In my opinion, those ideas just came from Metroid Fusion and Zero Mission. Drewseph thought it would be better to incrase the gravity effect just like in the more recent 2D Metroid games, to include the "multi spinning" jump and also some good abilities once you get the high jump.
Don't forget about being able to catch a slope running when shinesparking! (possibly the coolest thing ever)
..and the bomb counter! (possibly the lamest thing ever)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Gravity increase was actually "retconned" from Prime, where the pirate data stated that Zebes's total mass (and thus its gravitational force) is nearly equivalent to that of Tallon IV.
Also, I'm surprised people aren't noticing other cameos and references to the Metroid games, such as Prime's Magmoor bomb maze and the aforementioned bomb counter, Ridley lair from NES Metroid, and all that.
Also, the gravity in Fusion is retarded, but I doubt there's anyone who doesn't know it (after all, the whole motion system is slow and rigid as hell there).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Also, the gravity in Fusion is retarded, but I doubt there's anyone who doesn't know it (after all, the whole motion system is slow and rigid as hell there).
I second that.
Also, for the cameos, there are actually plenty of them. There's just one that I remember of, because I didn't like it. It was the fact that the beam system is MP-oriented, like : the power beam is weak, the ice beam is slow as hell, you can't mix two different types of beam...
It was the fact that the beam system is MP-oriented, like : the power beam is weak, the ice beam is slow as hell, you can't mix two different types of beam...
Yes, and the enemies' resistance to certain beams is also noteworthy here. Fortunately, Beam Combo solved the problem with beams' instackability.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Yes, and the enemies' resistance to certain beams is also noteworthy here. Fortunately, Beam Combo solved the problem with beams' instackability.
It's nice to see game include a solution to one of its own problems, rather than just remove the problem.
I think many of these features in Redesign that resemble Metroid Prime do so extremely well. The control one has over Samus in Redesign is pretty close to the level of control in Prime - exceedingly poor.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
It's nice to see game include a solution to one of its own problems, rather than just remove the problem.
The "problem" here isn't really a problem. Ice beam is good against Norfair enemies, but sucks against Maridians, so it's balanced. It's an intended design feature, similar to how, say, a certain movement speed shouldn't be named a problem only because it's incovenient for you to move at that speed, rather than slower/faster. It's purposefully designed that way, and there is an alternative for those who don't like it, so I think it's good as it is.
Also, the character control in SMR is actually good (that is, it's rather precise as long as you come to certain level of understanding of its physical laws), especially with the speed-enhancing items. I would expect something worse from such a change, but it only took me a few hours to fully accomodate to it. Since I know you haven't got that far when playing it, you most likely haven't really experienced the control features of the latter 2/3 of the game.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I understand that an intended feature could be seen as a problem by some and not by others.
I disagree that the control scheme is good, or precise. The speed enhancing items (Speed Booster, Screw Attack..are there others?) are just as hard to control, and I have played later parts of the game some, mostly to try these features out.
And if the controls are bad for the first 1/3 of the game, I have no incentive to play the rest of it. Everyone telling me how great it would be if I just kept playing does not count as incentive. That's just another quality that Redesign took from Metroid Prime :P
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
How are the controls in redesign any more imprecise than in the original? It's been a while since I played redesign but I can't remember anything different in the controls other than the added gravity. The only thing I disliked in redesign was the morph ball crappiness. IBJing was way too hard and the bomb counter was really annoying, just like it was in Prime.
Imprecise may not be the best word, but everything seems to move faster due to that increased gravity, which gives you less reaction time than the original in all sorts of spots. I realize this could be argued that it's not a control problem, but I don't feel like splitting hairs. Stuff was changed which makes the game harder to control.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Imprecise may not be the best word, but everything seems to move faster due to that increased gravity, which gives you less reaction time than the original in all sorts of spots.
Well, that is inarguably true. But then again, it comes down to one's reflex limitations and other abilities, so the problem is present here — although not with the game, but rather with your personal inability to control it (as, for example, being unable to drive on highway is the driver's problem, not the vehicle's).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Imprecise may not be the best word, but everything seems to move faster due to that increased gravity, which gives you less reaction time than the original in all sorts of spots.
Well, that is inarguably true. But then again, it comes down to one's reflex limitations and other abilities, so the problem is present here — although not with the game, but rather with your personal inability to control it (as, for example, being unable to drive on highway is the driver's problem, not the vehicle's).
In other words, what you're saying is if you're driving on a regular highway, then switch to driving on ice, it's the drivers fault not being able to control the vehicle, rather than the ice's? Am I interpreting your analogy correctly?
While I don't claim I'm great, good, or even not awful at that game, I don't think 100% of the problem can be placed on the player just because there are others who are better at it.
I'm also a bad driver!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
In other words, what you're saying is if you're driving on a regular highway, then switch to driving on ice, it's the drivers fault not being able to control the vehicle, rather than the ice's? Am I interpreting your analogy correctly?
No, because SMR's physics allow for perfectly precise controls, while a vehicle designed for driving on highway doesn't have the capabilities of driving on ice (and thus doesn't allow for perfectly precise controls). -1 for you!
[EDIT]
<moozooh> i just think that in some cases you're projecting your personal problems on the design features.
<JXQ> that's what reviewing a game is about
<JXQ> it's my perspective
<moozooh> and with that in mind, taking your time to write criticism where it's not only useless, but also uncalled for. why reminding everyone that you can't accomodate to SMR's physics each time the topic comes on surface?
<moozooh> it would obviously spawn some discussion, because you're doing it on the forum, and forum is there to discuss.
<moozooh> if it's not done to discuss, why bringing it up and waiting for others to disagree?
<JXQ> my initial reason this time was to point out that the controls are indeed faithful to metroid prime, even from my perspective, and even though 2-d and 3-d are quite different, I still get the same feel. But you feel the need to rush in and love the game every time I talk bad about it
<moozooh> lol
<moozooh> i haven't played metroid prime so i can't compare, but let's call a spade a spade. the controls in SMR are *as* precise as in the original game, it's just that momentum and vertical acceleration values are altered.
<moozooh> which makes the controls harder -- not less precise.
<moozooh> i don't argue it's harder because it inarguably is.
That said, yes, I'm being of the opinion that a difficulty setting or just general difficulty issues aren't the game's problem only because there are people unable to cope with it — there'll always be such people. And being harder in that case isn't the same as being imprecise.
[EDIT2]
Btw, for the purposes of TASing, SMR's movement system actually allows for even greater precision than SM's — for instance, it's easily possible to manipulate the subpixel positions up to the ranges of 1/128 of a pixel, unlike SM's typical 1/16 (not that it's a great difference, but while we're at that…), not to mention numerous tricks with voluntary somersaulting.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
In other words, what you're saying is if you're driving on a regular highway, then switch to driving on ice, it's the drivers fault not being able to control the vehicle, rather than the ice's? Am I interpreting your analogy correctly?
No, because SMR's physics allow for perfectly precise controls, while a vehicle designed for driving on highway doesn't have the capabilities of driving on ice (and thus doesn't allow for perfectly precise controls). -1 for you!
No, a vehicle designed for driving on highway still has the capability of driving on ice. It's just much different and harder. But you can adapt.
<JXQ> my initial reason this time was to point out that the controls are indeed faithful to metroid prime, even from my perspective, and even though 2-d and 3-d are quite different, I still get the same feel...
Agreed.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
No, a vehicle designed for driving on highway still has the capability of driving on ice. It's just much different and harder. But you can adapt.
The precision will be lost anyway due to difference in friction. A perfect driver wouldn't have the same result on highway and on ice, and the difference would only increase with the complexity of a track.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
In other words, what you're saying is if you're driving on a regular highway, then switch to driving on ice, it's the drivers fault not being able to control the vehicle, rather than the ice's? Am I interpreting your analogy correctly?
No, because SMR's physics allow for perfectly precise controls, while a vehicle designed for driving on highway doesn't have the capabilities of driving on ice (and thus doesn't allow for perfectly precise controls). -1 for you!
Technically, because higher gravity causes faster acceleration, and even if the game checks input multiple times per frame, no SNES emulator allows for subframe input, any maneuver where gravity is involved will have slightly less precision possible than in standard Super Metroid. Though in a TAS this can probably be compensated for by subpixel optimization. So that's really a nonissue. But I think JXQ's point is really less about the precision than the fact that he doesn't like how different the controls feel because of it.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Another trick that might be useful (then again, it might not, but still looks interesting): shinespark abuse (SMV/AVI).
The only requirement is that you must recharge on a slope before doing anything funny. After recharging, you have a limited amount of frames until you lose the ability to spark (14 to be more exact). You may draw further conclusions from the addresses I provided in the video (top two are pixel/subpixel speed, bottom two are pixel/subpixel momentum).
Why does it work? Because Samus doesn't regain full momentum upon recharging a spark, and has to do it gradually. You may use that time to jump and spark from mid-air. Since you can't recharge on slopes in SM, it won't work there.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
so.. the interesting part is that you don't need to press down (thus slowing down) before sparking, possibly allowing you to start a spark at an otherwise unreachable place? (or at least to reach the place faster?)
If I understand this correctly, you wouldn't need to ascend the slope the way you did to reach the spark position. Wouldn't it be enough to run almost the whole way up, hit down, start a spark to the left (thus immediately gaining full speed again), hitting the slope and jumping off?
Somewhat like this, just way more optimized? (possibly even w/o jumping before charging, didn't check that)
btw, is your way of ascending the slope faster than just running up? Or slower?
so.. the interesting part is that you don't need to press down (thus slowing down) before sparking, possibly allowing you to start a spark at an otherwise unreachable place? (or at least to reach the place faster?)
Exactly.
Tub wrote:
If I understand this correctly, you wouldn't need to ascend the slope the way you did to reach the spark position. Wouldn't it be enough to run almost the whole way up, hit down, start a spark to the left (thus immediately gaining full speed again), hitting the slope and jumping off?
Also true. I did it just for kicks, to demonstrate the abuse.
Tub wrote:
btw, is your way of ascending the slope faster than just running up? Or slower?
Slower, due to one frame of no horizontal movement per every recharged spark.
Since it is very limited, there are only few possible applications:
1) helping to recharge less/faster during complicated multi-room spark sequences or sparks on heavily rugged surfaces;
2) slowing down a recharged spark without interrupting it.
Apparently, Drewseph did it twice in his run, but since the trick can be rather hard to spot unless looking at it under massive slowdown, no-one noticed it. Moreover, he told me he knew about it after I released the demo, and scolded me and Saturn for being so inattentive to the things he did in his run. :D
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Ok, after long time WIP 4 is finally done!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5622/Saturn_-_SMR_WIP4.smvhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwK2cPEptMA
This is the first WIP with having Speed Booster already. I hope you know what this means. ;-)
Getting the last 2 Beams (Wave and Ice) and early Screw Attack to speed the spinjumps up by alot more. Disarmed the first Guardian at east Norfair. Once again, absolutely perfect ammo and energy management!
Enjoy!
