Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Ok, when I made this thread I never intended for it to become yet another pissing contest. Either get back on topic like thegreginator tried to do, or mods can feel free to lock it since circular logic like what's being shown always leads to spam and more pointless arguments, instead of actual discussion.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Phil, stop trying to pick a fight with me. I never said what you claim I said.
I know how to speak English. All the arguments in my original post were well thought out and grammatically correct. Through some sort of French translation service, you have twisted my words into not making any sense at all. IT WAS JUST MY OPINION! you are entitled to your own opinion as well.
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 256
Location: United States of America
Deep Loner wrote:
I think a lot of good points were made here. I'll just offer my proposed definition of a "pride movie" as it relates to this site:
A pride movie is a tool-assisted speedrun created for ego or for "showing off" that is irreparably lacking fundamental qualities of a publication-worthy production.
"Irreparably" refers to being able to make a "fix" within the scope of the original submission, not within the global scope of the game. For example, the one-lap MK64 run that was recently rejected falls into this category, because it will never be a publication-worthy movie no matter how many improvements the author makes to that one lap.
Of course, there are many "fundamental qualities" required for publication, like fastest time, technical quality, completion of the game, and you can probably think of more. Also, no definition of a pride movie is going to make any argument go away, because nobody's going to admit that their submission is a pride movie.
The idea of "ego" or "showing off" is fundamental to the idea of a pride movie. Someone could make an unacceptable movie by simply not understanding the purpose of the site, like the full-speed, no rerecords submissions that occassionally pop up. Rather than being pride movies, those are simply unacceptable submissions. Needless to say, the accusation that one has submitted a pride movie should not be thrown around lightly.
This is of course just a suggestion, and not by any means a "pride suggestion". : ) Criticism is always welcome.
I think curiosity is a much better motivator to have than pride or ego. e.g. "I can't wait to see how cool this level can look or how much faster it can go" instead of "I don't really care but I hope someone praises me for it".
I'm with nitsuja here. I really didn't give a damn if my FF3 run was going to be accepted or rejected. I was more curious how a FF3 run would turn out than be praised for making it. After all, it was a 4 hour run with 2 hours of dialogue and cutscenes.
EDIT: Not exactly on the same topic, but related-- The rules state "Do not look at getting a run published as the ultimate goal and do the run half-heartedly. Put your heart into the run itself", yet Comicalflop got made fun of and derided for doing that exact thing. Just a little more inconsistency...
I think the point of these rules is to discourage people from submitting mediocre runs, just so they can be "the first" to get a movie out.
Let's say you and I are both doing a SMB1 run, and strangely enough there are no SMB1 runs on the site. Now, my goal is to be the first one to get a SMB1 movie published, but I don't really know the game that well. So I produce a movie, that while it is optimized, isn't much more interesting than a standard speedrun. You, on the other hand, love SMB1 and have forgotten more tricks for it than most people will ever know. Your goal is to put out a movie that shows off all the neat things SMB1 can be made to do, because you really love that game.
Which movie do you think will be superior, in that situation? What happens if your SMB1 movie is a few frames slower than mine, but everyone loves it because of how cool it is? How do we decide which movie is worthy of being published?
In the end, do we (as a community) want a site full of really fast, and yet at the same time really cool movies, or do we just want to see who can pump out half-assed speedruns the quickest?
Mr. JXQ: When I said there are minor errors, do you think I must write a novel? Because that's what I will need. When there a 50 minor errors and that it needs 20 lines or so trying to describe each of them, no, I don't want to do that.
The difference, Phil, is that you are using your phantom improvements as a means to taunt cardboard and I, to try and feel superior to us when things don't go your way. I don't expect you to write a novel, or even a complete fucking sentence, so the polite thing to do there is to just work on the improvement yourself. As I said before:
If the goal is not to share the improvement with the community, the only thing left justifying this action is selfish pride of one person trying to feel better than the other (or perhaps they are just lying). Otherwise, they would keep the improvement to themselves and possibly work on an improved run. The behavior is juvenile and egotistical in any case.
So your reply did not address any of this, nor did I expect it to. You simply tangented off into writing novels, and tried to pin me against my own behavior, ignoring key differences in the circumstances.
Hero's entire point is that behavior such as yours stalls the overall community's goal of producing entertaining movies. If you truly had that goal, as you claim to, then you would reveal improvements so that if you do not get to them right away, someone else can take them, study them, learn from them, perhaps find more based off of them, and produce a superior movie. That is truly a community effort, and produces the best movies in the shortest time.
This is a goal you claim to be for, but are obviously not based on your, once again, hypocritical actions: you keep improvements for yourself, stalling their inclusion in a movie on the site. What's worse is that you make sure that everyone knows that you thought of them, simply for your own self-recognition. This is a selfish and egotistical act that does not help the goal of the site, and makes you look like a, as hero put it, "dickhead".
I know you won't take this seriously, since you and I are not and never will be on good terms, but you cannot assemble a coherent argument in English. Your words often make you look foolish, and it would be in your best interest to avoid lengthy discussions not in your native tongue.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
The difference, Phil, is that you are using your phantom improvements as a means to taunt cardboard and I, to try and feel superior to us when things don't go your way. I don't expect you to write a novel, or even a complete fucking sentence, so the polite thing to do there is to just work on the improvement yourself.
1st of all, they aren't "phantom" improvements.
2nd, I don't taunt because things aren't going my way. I am not even author of the precedent run.
3rd, I was giving my opinion. By default, "I think" should be placed in front of every sentences on workbench forum.
So "I think" I also noticed some improvements here and there but "I think" I also noticed couple of minor errors here and there and some of them weren't in Genisto run.
I may be wrong, it may be indeed "phantom improvements" But after testing, it wasn't the case. And you know that I am right which makes you angry.
Also, you shouldn't consider "there are minor errors here and there" as an insult from me. But you should take it as a compliment. It means that your video is almost perfect and pretty good. If I would say, there are lot of errors, some are major, it would mean the video is not so good.
4th, You can't accept that I didn't like your movie because you did used a different version. So you had decided to "Publicly accuse me of insulting you". Doing so is even more insulting for me.
P.S. Guys, he is talking about his Bionic Commando submission.
JXQ wrote:
Hero's entire point is that behavior such as yours stalls the overall community's goal of producing entertaining movies. If you truly had that goal, as you claim to, then you would reveal improvements so that if you do not get to them right away, someone else can take them, study them, learn from them, perhaps find more based off of them, and produce a superior movie. That is truly a community effort, and produces the best movies in the shortest time.
This is a goal you claim to be for, but are obviously not based on your, once again, hypocritical actions: you keep improvements for yourself, stalling their inclusion in a movie on the site. What's worse is that you make sure that everyone knows that you thought of them, simply for your own self-recognition. This is a selfish and egotistical act that does not help the goal of the site, and makes you look like a, as hero put it, "dickhead".
Where did you posted improvements for Hitler no Fukkatsu when you decided to beat Genisto? Afaik, you wrote in your personal page that you are doing Bionic Commando and then 1-2 weeks later you submitted Bionic Commado. You didn't even asked people if using the US version is a good idea. That's "selfish and egotistical act". That's a "pride movie".
Also:
In Bionic Commando submission thread, JXQ wrote:
Lastly, though mostly unrelated: Cardboard and I plan on improving this run at some point in the future.
Where are the details? You know that I am working on it, why didn't you reveal what you know? I even asked you if you will give me some time to finish it and you answer "No".
And you dare to call people "Hypocrite", because I am not only guy that you did pointed you finger. In fact, I think you are like that. Oh no, it's not me who should read the definiton of this word, I think you should study it carefully.
Finally, after all this mess, saying that you'll improve it means that you agree with me that there are improvements possible which is even more hypocrite. Also, what I try to explain and didn't know if it works is that you act like if your actions are better than mines. And you think you help the site to be better more than I do.
Phil, however you try to justify your actions, whether it's outright refusal with no proof, or attacking me instead of defending yourself, those actions are still detrimental to the site's goal, which you say is your goal. Since a hypocrite is "a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold", this is a perfect example of your behavior.
You're quick to place all examples on the conflicts that are happening to you at the moment, so you're attacking me. But there are several other examples of you exhibiting this behavior in the past that aren't even related to me. This pattern was here long before I was, and it has not changed.
If I say we plan on improving a movie, it doesn't mean we have specific ideas for improvement. It means we'll run through it again and see what we can find that we missed the first time. This is very different from your mocking attitude. You somehow expect me to take your taunts as a compliment?? Fuck you. Your ego is out of control.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I am telling you and everyone else right now. No run will ever be perfect. I don't give a shit what anyone says.
You are often right hero, but not this time. It's definitely possible to get a perfect and unimproveable run. Not on complicated games with alot of lag and luck of course, but at least in simple and short ones like NES' Donkey Kong for example.
moozooh wrote:
To put it simply, I'm doing it because it is an awesome brain game. Saving frames compared to TASers like Hero of the day, Saturn and JXQ is a joy by itself, even if the result has no future. Not to mention the fact that it's my favorite game and I really like how the result looks.
You are top moozooh, but the day will come that will prove your above statement (1/3 part of it at least) wrong, my friend. Trust me. :-)
let's count the amount of finished SM submissions of both of you and call it a draw ;-)
That is the reason why we never submit something yet.
I don't know how moozoohs plan is, but I don't intend to spam this site with "relatively" unoptimized runs. I will submit only one run for which I let me time as much as I need, and this run will make everything clear once and for all.
Though I agree, it will end all competition that is running so well today, which is of course sad, but everything has to come to an end once. It was always like that.
I will submit only one run for which I let me time as much as I need, and this run will make everything clear once and for all.
I will always find improvements in your runs! You will never beat me! HA HA AH AAHA ahA HAH AAhaaha!!!
Seriously, though, there's a WIP available, and it's waiting for your comments. ;)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
i'm just dropping by to say, why (as it seems) is 'pride' being used as a viceword? a good definition of pride is claiming what is due to oneself. it seems obvious that this is a virtue, not a vice.
