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Posted: 11/16/2007 4:58 PM
Post subject: Sonic the Hedgehog 2
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sgrunt
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Joined: 10/28/2007
Posts: 1360
Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
Forking from the generic thread to discuss issues specific to this game. Considering starting a TAS for this myself. Before I do that, I wanted to argue in favour of a 100% run, i.e. getting all of the emeralds so as to be able to play through Crystal Egg Zone (this is what I would be aiming for in a TAS of my own). Also, I wanted to note that this game was one of the first I can remember ever playing and caused me no end of anguish when younger. I want to see it thrashed. :-p
Posted: 11/16/2007 5:19 PM
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Mitjitsu
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TAS of 2007 N64 TAS of 2007
Just remember I've done a semi optimalish TAS of the [URL=http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/773279166/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_2_%28UE%29_%5B%21%5D.mmv] first level [/url] I'm almost certain you can get a unit lower. L+R causes sonic to zip backwards but I doubt it has any use.
Posted: 11/16/2007 6:10 PM
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superjupi
Joined: 10/15/2007
Posts: 685
Glad someone else is in favor of a 100% run. I've been trying to jog my memory as to the locations of the Chaos Emeralds (and in doing so, have been cursing the developers for the ludicrous placement of the Emerald in Zone 2).
Kirby said so, so it must be true. ( >'.')>
Posted: 11/16/2007 9:21 PM
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mike89
Active player (304)
Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
Luckily, zone 2's emerald just happens to be on the ideal path! Reference video
Posted: 11/16/2007 11:53 PM
(Edited: 11/17/2007 7:21 AM)
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sgrunt
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Joined: 10/28/2007
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Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
I've been playing around a bit and shaved a unit off AKA's test run to give 00:18 on the first stage without a lot of effort. TSC lists 00:17 as the best time, which seems to be the feasible limit without a huge amount of optimisation work. Comment: the score tally screen is going to get annoying VERY quickly here, I think. :-p EDIT: AKA, I found a use for your L+R glitch; it's perfect for backtracking after getting the Emerald in UG2 (for 100% runs). Here's a demo continuing off from my previous WIP; the run in UG2 if completed as a pure run gave 00:18 (clearly not optimised, but that's not what it's meant for at present) and getting the emerald added four units to 00:22. EDIT 2: Just so I don't feel incomplete, here's the entire Underground Zone. I want some silly ideas for what I can do during the boss fight if and when I do these levels again. :-)
Posted: 11/17/2007 3:46 AM
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N._Harmonik
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Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada
superjupi wrote:
Glad someone else is in favor of a 100% run. I've been trying to jog my memory as to the locations of the Chaos Emeralds (and in doing so, have been cursing the developers for the ludicrous placement of the Emerald in Zone 2).
I uh, er, um, third the vote! After all, this person's already seconded it. Don't forget a YouTube version please!
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Posted: 11/18/2007 12:14 AM
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sgrunt
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Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
I've improved UG2 and UG3 for an overall improvement of 147 frames over my previous run. UG2's in-game timer is still 00:22 (around 25 frames improved) and UG3 now stands at 00:58 (for around 122 frames improvement). WIP can be found here.
Posted: 11/18/2007 5:04 AM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
sgrunt wrote:
I've improved UG2 and UG3 for an overall improvement of 147 frames over my previous run. UG2's in-game timer is still 00:22 (around 25 frames improved) and UG3 now stands at 00:58 (for around 122 frames improvement). WIP can be found here.
The only problem i had with this wip was the wobbling while fighting the boss. i think it detracts from the movie when sonic faces left, then right then left again very quickly and multiple times in succession. aside from that, looked pretty good... good work!
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 11/18/2007 5:13 AM
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sgrunt
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stickyman05 wrote:
The only problem i had with this wip was the wobbling while fighting the boss. i think it detracts from the movie when sonic faces left, then right then left again very quickly and multiple times in succession.
Thanks for watching the WIP. I'm open to suggestions as to what I can be doing during this boss fight as it's purely time-based so long as Sonic avoids everything properly; the wobbling was just the first thing that came to mind (in addition to cutting as close to the projectiles as close as I dared and jumping at the exact instant they bounced where possible).
Posted: 11/18/2007 2:23 PM
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N._Harmonik
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YouTube version...please?
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Posted: 11/18/2007 5:38 PM
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sgrunt
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N. Harmonik wrote:
YouTube version...please?
Since you asked so nicely...
Posted: 11/18/2007 9:58 PM
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SXL
Joined: 2/7/2005
Posts: 571
sgrunt wrote:
I am open to suggestions for entertaining things to do at the boss fight, as at least one person has complained about the wobbling.
great work so far. you could improve the boss part by cheating death a lot more, like following the ball at the closest possible distance, and escaping the ball right before the bottom. that is what that was supposed to be the trap there, a normal player would "struggle" to jump the slope upwards, why not showing how easily it could be done tool-assisted ?
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
Posted: 11/18/2007 10:36 PM
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sgrunt
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Continuing on from my previous WIP, here is one that includes the Sky High Zone. I did not lose any units collecting the Emerald thanks to a fluke, though I was expecting not to due to mike89's observation that it's right in the ideal path. Also, the inconsistency in the game's timer is beginning to annoy me; I'm fairly sure Act 1 in both cases is extremely close to optimal but both display a unit higher than TSC's record because the timer starts at 00:01 for both levels. Watch closely for where the timer starts in each level - most also start at 00:01, though SH2 has about half a second of 00:00.
Posted: 11/18/2007 11:41 PM
(Edited: 11/19/2007 12:04 AM)
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Quietust
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Joined: 7/14/2004
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On Underground 3 and Sky High 1, is there a reason why you didn't back off to the left on a few of the vertical springs to avoid clipping against the edge of the ledge above them (and thus preserve horizontal velocity)? [edit] meant Underground 3, not 1
* Quietust, QMT Productions P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
Posted: 11/18/2007 11:50 PM
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sgrunt
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Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
Quietust wrote:
On Underground 1 and Sky High 1, is there a reason why you didn't back off to the left on a few of the vertical springs to avoid clipping against the edge of the ledge above them (and thus preserve horizontal velocity)?
Did you mean Underground 3? I can't see any spots in UG1 that match what you describe. I'm not sure that this will yield a strong improvement, but I will see what it does as I am planning on going back and re-recording UG3 at least to make the boss fight more entertaining. I may even be able to skip the last spring entirely, similar to the ending of SH2.
Posted: 11/19/2007 12:57 AM
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N._Harmonik
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Posts: 502
Location: Canada
It's nice to see a boss you always had trouble with getting its buttocks (?) kicked.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Posted: 11/19/2007 2:56 AM
(Edited: 11/19/2007 3:39 AM)
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sgrunt
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Joined: 10/28/2007
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Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
Thanks to Quietust's suggestion I've shaved a unit off of UGZ3 and SHZ1. Due to the erratic nature of the game's timer SHZ2 loses a unit and SHZ3 gains a unit despite being completely identical to the previous WIP. EDIT: Oh yeah - the UGZ3 boss fight is a lot more entertaining now (and a lot more fun to make, too). :-p
Posted: 11/19/2007 3:21 AM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
DAMN! that boss battle was infinitely improved! good work man. i saw no other blatently obvious improvements for this new wip, so cant wait to see another!
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 11/19/2007 3:42 AM
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paul_t
Emulator Coder, Former player
Joined: 8/12/2007
Posts: 102
Nice job so far. I wanted to see if you are aware of this glitch. I'm not sure if it's useful though since I haven't been able to end the level this way. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/929517658/glitch.mmv
Posted: 11/19/2007 3:46 AM
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sgrunt
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Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
paul_t wrote:
[...]I wanted to see if you are aware of this glitch.
I did come across this in the process of making the jump there (which was annoying, as it requires essentially frame-perfect precision). As far as I can tell it has no real use. EDIT: Here is an encoding of my most recent WIP.
Posted: 11/20/2007 2:29 AM
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N._Harmonik
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Location: Canada
Very good though I have to wonder if the second boss is optimized enough since you didn't hit it at a steady pace. And what about spin dashing? Is it really slower in this game?
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Posted: 11/20/2007 2:32 AM
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Quietust
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There is no spin dashing in this game.
* Quietust, QMT Productions P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
Posted: 11/20/2007 3:08 AM
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sgrunt
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N. Harmonik wrote:
Very good though I have to wonder if the second boss is optimized enough since you didn't hit it at a steady pace.
The thing with the second boss is that Sonic is thrown back on scoring a hit. The trick with bouncing on the head between the second and third hits surprisingly only worked for those two hits; it proved effectively impossible to repeat with the other hits and so I had to resort to the more conventional tactic used there. It would take a lot of experimenting and thought to develop a more workable tactic here, I think.
Posted: 11/20/2007 12:50 PM
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mike89
Active player (304)
Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
My turn! I talked with sgrunt about his run a bit in IRC and said I'd try a few things out myself. The result? This. I said I'd prefer in-game time but I decided that was annoying and thought better of it. >_>
Posted: 11/20/2007 3:58 PM
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sgrunt
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Joined: 10/28/2007
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Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
It would appear that I've been bested on UGZ2; I knew that my run there was not as optimised as it could have been so this helps greatly. For the record, I was experimenting with hexing frames during the dead time at the level intro screens into my earlier run to bring the timers to 00:00. What I discovered is that this subtly alters the lag patterns in the game such that it causes desyncs several levels in, e.g. bringing UGZ1 to 00:00 (which did cause the level to end at 00:17, btw) caused my UGZ2 to desync variously at the second jump and at the roll leading into the jump over the second mine cart.
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