-Emulator time attack videos do undermine legit runs despite their intention to entertain.
You can't please everyone. Many people enjoy watching these "perfect" runs which are theoretically possible but in practice impossible for a human to do. Some of these people might find it boring to watch a "legit" video with tons of imperfections.
So you agree with the argument then? Time attacks, being more entertaining to watch, do undermine pure speedrun videos?
People are misinformed of how these videos are made, so they are accepted as legit runs. Emulators can be used to create cheated runs that can pass themselves off as world records.
The problem is not so much that people are misinformed (which is something we can't avoid, no matter how many disclaimers we include to every possible place) but the reaction of people when they find out: Instead of thinking "ah, I understand now, silly me" they will often start a holy war against the "cheaters".
When I first saw the SMB3 timeattack by Morimoto, I did not know anything about timeattacks, but I immediately realized it was not a speedrun, but a tool-assisted run (it's quite obvious IMO). I was not disappointed at all, but I enjoyed it. Too bad most of the people are not intelligent enough to realize the same thing.
It's not a matter of intelligence, but one of ignorance. You aren't any less intelligent for not being able to tell the difference between a speedrun and a time attack. If a run is played through really well, it does not necessarily have to be a time attack.
The other concern the argument addresses is a long term one: how time attacks can be used deceptively. It is still difficult to tell a speedrun from a time attack: I've recorded my ALttP run both on real console and on ZSNES, and I tell you it is still difficult to tell them apart which is very alarming to serious players of the game trying to compete for records. In addition, many legit players are now being accused of having used emulators to do their runs. TSA mentioned to me that his ALttP run was thought to have been played on "Famtasia", which is rediculous. The art of making time attacks is becoming more widespread; players need to make good use of the tools instead of using them to decieve.
-Emulators allow poorly skilled gamers to produce videos that are faster, better, and far more entertaining than pure speedrun attempts of highly skilled gamers.
Is this a bad thing?
Yes and no. Yes, because it allows average players to demonstrate their creativity with the use of rerecording. No, because of what I just mentioned about world records.
An unskilled person making a timeattack of almost any game will most probably get a much much worse result than the currently existing timeattacks in the nesvideos page.
Michael Fried beat my Kung Fu time attack despite not having heard about the game until recently. So it is not always true. I'm not sure what you mean by an "unskilled" person making a time attack; you just said you don't need gaming skills to make them. Perhaps you meant inexperienced?
You may not need gaming skills to make a timeattack, but you need lots of other skills.
But what skills are required in time attacks that aren't already present in pure speedruns? There are still some minimal gaming skills required, since you still have to sit down and play every second of the game, savestates or not.
I disagree. It's cheating only in a certain context.
Cheating: To violate rules deliberately, as in a game. The problem lies with the fact that many of these rules are implied and not explicitly written. Would it be ok to use a game genie code that allowed you to slow down the game?
You cannot do the preceding on a regular NES and it gives you an unintended and unfair advantage. An advantage that legit players will never have.
Advantage on what? We are not making speedruns.
relates back to the world record argument. The people of this forum are honest which is what speedrun fanatics don't understand. However, I have seen quite a few people try to impress me with a time attack acting as a pure speedrun, their names I will not disclose.
This is bending the truth way too much.
Not having a 10-seconds initial screen in each video explaining every little detail on how the video was made is simply a question of practicality.
It doesn't have to last 10 seconds. It only takes one sentence to say it. Which is the question of this forum topic. I'll get back to this in a second.
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Counter-Arguments to the Time attack Debate
Although I agree with much of the concerns against time attacks, there are quite a few arguments supporting them:
-Time attacks can be used to educationally to improve future legit speedruns. In this sense, the time attack serves the speedrun player. Emulators can be used to find the ideal fastest time through a certain level, and give the player an idea of what near perfect play looks like. The player can then try to duplicate that in a clean run. This all works better if the person doing the time attack is the one who will attempt the speedrun. (In my view, this is the time attack's most useful application)
-The people who use time attacks to decieve are in currently in the minority.
-Time attacks do not focus on speed exclusively, which is what separates them from speedruns. Look at the Phil's Double Dragon run or some of the "aesthetic forms" of time attacks.
-Much of the negative feelings toward time attacks comes with binding of negatively connotated words such as "fake" and "cheated" to the videos. The word Famtasia sometimes has an undeserved negative connotation.
-The rules of what constitutes cheating are obscure, and thus to establish that time attacks are products of cheating is hard to justify.
-We should not allow the limits human ability to act as a barrier against what is possible in video games.
As for the movie message issue, I think one sentence stating that the runs are not legitamate, and that they were made with slow-downs and savestates is necessary. It will encourage others who make time attacks to do so as well, which may in turn discourage deceptively using time attacks for world records. Emulated time attacks and pure speedruns can be very similar visually, so it is important to state to the viewer exactly what they are watching. It will prove to the more serious speedrun players that time attacks are indeed for entertainment and not for personal pride. I would also suggest against using ambiguous jargon such as "tool-assisted theoretically perfect gaming demonstration" but instead to state it plainly, and simply. Instead of posting a link to the main site, why not just post a link directly to the why/how page?
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
i found the super mario 3 run amazing because i didn't know it was tool assisted, then i watched again and i knew it was humanly impossible. i think you should let people realize that it's a tool assisted play on their own, that is funner.
Maybe I should make a poll so everyone can vote on what information should be in the movies.
Nah... I honestly believe what is there is reasonable enough... I will profess, Mr DAN made one point about the older recordings showing this info for all too brief a period of time [Not that most people wouldn't go WTF and rewind and pause...] and prolly should be maybe 2-3 seconds longer... BUT.. The current ones are great as they are.
I laid out a reasonable statement of my feelings on this entire issue and about this site in general and merely left it at that. Out of curiousity, I checked out the link only to witness something tantamount to.. well.. I'd actually wish to ask... anyone got some BBQ Sauce? Thems fires and flames are mighty scorchin' and I got a hankerin' for some steak.
Eh... one very adamant person.. I can admire him in the one regard that he's consistent and seems to be quite passionate on the topic... on the other hand, without meaning ill, religious fanatics also come off in the same frenzy as he's shown. If he was far more calm and reasonable as you folks have been, I figure the conversation wouldn't have deteriorated to such that it is... so believe me, I can completely understand why no one wishes to bother :)
As I said though, keep it as it is... the info is on the screen for several seconds, and I personally like the sub-title approach over a few seconds then having to pick a part a screen shot with tons of boxes and data.
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Just another random gamer
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<OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
Why not this?
"[gamename] [purpose of video]
Run by [author]
[other details, IE game time]
This video was created as a compilation of the best parts of [rerecord count] runs, but is itself a continuous play. There are no video edits or cheat codes used.
[why/how page]"
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
This video was created as a compilation of the best parts of [rerecord count] runs, but is itself a continuous play.
It's good, but a little vague. There should still be mention that it was played on a emulator using slowdown, and that it isn't claiming to be a legitamate record (most important). I'd modify it to something like this:
"[gamename] [purpose of video]
Run by [author]
[other details, IE game time]
X emulator rerecords and slow-down were used to create an ideal continuous run. No video edits or cheat codes were used. This is not a legitamate record.
[why/how page]"
Is it cheating to declare that my team scores 100 points for putting the ball in our own goal? Yes. Is it cheating in the context of Pierrot's Rules Soccer? Of course not. Then, do we play by Pierrot's Rules? No. Why? Because it's fucking retarded. You're still just shoveling more bullshit here. You've conceded that it's cheating, and now you're just trying to haggle over the degree of cheating.
I can't even go on with that post. What an utterly idiotic argument.
Okay. We're not playing games in the "Twin Galaxies" sort of way. We are playing these games in the "Bisqwit's Speedruns" sort of way.
Or, in your terms, we're playing "Pierrot's Rules Soccer" instead of "Regular Soccer". It looks like soccer, because there's a soccer ball, nets, and players on a soccer-like field. The point of the game is somewhat different, but to the casual viewer it looks like it's the same game.
That's why we put up big signs that say, "Pierrot's Rules Soccer" on our field, and hope that everyone who reads that understands that this isn't regular soccer.
If you're questioning whether Pierrot Rules Soccer is a valid sport... well, consider that less than 200 years ago, Basketball didn't exist. Baseball didn't exist. Football didn't exist. Precursors to those games existed, certainly, but the games we play (and HOW we play them presently) differ greatly.
It's really the same sort of thing here -- 15 years ago, people only had consoles to play on. Slowing down or rewinding the game wasn't an option. That didn't stop people from trying to make the fastest runs possible. Now we have those tools to our advantage, so we're now faced with "Regular Soccer" and "Pierrot Rules Soccer". Some of us prefer "Pierrot Rules Soccer" to "Regular Soccer", much the same way some people preferred "Baseball" to Stickball or whatever came before it.
Many sports (and many styles of games, and thus gameplay) change dramatically over time. This is just one of those changes, incorperating modern technology into gameplay. I don't think any of us claim superior gaming skills BECAUSE of these videos. Some of us claim superior gaming skills because of other feats we've done, but that's like having a regular soccer player come play Pierrot Rules Soccer -- just because he can play Pierrot Rules Soccer doesn't make him any worse of a regular soccer player.
So, ummm. Tell me how you didn't just undermine your own argument with Pierrot Rules Soccer?
PS: I should point out that, when there is an established set of rules that everyone who participates agrees to (such as an online MMORPG game, or when submitting a video to a source with established rules, like Twin Galaxies) then everyone must abide by those rules. Someone who then changes the rules (by tampering with the datastream in FF11, or by duping items through memory hacks in Diablo) is in vioation of that aformentioned agreement, and thus they can be punished in whatever way is justified (with CD key bans, for instance).
Likewise, if someone were to submit a Famtasia run to TG, it would be in violation of the TG rules, and that individual should be punished in whatever way TG deems necessary. However, if that individual were to create a site with famtasia runs (as Bisqwit did), and publish those movies as famtasia runs (as Bisqwit does), then there's no problem. If that same individual published the famtasia runs as TG-compliant runs, then there WOULD be a problem.
In my opinion adding a overly lengthy explanation at the beginning of each video is needless and in fact annoying. What I mostly feel when I would see that would be "yeah, yeah, I already know that, I don't need to be reminded every time, don't insult my intelligence".
After all, the suggestion of adding lengthy explanations to the videos is caused by stupid people out there. Are we going to add an annoying disclaimer just because all the stupidity?
A short disclaimer is ok, like "This is a tool-assisted run; for more details see http://..." (similar to the current one, but shorter). If this is not enough for the stupid people, then that's their problem, not ours. We gave them enough info for any person with a minimum of intelligence to handle. That's enough.
In my opinion adding a overly lengthy explanation at the beginning of each video is needless and in fact annoying. What I mostly feel when I would see that would be "yeah, yeah, I already know that, I don't need to be reminded every time, don't insult my intelligence".
After all, the suggestion of adding lengthy explanations to the videos is caused by stupid people out there. Are we going to add an annoying disclaimer just because all the stupidity?
A short disclaimer is ok, like "This is a tool-assisted run; for more details see http://..." (similar to the current one, but shorter). If this is not enough for the stupid people, then that's their problem, not ours. We gave them enough info for any person with a minimum of intelligence to handle. That's enough.
For starters I'll say I'm new to this site and I'm already frustrated.
When it comes to what the speedruns should be called, how about "theoretical perfection." Cause even if you are going super slow-mo someone else could probably do it even faster.
Here's a message for Bizquit: (sorry if I spelled your name wrong) I don't care if these speedruns are for entertainment purposes or whatever. I think that any game (that a person can get through fast...aka not Tetris), should be made available. Who cares if it's not as neat as some other games. Shouldn't the majority of the people who go to the site be the ones to decide if it's exciting enough. Now, if a speedrun isn't that great when it comes to how fast the person completed it I can see you not putting it up, but I'm sure that if one person does a speedrun/timeattack for a game then someone else will probably try to be it, therefore you get "theoretical perfection" by having multiple attempts.
I've already watched several videos and I'm quite impressed. The Castlevania IV was incredible. However, I watched the Super Mario Bro. 1 timeattack of going through all of the levels and then, when he got to the final level, mario just ends up dying and that's it. I think that you should put exactly what the rom used was. A name such as Castlevania IV (U). If there are mutiple versions of the rom, state which one was used specifically. So far the Genesis speedruns I've seen haven't messed up. Two have messed up for SNES. Hook and Super Ghouls n Ghosts. Neither have been added officially, but I'm surprised that each of them got messed up within the first minute or two. If the version of the rom isn't the problem then why don't you tell us what your settings are for your emulator so we can view it too. To me this all seems like trial and error and I don't want to spend three hours trying to get something to work that will only last 20 minutes. I got Punch Out to work for NES using an emulator other than Famtasia. No offense, but I think that emulator is a piece of crap. It continuously screws up. It took me an hour and a half to view the Super Mario Bro. 1 timeattack. Why doesn't more people use the other NES emulator? It has absolutely no problem loading the punch out movie and I got to watch the WHOLE thing.
I don't think we claim any of the videos to be completely perfect, and if we do then it should probably be changed. While we seek perfection in the movies, I don't think anybody realistically hopes to achieve it.
For the past couple months the users have decided which movies are published moreso than bisqwit or phil, so really the people that frequent this site, and so the ones that watch the movies, are the ones who decide which movies are published. If those people vote no for it due to it not being entertaining, then I don't really see the point of it being published.
For most of the runs(the newer ones), you can click on the "read author's comments" link. You can find the exact rom version there, it's up to the admins to make it more convenient or not- personally I think it's fine the way it is. Otherwise, as long as you have the same version of the emulator, all default settings will work.
Rerecording in FCEU, "the other emulator", wasn't available until very recently, and until it was people had to deal with famtasia. Now that it is, most do prefer using FCEU, though some remain loyal to famtasia, and we respect that- they're the one going to that has to work with the emulator after all.
I watched the Super Mario Bro. 1 timeattack of going through all of the levels and then, when he got to the final level, mario just ends up dying and that's it. I think that you should put exactly what the rom used was.
NES Super Mario Bros (PRG 0) in 05:04 by Michael Fried.
This says "PRG 0", thus you need the PRG 0 version of the game.
If you put your mouse cursor over "PRG 0", it says "Super Mario Bros. (JU) (PRG0) [!].nes".
(Edit: Noticed you referred to the full completion - the same information is there too.)
What more do you need?
Mkt2015 wrote:
I got Punch Out to work for NES using an emulator other than Famtasia. No offense, but I think that emulator is a piece of crap. It continuously screws up. It took me an hour and a half to view the Super Mario Bro. 1 timeattack.
For some reason, I'm having no problems with Famtasia. None whatsoever. And I'm not even using Windows - I'm using WINE to run that program under Linux.
Mkt2015 wrote:
Why doesn't more people use the other NES emulator?
FCEU seems to be gaining favor.
Regarding your message (yes you did), I am not completely sure what was the actual message, but I am not going to publish all kinds of movies and accept all submissions. If I accept everything that is submitted, the average value of the site's content decreases, and I think it is important to at least attempt to not let down the users who download new releases from this site.
He meant any game should be published as long as it's well played- it doesn't necessarily have to be "entertaining" since people have different classifications of the word. Other people feel the same way, but I think the voting system has fixed it that problem. As I said, the people who watch the movies are now able to have a say in if the movie is entertaining or not.
I didn't see the name of the rom at first. I suppose you're assuming that if someone knows what an emulator is they obviously can then go and find the rom that corresponds with the video.
Perfection isn't possible. I'm well aware of this, but it is theoretical. Now, if someone over at www.planetquake.com/sda/other beat one of your times, then I'd think you could probably do better with slow-motion and save states. However, if no one has ever beaten a game before and recorded doing it, I think they can do it as sloppy as they want to. It's kind of human nature to want to do it faster and better anyway, so I doubt the "sloppiness" would be that bad.
I did speedruns of Max Payne on fugitive. Most of the speedruns are ok...not great, but it was because I was simply trying to beat the level. I was still in the state of mind where I figured beating a Max Payne level without dying was impossible. I mean there's a reason why you can save anywhere in the game. Once I beat the game, every level, without dying...I didn't do it all at once but level by level, I then went back and did all of the levels on New York Minute mode. I smashed most of the times I had gotten previously, sometimes more than a minute and a few times more than 2 minutes. I went back because I knew that I could do better.
Cya
We are not going to accept movies that are obviously improvable. This site does not have movies that are played as well as the author feels like doing. It has movies that are as close to as perfect as possible. We're not going to waste the time to put bad movies up. No is going to enjoy them and they reflect poorly on the site. If you are not going to encode the movies and upload them, don't tell us to do it. Bisqwit and Phil don't want to go through the painstaking process to turn the movie files into avis if the movie will be obsoleted soon. If you want to make a run, and just link to the .fmv (or whatever) just to show people a basic idea of what to do, that is fine. But don't submit it if you can see any flaws in it. Period.
edit: Fixed a confusing typo. -Blechy
Whether or not we want to help people find the rom, we cannot do so. It is illegal.
No video would ever be published here if it was of the quality where a non-emulated movie would beat it, whether the run has been done before or not. If the person who makes the movie succumbs to human nature and makes a movie sloppily, then they won't get very far on this site.
My priority at this site isn't mathematical perfection...
I accept delays and such only if there is clearly a good reason for them.
A good reason could be something that looks funny or is otherwise something the audience want to see.
But almost always the delays are unwanted (by audience), and I'm not accepting them. "I'm just not good enough" or "I'm just lazy" is not a valid excuse.
Edit: To clarify:
The perfection stuff is only for competitors (and self protection - nobody likes their movies being obsoleted by someone else).
Most of the guidelines aim for a visually pleasing performance. Movie makers should aim for both. Everyone has to find their own balance between those two aspects.
Myself, I feel videos should be as impressive as one can make them, even if it costs 15-20 seconds total to display that impressiveness instead of going for the absolute fastest speed. I'd gladly watch a longer video if it was more impressive. That's why I enjoyed Crazygodtechnique - it wasn't a speed run, it was just a total ravaging of the engine.
That's why I enjoyed Crazygodtechnique - it wasn't a speed run, it was just a total ravaging of the engine.
Crazy god technique was boring. I downloaded an SMB tricks video from some site awhile ago that was much better than Crazy god technique but I haven't gotten around to submitting it to Bisqwit's site. In fact I think I'll submit it today since I'm tired of hearing about how cool Crazy god technique is. Btw, this tricks video stops when he reaches 8-1, is that ok?
Edit: I also have a vid of some guy beating the game with only 500 points, should I submit that one also?
I downloaded an SMB tricks video from some site awhile ago that was much better than Crazy god technique but I haven't gotten around to submitting it to Bisqwit's site. [...] I also have a vid of some guy beating the game with only 500 points, should I submit that one also?
I think the etiquette is to only submit what you've done yourself..
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
I think the etiquette is to only submit what you've done yourself..
I submitted Yy's SMB run and Bisqwit didn't seem to have any problems with that. Otherwise the submitter and the author in each submission wouldn't be listed separately.
Edit: I submitted the tricks video:
http://tasvideos.org/queue.cgi?id=387
Yeah, I just watched it, you're right, it's better than Cgt. I especially liked the sliding of the turtles through the floor. At that point in 4-1 after the bonus pipe exit, where the Lakitu comes back out, I was sitting there thinking "he's gonna hat stomp that motherfucker", and sure enough, hat stomp. GRATE stuff.
