Post subject: Morimoto's site gone?
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
I tried accessing the site http://homepage3.nifty.com/soramimi/game.htm which is linked from http://tasvideos.org/Links.html But get a "not found" error. Did it change URL? Bisqwit, I saw that you posted a message from their message board from three weeks ago. Where is it?
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
The root page is still there. http://homepage3.nifty.com/soramimi/
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
feitclub wrote:
The root page is still there. http://homepage3.nifty.com/soramimi/
And the emu movie page is now gam.htm . The filenames have changed quite many times. I have hard time keeping up with the changes :) Truncated, the message I quoted is at page 2.
Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 551
Location: Karlstad, Sweden
Why doesn't morimoto has an user here in the forums? I can't watch his site cuz it's all in japanese :/
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Cazlab wrote:
Why doesn't morimoto has an user here in the forums? I can't watch his site cuz it's all in japanese :/
In a certain way, you already answered your own question.
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Doh. That didn't occur to me. :/ Thanks feitclub and Bisqwit. Cazlab, Morimoto doesn't speak English (like most Japanese people, unfortunately). Some university students and businessmen know some, but it seems the average person doesn't know how to say much more than "san kyuu".
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
In my experience, despite the widespread casual use of English in advertising and study of English in schools, 95% of Japanese people don't speak English at all. Some of them can read/write it, which is a lot easier that speaking, but you can't ask them for directions or anything. If you have an interest at all, I highly recommend trying to learn some Japanese. It's not as hard as people say it is, especially if you're eager to learn. This coming from a novice who speaks about as much Japanese as they speak English...>_<
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
>It's not as hard as people say it is, especially if you're eager to learn. Grammar and pronunciation are so simple that it's almost not funny. On the other hand kanji have brought many a student of Japanese to giving up (unless they are chinese or korean, they learn kanji so fast I feel like punching them sometimes. It's not fair.) Okay, end rant. (Perhaps you can tell my Japanese studies aren't going very well from this post.)
nesrocks
He/Him
Player (247)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
and the funny thing is that lots of japanese words COME FROM ENGLISH japanese IS hard to learn unless you're a language genius. all words sound the same there are so few sylabs (is this a word? hehe) that the words are made of combinations of them and they all look the same. kyuu kuu kejiban jan ken kyo ryu han ban fun pun ichi ni san shi go roku shichi hachi hyaku nen kan gakoou gakusei sansei nisei otoko otokonoko onnanoko atsui samui hayaku yasashii osoi moto mori hon nihon nippon ippon shikashi dakara karada me hana ikebana te ashi hara kiri iku hanashi iru imasu kuru dai ooki chiisai dengeki sentai changeman!
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
I must be a language genius then ;)
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
>japanese IS hard to learn unless you're a language genius. Depends on what part of the language you mean. The grammar is extremely simple compared to say, Russian, or English. But the writing system is probably one of the worst ever. I mean, people understand Japanese when spoken, without kanji, only pronunciation. So why not write it like it's spoken? I don't see how it could be less intelligible. Using spaces between words would probably help too. Anyway, I can moan as much as I want about that because it's not like it's going to change anyway. (the word you're probably thinking of is "syllables". I don't agree that fewer syllables is a bad idea though.)
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
To understand written Japanese like you understand spoken Japanese you'd need to add inflection markings and spacing between words, neither of which exist in the written langauge. but I don't see why kanji is so bad..?
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2631
Kanji isn't terribly difficult. It just has a high learning curve. At least for reading. Writing is a different story.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
>To understand written Japanese like you understand spoken Japanese you'd need to add inflection markings and spacing between words, neither of which exist in the written langauge. I already said that you'd need spacing between words. (which would be the simplest thing ever to add.) I'm not sure what you mean by inflexion markings. For example, do you understand japanese when it's written in romaji with spacing between words? Probably yes. That's what Japanese could have been like, but with kana instead. >but I don't see why kanji is so bad..? I think you do but feel like showing off, but anyway. I learned the Russian script in two days. Now I can read/pronounce any text I like, and look up any word I don't know in about five seconds. I have studied the Japanese script for more than one year, and I'm still only halfway, and I've probably forgot a lot of the characters I should know too. Because of this, I cannot read a japanese text out loud. (Even Japanese people have trouble with that sometimes because of the inconsistent yomikata, but that's a separate point to whine about). If I don't know a kanjiword, it takes forever to look up in a dictionary. I cannot ask a Japanese person what a word means unless I know how it's pronuonced. Japanese kids spend years studying kanji in school. That's time that could be seriously better spent on something else. The Japanese script is horribly, horribly bad and that's that.
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
Truncated wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by inflexion markings.
Tone of voice changes throughout a word. Japanese isn't majorly tonal like a lot of Eastern languages but you can still have two words that are written the same way in hiragana but pronounced differently and with different meanings. So if you went to a kana-only system you'd need to add tonal markings.
Truncated wrote:
For example, do you understand japanese when it's written in romaji with spacing between words? Probably yes. That's what Japanese could have been like, but with kana instead.
Niwano niwaniwa niwa niwatoriwa niwakani wanio tabeta. If you can read that I will give you a cookie. Somehow. Now lets see it in kanji: 丹羽の庭には二羽鶏は俄に鰐を食べた --much easier to understand.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
I <3 Kanji. What do you mean by "halfway?" 500? 1000? 2500?
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
>Tone of voice changes throughout a word. Japanese isn't majorly tonal like a lot of Eastern languages but you can still have two words that are written the same way in hiragana but pronounced differently and with different meanings. So if you went to a kana-only system you'd need to add tonal markings. I assert that you wouldn't need to add them. I've never cared about them and people still understand what I say, and I still understand what people say. It's highly obvious from context if you mean peach or thighs. (I'm eating a thigh? My peach hurts?) Almost all european languages have stress on one syllable of the word, and that's close to never written in the script, yet remains perfectly readable. Actually, Swedish has both stress and tone, and neither is marked in script. And in any case, if you actually needed to add them, how much trouble would that be, really? Compared to say, learning kanji for several years? >Niwano niwaniwa niwa niwatoriwa niwakani wanio tabeta. That's a well known tongue twister, which is made to be difficult on purpose. (And as such not a very good example, no?) How often do people say or write contrieved sentences like this in real life? "Sorry, what you say is too ambigous to understand, please write it down in kanji for me, it's much easier to understand that way" - does that happen to you a lot while talking Japanese? No? Didn't think so either.
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
I've studied 1000, that is, halfway trough the jouyou kanji. I know there are lots more but that's about what I need to be able to read standard texts. You are less than three kanji? :P
Post subject: lesson about the kanji
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
I'm a beginner at Japanese, recognizing less than 100 of the kanji, but I can already vouch for them. In text constisting of latin alphabets, spaces are important. They provide anchors for the eyes to locate and to estimate the length of the current word. When reading text, the eyes jump from a word to the next, using the spaces as a hint. In Japanese text, there are no spaces. I will now show how that works. Here is a sample of Japanese text. Observation 1: all of the symbols in the text are the same width. They are all in a nice grid (except for the line containing the western "2" digit). Because most of the Japanese words are quite short, it makes it easy for the brain to estimate where the next word begins in the text. I have underlined the first three words from this sample text. It is easy for me to do, because the words are written partially using kanji. Kanji are easy to spot, even if you don't understand them. The kanji act as anchors in the text - when you see a kanji, it'll almost always begin a word. It acts as an anchor, similar to spaces in English text. Had the text written in hiragana, it would be (sorry, no image this time): いつもたのしくみてますが can you figure out where a word ends and the next begins now? It's certainly a lot more difficult. The human brain is very effecient in recognizing images. It is why we can read so fast. Kanji-using writing systems benefit from this a lot. When the reader sees the symbol "見", he can know immediately it is something about seeing, even before he has read the rest of the word. If it is written with the syllable "み" (mi), he has to guess from a lot more options and can only understand it when he has read the rest of the word. For this reason, the kanji make the text faster to read, once you are proficient enough to recognize the kanji. Incidentally, kanji have also a compression effect. In this example, the word "tanoshiku" (four syllables: ta no shi ku) is written using the kanji for "tanoshii": it is now broken into kanji TANO and the syllables shi ku. This makes three symbols, one less than if it had been written in hiragana only. This lowers the subconscious search time for the next word, and makes it faster to read. たのしく became 楽しく Japanese verbs are inflected. Due to the inflections, there are some word endings that occur from time to time. In this example, the third word reads as "mitemasuga,". The "masu" ending (ます) occurs very frequently in polite Japanese text, and it is usually the first thing beginner Japanese learners will be able to read. Since it always occurs in the end of the word and it's easy to spot, it makes up for an anchor (see the beginning of this post). The "ga," in this word is actually a particle meaning "but," or "because,". And yes, the kanji are very essential in differentiating words that are otherwise pronounced the same way. kami = 神 = god. kami = 紙 = paper. kami = 髪 = hair. Like I said earlier, readers who recognize these kanji will understand the meaning from kanji much faster than from the hiragana. This is why they are used. And because they're shorter than " かみ" (kami). Even without the kanji, the readers could understand the meaning from the context, exactly like in speech. But kanji just makes it faster to read. Only when the word is written separately without context, a kanji is necessary.
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
"<3" is a heart (picture it turned on its side) "I love kanji" was my sentiment.
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
Truncated wrote:
How often do people say or write contrieved sentences like this in real life? "Sorry, what you say is too ambigous to understand, please write it down in kanji for me, it's much easier to understand that way" - does that happen to you a lot while talking Japanese? No? Didn't think so either.
It's perfectly understandable aloud, though (see discussion of tone above). It only becomes confusing when it's written, and not in Kanji.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.