save time to whup some 1-pokemon trainers rather than answer questions) - Assuming only Blaine, 1 thrash, 6.
Saffron Gym - 1 trainer - 1 thrash kills all, 7
Silph. Co. - 3 trainers - Thrash can take them all. Note that Giovanni has an intimidating Rhyhorn, but it can be eliminated with critical Thrash. 10 uses total.
Viridian Gym - 3 trainers - The Cooltrainer should be Bonemeranged, but the karate king can be Thrashed. As for Giovanni, I honestly can't remember if you can OHKO his Rhydon with a critical Thrash. If you can, bonemerang to Rhyhorn at first then Thrash at the end. If you can't, thrashing starts right away and Rhydon dies by Bonemerang. 8 bonemerangs and 12 Thrash.
Rival: 2 thrashes. So in the end it seems Marowak will use Ice Beam 10 times, Bonemerang 8 times, and thrash 14 times. Rage is unnecessary, because there's no problem with Thrash PP. The only time the non-optimal move will be used is for Bonemerang against Bruno's first Onix. Using this instead of Ice Beam will cost maybe 15 frames. No problem.
Well, walking all the time is much slower. However, because the menu takes a short time to get up, it might be slightly faster to walk for some short distances. This requires a little testing.
I got a useless E-mail from Nintendo about the RNG - "yada, yada, yada, our website has some good tips, blah blah blah, but some things should remain mysteries, fuh fuh fuh".
Still no response from Pokemon.com
I don't know if anyone has posted this but would it be a good idea to catch a level 1 Mew (using Growl on the Youngster's Slowpoke 6 times adjusts the monster's level to 1) and then do 1 battle, it will immediately grow to level 100 due to experience overflow on fading growth schedule monsters. Then teach it Seismic Toss, Bubblebeam and Thunderbolt.
Does that experience overflow trigger on any experience gain, or does it have to be +53 or less to avoid being treated like a standard level 1? Level 1 Mew has -54 EXP, which is actually 16777162, and as far as the game knows that figure should be unsigned and corresponds to L245. So basically, is the trigger of "Experience points correspond to a level greater than 100" made before or after the experience is actually assigned?
[EDIT] I just tried it. L1 Mew was piggybacked, getting 215 out of 430 EXP for a battle...and went to level 5 instead of 100. So you will need to make sure that Mew doesn't cross 0 EXP from that first battle, but at that point in the game (enemy Pokemon probably around L10, at 10.0 or fewer experience per level, and presumably the experience would be split in half from a piggyback because watching a L1 Pokemon chip away with Pound would take a long time) it sounds like that's what would happen anyway.
I don't know if anyone has posted this but would it be a good idea to catch a level 1 Mew (using Growl on the Youngster's Slowpoke 6 times adjusts the monster's level to 1) and then do 1 battle, it will immediately grow to level 100 due to experience overflow on fading growth schedule monsters. Then teach it Seismic Toss, Bubblebeam and Thunderbolt.
Even if this worked, I'm not sure how you intend to catch a L1 Mew. Maybe I missed something, but using the trainer-fly glitch, you can only obtain a level 7 pokémon.
I've never heard of this glitch. It might be worth doing. Particularly with a pokemon with a shorter cry. Please describe the workings of the glitch in more detail.
For a long time, it was wondered where the number 7 for the enemy level comes from. Since the first week of the discovery, levels such as 8 or 9 were known to happen, but their cause was a mystery. What's a variable with a default value of 7? The answer, as it turns out, is stat modifier variables. The range of -6 to +6 is represented using the numbers 1-13. And as it was recently uncovered, the opponent's Attack stat modifier is what's been controlling the level, and since the mindset of performing FCBM (which stands for fight-cancelled battle manipulation, the term I've given to describe this so-called "Trainer/Fly" glitch) usually just wants you to dispatch the Pokemon used to manipulate the fight quickly, Attack modifiers rarely got a chance to matter, leading to the belief that level 7 is just what "happened".
So you can find your Mew, or whatever else you want, at a level from 1-13 (though levels 8 and up will require that the enemy has Swords Dance or something similar). As it turns out, level 1 (and only level 1) is the key here. There are four different formulas determining how EXP leads to level growth, and three of them are just scalars applied to L^3. The fourth one is more complex, 1.2L^3 - 15L^2 + 100L - 140. The first few levels for these "Fading" schedule Pokemon require very few EXP--what's interesting is the result of that formula for levels less than 2. No Pokemon was ever supposed to exist below level 2, so it was thought that the hole in this formula didn't matter. But now that you've seen that you can catch a Pokemon at level 1, it becomes relevant. A Fading-schedule Pokemon at level 0 has -140 EXP, and at level 1 it has -54. The game expects EXP to be 24 bits unsigned, so treats these signed values as the unsigned 16777076 and 16777162, respectively. Indeed, if you check the information on your level-1 Mew, you'll find that its EXP Points are listed as a blank non-character tile followed by 777162.
Because the game has no reason to believe experience should ever go negative, that level-1 Mew is treated as if it really does have over 16 million EXP, which would be enough for level 245. If you can get the game to recalculate level on that, it'll be considered as 245 and then immediately be brought down to 100 like all Pokemon of level 101+ are upon participating in battle. But as I just tested, this check is made after the experience is awarded, and if you get enough to wrap around to 0 or a bit more, this won't come into play and Mew will be treated like just another low-level Pokemon. You'll need to get 53 or fewer experience awarded to Mew in order to trigger the event.
As for choosing a Pokemon with a shorter cry, your options are limited (though admittedly the presence of almost any other options at all would be enough to beat Mew in that regard). This only works due to the output of the Fading experience formula at levels less than 2, so you're limited to Pokemon that use that schedule (Mew plus most 3-stage evolution lines). As far as combining short cries with a decent amount of flexibility, the most promising choices I see are Gengar and Nidoqueen. Both have low enough reference numbers (14 and 16) that you can pick them up with FCBM at that point in the game.
Rare Candy doesn't care about what the experience points say, and simply raises level then sets experience accordingly. Try it on a level-1 Mew and you'll end up with a level-2 Mew that has 9 EXP, rendering it useless as a subject for quick promotion to level 100.
Mr. Pwnage, this is the most amazing thing ever. How long have you been sitting on this? ;)
This will necessitate Charmander as a starter for Growl, but that's been the plan anyway. For completeness, I've compiled a list of all pokémon which have parabolic growth:
Abra series
Bellsprout series
Bulbasaur series
Charmander series
Gastly series
Geodude series
Machop series
Mew
Nidoran(f) series
Nidoran(m) series
Oddish series
Pidgey series
Polywag series
Squirtle series
Unfortunately, the only one of these which can be caught before Cerulean directly from a trainer battle would be Gengar, which only starts out with one usable attack, Night Shade. This would make short work of just about any pokémon for the first half of the game, but only has 15pp. Gengar also seems to be pretty TM limited.
However, if you encounter a L11 Zubat on the way to the lower level of Mt. Moon, you should be able to find one with a special of 16 (DV A-E) (or L10 Paras (DV 0-4)), which would produce a Nidoqueen. Nidoqueen has a number of desirable traits, such as the ability to learn Surf, and also starts with Body Slam. You could also teach it a number of TMs available early on, such as Bubblebeam.
Another possible option might be to go back to the small patch of grass just before Mt. Moon and encounter a L3 Jigglypuff, allowing you to catch a Nidoking, which starts with Thrash. It's quite a bit out of the way, but it might make up for itself. Nidoking can also learn surf.
BoMF: 90 blitz? Maybe, just maybe.
The link from attack modifier to level was just recently found, so I haven't known that this particular trick could be incorporated into the run for long. Level 1 Mew and other faders having negative experience and being able to shoot up to 100 instantly was already known, but it took this in order to show that level-1s could be caught without having to use Cinnabar coast and wrap around with Rare Candies (which would have defeated the whole purpose of being level-1).
Gengar does have an attack shortage, but never underestimate the power of being 80 levels up. Even Lick should be able to take out anything that isn't Normal or Psychic all the way up to Lt. Surge in one hit, and at that point you get Thunderbolt for power. With that you should be set, at least up to Giovanni, for whom you have two choices: use Mega Drain you got from Erika's gym, or take a diversion during your trip to Saffron and enter the Psychic house (boosting your "plain old strong attack" PP from 15 to 25 would probably be welcome at the point where Night Shade starts losing effectiveness). Either way, Rival's Exeggutor is a final hurdle. Do you know its HP--the range could go either side of 200, and if it's less then maybe double-Night-Shade would just be a pain-free plan of action?
Nidoking/Nidoqueen would be the other option. I don't know how much time Thrash saves over what Nidoqueen would be able to do, but it has to be weighted against Nidoking's cry for each battle in the game. They do benefit over Gengar by not having to catch an extra Surf Pokemon, and PP should never be an issue here, what with all the TMs you can throw over top of each other. There might be a stat deficiency compared to Gengar that comes back to make later battles require extra turns (if the level-1 battle is against a Pokemon with 50 base Special or higher, Nidoking/Nidoqueen will have 187 Special, compared to 297 for Gengar provided you don't waste time putting the Pokemon in and out of the PC to recalculate stats later on), but given the ability to cover types with so many attacks, I'd think this doesn't come into play (just make sure your Speed DV is high enough that you don't go second against Lance's Aerodactyl), and Nidoqueen is probably the best option.
I just tested this out on my actual gameboy and was able to catch a level 100 Mew and a level 100 Nidoqueen, both in Cerulean city. Mew really isn't any good unless you teach it TMs because it only knows Pound. Also, Nidoqueen didn't start with or learn Thrash (it knew Body Slam though, if that helps), but it did have a decent amount of moves.
I just tested this out on my actual gameboy and was able to catch a level 100 Mew and a level 100 Nidoqueen, both in Cerulean city. Mew really isn't any good unless you teach it TMs because it only knows Pound. Also, Nidoqueen didn't start with or learn Thrash (it knew Body Slam though, if that helps), but it did have a decent amount of moves.
DAMN! I'm a little annoyed that all the work me and Primo did toward finding the best pokemon to get with Missingno. is moot, but I am SO FRICKIN' HAPPY that this trick is known. You guys will be BIG on my "special thanks" list for this run. 90 minutes might be a reasonable time goal. I have no worries about the leveling, because level 6 zubat is worth less than 50 EXP points and definitely when Charmander and Gengar (or whatever) split the role. I guess this moots my suggestion about going backwards at that one point, eh? I suppose we still have to get those 2 poké balls, though, so it'll be trudging through Saffron Gym. As usual.
About Pokémon choice:
Thrash has fairly large benefits, especially in battles against 4 pokémon, where it has the biggest benefits. Thrashes time bonuses are this:
You attack once, costing 2 frames compared to Gengar using Lick. Then...
you attack with just the message "N's Thrashing about!" That message takes 20 frames to display. However, attacking otherwise takes longer, X frames plus "G used Lick!" Without my Windows here, I can't figure out the exact amount of "X".
Cry can have fairly large frame differences, however, attack happens every turn. Soon, but not right now, I'll see the exact number of enemy pokemon every enemy trainer has.
Note: I am definitely manipulating to get level 11 Zubat if I pick Nidoqueen, because they know Supersonic, which hits only 50% of the time. Paras' only attack hits 99.6% of the time. So it is much, much easier to fight that Zubat rather than paras. Jigglypuff knows Sing, another 1/2-the-time attack.
Trainers and their pokemon:
2
3
1
2 (Misty, to keep you on track)
4
2
2
3
2
1
2 (Rocket at end of Nugget Bridge)
1
2
2 (Primo's version fights a trainer with 4 pokémon here, instead of the quicker fight my run will have)
3
2
1 (technically, it's a wild Pidgey, but it's a battle. Note that this is an automatic speedwin for whichever has the shorter cry, because a Poké ball is thrown instantly)
3
2
4 (rival)
3 (LT. Surge)
I'll add the rest tomorrow, unless someone else wants to contribute.
Just making sure, but you are going to level it to level 100 aren't you? Despite the time lost from the six Growls it will take and maybe time lost from starting with Charmander, I think it will definitely make it up by OHKOing everything and only having one level up message.
Mew really isn't any good unless you teach it TMs because it only knows Pound.
I fail to see how since, though Pound is a weak attack, this is one of the most powerful Pokémon at level 100 so it should be able to knock out anything in your way...except for Ghosts types.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
40 power is still 40 power. Gengar can ride Lick up through gym 3, but it loses its effectiveness after that. Mew's Pound can get it further (33% more power in the move, plus Mew's Attack would be 237 instead of 167 for Gengar), but it still breaks down by the time you get to Koga and the rival in Silph Co.
The benefit to Mew would be in not having to catch Pidgey. Mew would probably take Thunderbolt once you get it from gym 3, and obviously it gets Fly and Surf as you pick those up. Strength will have to go somewhere, and Charmander/Charmeleon will have a full moveset too so there's no escaping the move overwrite dialog, so is it worth changing Mew's Pound to Strength or should Charmander take Strength while Mew gets something better? That's assuming Mew's higher stats/ability to concentrate on fewer moves without overwriting, plus the removal of need to catch another Pokemon for Fly, can compare to the absurdly long cry time that you lose in every battle.
I'll add the rest tomorrow, unless someone else wants to contribute.
I have a Excel spreadsheet which list all opponents and which pokémon they have. It also has a lot of other useless information that was specific to my previous runs and test runs, but you should be able to use it.
The disadvantage of Mew is in waiting until Cerulean. It looks like his cry will go up 56 times, which is a lot. Not catching Pidgey saves 20-ish seconds.
BTW, it seems that Nidoking won't get Thrash, because it shoots from level 1 to 100. It has to land on 23, like Snakes and Ladders.
The disadvantage of Mew is in waiting until Cerulean. It looks like his cry will go up 56 times, which is a lot. Not catching Pidgey saves 20-ish seconds.
Ahh ya. If you catch Mew you could skip the Fly slave completely. That might actually be worth it. Mew will only know Pound, but at L100, this should take you most of the way anyhow.
Chamale wrote:
BTW, it seems that Nidoking won't get Thrash, because it shoots from level 1 to 100. It has to land on 23, like Snakes and Ladders.
Have you actually tried this? I haven't either, but my sources say that he will know Thrash, just as Gyarados knew Hydro Pump. If you evolve from a Nidorino, you are correct, but that is not the case here.
Joined: 2/13/2007
Posts: 448
Location: Calgary, Alberta
On Chamale's behalf, I'd like to say:
Whoops... I missed that looking at the profile there. On my Gameboy, I just caught wild Nidoran. So it's different.
On my behalf, how'd ya miss that?
Renting this space for rent.
Trying to fix image on this site. Please cut slack.
As of April 6th, 2012:
After a long absence, here we go again?
