I pulled the quotes below from the Zelda topic. This post is partially in response to comments made in that topic, but it is also a general response to comments I've seen elsewhere by people from here. I am posting this here since I do not want to pollute that topic.
"No one has said that there are no rerecordings afaik."
Actually, I've seen some of you announce your video at message boards with a direct link to it without saying anything about your methods. In every case it has caused an uproar. It was only after the flamings that disclaimers became standard procedure. I'm not saying that the intent here was deception, but it was very unwise and resulted in a lot of unnecessary confusion and anger.
"Hmm, ignorant people. If they read the f.a.q they would know that it is no secret that save states have been used."
I'm getting very tired of seeing comments like this one. We understand what you're doing. It is you who do not understand us, and hopefully my post will clarify this. These "ignorant/uninformed" people (like MKM at TG) are not ignorant or uninformed at all. They know exactly how the time attack videos are created and what the goals are. The problem is the differing views on what "cheating" is. Gamers like MKM and myself feel that you are cheating at the game by using save states and slomo. Consider the definition of cheating, and I don't see how any rational person could believe otherwise. It is cheating at playing the game.
However, you're playing the game as a means to an end. Your goal is to make a perfect movie, and you use any means you can to do this. You aren't concerned with the "gamer" rules of playing the game because that is not your goal. I understand this, but it doesn't change the fact that the methods used are considered cheating by basically all serious gamers. This distinction may not be important to you as movie makers, but it is important to gamers who, ironically, happen to be your target audience. It's really no surprise that your videos are sometimes greeted with hostility.
Using save states and slomo is cheating to me regardless of how open about it you are. Being open about it just makes you an honest cheater. ;)
I think most of you are motivated by your love of NES games which is good. I've found some of the videos helpful, and some of them are fun to watch. I know many gamers feel the same way. Just continue to be open about what you're doing and let the viewers judge the results.
Of course we're cheating at 'playing the game'. But that's not what we're doing, is it?
It takes a completely different kind of skill to perform a full capture on a game and to do the same perfectly. Of course, gaming skills help, but they matter less with rerecord and such. It is much, much harder to produce a good-looking clean run, though, and for that I praise you and the others at Twin Galaxies.
Speaking of clean runs, I'm planning on making clean runs of Zelda 2 (from save and from new), Rockman X (100% and minimalist) and Rockman X2 (100% and minimalist) to claim those records over at TG, just because no-one competent has ever played them, apparently. I suck at games, so I don't expect my records to be there long.
Good luck on your Bionic Commando and Blaster Master runs! The best clean run I've seen for Blaster Master is 1:03, so if you're actually going for a record, that's your time to beat, not the 1:12 that nets you the $25 bounty at TG.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
However, you're playing the game as a means to an end. Your goal is to make a perfect movie, and you use any means you can to do this. You aren't concerned with the "gamer" rules of playing the game because that is not your goal. I understand this, but it doesn't change the fact that the methods used are considered cheating by basically all serious gamers.
Yes. The goal is to make a perfect game.
Compare it to a Rambo movie. In the movie Rambo did everything perfectly, kills everyone and returns to base. In the real life, Rambo would have screwed up after half an hour and get killed.
The time attack makers want to make perfection (like in the rambo movie) and do not care about the means to do it (cheat with emulators).
About the ignorant people remark; I read that topic that was linked to from this forum and was disgusted by the attitude. There was no paying respect to that time attack makers have a different goal (make a perfect movie). 'I looked at his movie and it had XXXXX rerecordings. Haha he is a cheater, he did not even do this or that right, he suck, we are so good' is a sum up from that topic.
I like watching a good speed run that requires extreme gaming skills and reflexes, but this is a whole different thing.
I respect that they think that they have a different view on what cheating is (which they do not, since I do also think that save states and slow mo is cheating), but that is not the point. Time attack making is a whole other concept, and if you can respect that they are doing a different thing (recording a perfect movie, not make a skillful run from beginning to end) instead of cuss down on them, well then I wont think that you are ignorant any more.
Ok you are getting tired of of seeing comments like mine, and on the other hand I am getting tired of that kind of attitude that comes from the other forum, especially if they now grasp the concept of time attacks and still deride the makers of them.
I think your post here has a nice attitude. If I would have seen the same attitude in that other forum, I would never have made that statement.
Last time i played half life i used loads of save states, whas that cheating??? IMO it's not because even if it's just once you pass every single part of the game and you do it right, and it's just the same for emus.
Last time i played half life i used loads of save states, whas that cheating??? IMO it's not because even if it's just once you pass every single part of the game and you do it right, and it's just the same for emus.
Saveing and loading is a buildt in mechanism in half life. Therefore it is not cheating to use it. An emulator adds mechanisms that are not in the game originally, thus using them is cheating.
Personnally I prefer seeing a perfect timeattack than seeing only a good play.By the way I don't have any proof that you're not doing the same thing as us!?
By the way I don't have any proof that you're not doing the same thing as we!?
There are many (sometimes arbitrary) rules that Twin Galaxies has to weed out people who try to do stuff like us and pass it off as a clean run. Just trust me (and them) when I say they're clean.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Many people are in fact ignorant. Go check many forums. Some still believe we do these "frame by frame" (of course that's untrue) and automatically assume that it is thus very easy to make a time attack video when hardly any of them have ever tried; others assume that we spend years making them! The problem is that these have become very widespread misconceptions which contribute to the growing ignorance. Many fail to realize that it is very difficult to achieve perfection and in these videos, and I believe that the main reason avid gamers mad at us is because our videos look like they're played better than their "genuine attempts" and what further angers them is that the large bulk of people still believe that we played the time attacks with pure skill. Moreover, more people are willing to see a time attack than speed run which gets on their nerves. Uninformed people who call us "gaming gods" just add to the problem. Speed run gamers feel undermined so they resort to name-calling, and the debate grows between time attacks and speed runs. But without time attacks I wouldn't know the ideal time to beat. I myself make both time attacks and speed runs with different intentions in each. I am not a cheater; I use time attacks to help me make better speed runs. If we work together and end the pointless flaming, we can help clear up these misconceptions. To me, one relates to theory, and the other is a definition of skill.
Are we cheating? Yes, I guess we are. However, that is not the point. You are right and it is much more impressive to do without cheating. I just do this in my spare time because I am bored. I do not have the patience to play a game for a year to master it perfectly and then make a decent speed run. This allows me to make these movies in a few days that are really fun to watch. I'm just making these movies because they are really fun to watch. I know that this makes your movies seem not as impressive, even though they take much work and skill, and I'm sorry for this. You are absoutly right that it is cheating though. Still, I don't think that there is anything wrong with these movies, but as you said, people should know what we are doing.
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
sdkess7 wrote:
You aren't concerned with the "gamer" rules of playing the game because that is not your goal. I understand this, but it doesn't change the fact that the methods used are considered cheating by basically all serious gamers.
"Serious Gamers" is, in my opinion, an absurd oxymoron. Games are supposed to be fun, and most of these games we are playing were designed for children. If you guys want to practice for days/weeks/whatever to produce an "authentic" speed-run, I hope to Christ you're enjoying yourself. Otherwise you should stop.
I'm glad that people here took my comments as I intended them for the most part. I appreciate your civility Boco, Deviance, cat, et al. I'm definitely not trying to criticize what you're doing or say it is inherently "wrong" in any way. You have a right to play the game any way that you want to, by your own rules, and your efforts produce very good results. I was just hoping to give some insight into why some gamers (who think along the same lines as I do) view your time attacks in a negative way.
I've used "cheating" features in emulators myself when experimenting with various tricks in a game. Generally, there are no set "rules" for how you practice your gameplay so nobody really cares if I do this. I also used the 30 man code for Contra the last time I played it with a friend. It's cheating, yes, but it's a lot more fun since my buddies rarely get past the first level without it, and they end up stealing all of my men :) For any public or "official" gaming accomplishments, I always play clean and always will.
I think Deviance's post is well thought out and probably close to the mark. I think a lot of "clean" players, especially ones that make videos, have felt undermined by the time attacks, and rightly so. I felt that way to an extent, but I don't mind so much because I didn't really like capturing videos to begin with. It's time consuming and the process is a chore. I mainly started doing it for proof purposes (I don't enjoy being called a liar) and also because I was getting a lot of requests. Now that I'm involved over at TG, capturing my videos for proof is no longer a necessity. I also get less requests now that the time attacks are around. On the bright side, less time capturing videos means more time for playing games!
The only response to my original post that seemed pissy was feitclub's. My response:
""Serious Gamers" is, in my opinion, an absurd oxymoron. Games are supposed to be fun, and most of these games we are playing were designed for children."
I like playing these games precisely because I enjoyed them as a child. They are fun to me, and I don't think being a serious gamer is an oxymoron at all if professional sports isn't. The games they play were designed for fun, but pro athletes take them very seriously while still having fun. "Fun" and "serious" are not mutually exclusive. Almost any pursuit or hobby can become "serious" without being an oxymoron.
"If you guys want to practice for days/weeks/whatever to produce an "authentic" speed-run, I hope to Christ you're enjoying yourself. Otherwise you should stop."
I play games because I like them and because I consider myself good at them. I also enjoy competition so that's why I compete for records. I don't understand how you could possibly question my motives for playing cleanly when what you're doing with time attacks would be dreadfully boring, tedious, and completely unfulfilling for me. I gain my satisfaction from actually playing, not from trying to impress anyone. I sincerely hope you find making time attacks fun or else you should take your own advice and stop.
EDIT: Removed some potentially inflammatory comments I made which really weren't necessary.
I think I may be one of the few on these boards who don't think video games are life. So as not to start a flame war about this, you know what I mean. I probably take them a lot less seriously than you guys. I find them a hobby.
While there are some informed people about these emulator runs, a lot are ignorant. Not necessarily TG. Every message board with the topic about the SMB3 in 11 minutes vid has that one smart ass who can explain it. "It's not real. He cheated." It's suprising how many people believe it's legit, and how many people who know it's not legit that call it cheating.
I had a hard time explaining to someone (someone from TG, mind you) that these videos *could happen.* He insisted that they were video editted, and things in the game were impossible. This simply is not the case.
I don't really mind the misconceptions, though. After all, these emulator runs are a relatively new thing.
I think people get upset when the goals are confused. I haven't seen anyone claim they are skilled gamers for making the video. No one has made a perfect video and tried to pass it off as real, to get some title. The goal is to make an entertaining movie. I've learned a lot from these movies. Tricks that I could do! (Like jumping over the ceiling in Mario 2.) For games that I've played for over 10 years, it's a great thrill to see another, better way of playing them.
We recently refined the Zelda 1 route, that with perfect fighting will come to sub-28 minutes. Using this route, the world records could be shattered, easily, by the good players. In the TG boards though, they boasted how us cheaters will never know all the secrets they do. What's the point of that kind of thing? Why not share the information?
sdkess, did you watch the Ronin video of SMW before doing your WR run? Did it inspire you, or show you something you didn't know? Will you share how you shaved off 30 seconds? Would you be upset if I told?
A rerecording device is being worked on for the SNES. If a lot of people didn't think that this was cheating, as they do, they wouldn't be so against it. There's no denying that a lot of TG game experts hate us for making videos that show all the secrets.
I agree with you 100% that what we do is cheating... if we tried to say that we are playing the game. But we're not. We're just saying, "Check out this kickass movie of the game." We wouldn't mind so much if we were called researchers, or something. We're making, often times, excellent strategy guides.
Really, the whole thing is stupid. I can't believe that this is really an argument. It's so trivial. But in honesty, we didn't start it. Those whose prides are hurt because they can't do it as fast, or those who say, "I wish I thought of that," mind. So it's easier to discredit the videos than compliment the hard work that was put into them.
People who get offended by emulators need to go outside. I feel dorky enough just posting in this thread, let alone this board. Maybe if more hardcore gamers were better adapted socially, video games wouldn't have the stigma that they do. Please, my request to everybody is to stop whining and arguing, because it's all very, very stupid.
// Watching a perfect Pac-Man game would be
// boring as hell. Props to the human that did
// it though.
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
"sdkess7," I enjoy time attacks. I enjoy making them, and I enjoy watching them. I also enjoy watching "unenhanced," for lack of a better term, speed runs like those Metroid movies.
But I don't enjoy the idea that time attacks are cheating. Cheating only has negative connotations:
(noun): Someone who leads you to believe something that is not true
(noun): The act of swindling by some fraudulent scheme
(noun): A deception for profit to yourself
(verb): Deprive somebody of something by deceit
(verb): Defeat someone in an expectation through trickery or deceit
(verb): Engage in deceitful behavior; practice trickery or fraud
If you came here to defend yourself from comments that offended you, fine. But you took time out to tell us that we're viewed as "cheaters" by "serious gamers." And the comparison between yourself and a professional athlete is illogical. Derek Jeter is serious about baseball because he is paid $18 million a year to play it. I know professional video gamers exist, but they're not playing NES. They're competing in international tournaments, earning a living.
Feitclub, I don't know what your problem is. Your attitude towards me is a perfect example of the problem we're discussing. We've both worked on Bionic Commando. Ramzi, currently a Zelda person, is clearly annoyed by TSA and other Zelda experts at TG. See a pattern? There's definitely friction between egos on both sides of this.
My goal wasn't to come here to "tell you" that you're a cheater. I'm sorry that you got that idea, and I guess it's partially my fault for not making that clearer. Name calling has become standard with people like you being called a cheater, and people like me being called ignorant. Neither group is happy about it. I was hoping to help provide an understanding of why the two groups seem to be at odds with each other. Without understanding each other, we'll end up hating each other in the end. For all I know, it may turn out to be situation where we just agree to disagree.
By the way, the sports analogy is not illogical. You're the one who is not making sense. I've never heard of a pro athlete or pro gamer who plays only for the money. The words "love of the game" are heard all too often. Playing sports seriously as a profession has not stopped them from enjoying it. Most would play professionally even without the ridiculous salaries, and I think many would play as a hobby even if there were no professional leagues.
The key truth here is that it's almost impossible to be successful at the highest levels if you don't love what you're doing.
I have no need to make money at playing games so I play what I want to, which is currently the NES. If one day a pro NES league pops up, maybe I'll give it a whirl!
Double post I know, but Ramzi's post warrants a response.
"Please, my request to everybody is to stop whining and arguing, because it's all very, very stupid."
I don't see much arguing or whining in this thread outside of feitclub. It has been for the most part a civilized discussion. I don't think it's stupid at all.
A general idea I get from your comments Ramzi is that people are taking this stuff too seriously. You may be right, but that doesn't change the situation. The fact of the matter is that many people are pretty dedicated to their chosen pursuits, and when someone puts a lot of effort into something, they tend to have strong feelings about it. This goes for time attack authors and clean players alike. Neither likes to see their hard work criticized or trivialized.
"There's no denying that a lot of TG game experts hate us for making videos that show all the secrets."
I disagree strongly. I feel that it has less to do with giving away secrets and more to do with time attack methods and the upstaging of legit accomplishments. I'm guessing that people like TSA won't tell you their secrets mainly because they don't want to help "cheaters".
"We recently refined the Zelda 1 route, that with perfect fighting will come to sub-28 minutes. Using this route, the world records could be shattered, easily, by the good players."
I'm not so sure about the "easily" part. I watched Arc's Metroid run, but I doubt I'll ever get below 20 minutes (his is 16), and I'm no slouch at the game. You underestimate how caution, imperfection, and luck affect the finish time on a highly difficult path. Even if your Zelda path is the best path for a perfect fighter and lucky gambler, it may not work out so well for a clean run.
"sdkess, did you watch the Ronin video of SMW before doing your WR run? Did it inspire you, or show you something you didn't know?"
I saw it before I had gotten my 11:35, but after I had started working on a speed run for the game. I think my best time was 11:57 at that point. For games I'm going for records on, I like to start from scratch with my own ideas, and then I read FAQS and watch almost any video I can find. There's almost always something you don't know that someone else does! I don't like to watch a video first because it can close your mind to better ideas that you might have thought of on your own.
"Will you share how you shaved off 30 seconds? Would you be upset if I told?"
I think you know the answer to this. As a competitive gamer, strategy and knowledge is part of the competition. I'm not going to give away all of my tricks to someone I hardly know (not that they're big secrets), but if someone else knows them and tells them that's fine. If you figure something out, you earn the right to do what you please with that info.
"I think I may be one of the few on these boards who don't think video games are life."
Not finishing your homework and lying in bed thinking about optimal Zelda paths... Soon you'll be one of us ;)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjavík, Ísland
I can understand that players are frustrated about those timeattacks, for various reasons (their legit runs being rendered somewhat "obsolete", even though they're not really).
However, if they want me to care, they need to show off their videos. I couldn't possibly care less about somome's record in a game if I don't get to see the video. Though some games are not interesting to watch at all (A Link to the Past for example).
That said, speedruns are speedruns, timeattacks are theories, and nothing more. They don't demonstrate any playing skills, mostly patience and bugs. And that's that. People who are speedrunning shouldn't be too upset if someone bettered their record using slowdown and save states, it's like being upsed if someone is good at football if he has the ball glued to his chest and was equipped with a lightsaber in each hand which he can slice the opposing team with.
timeattacks are theories, and nothing more. They don't demonstrate any playing skills, mostly patience and bugs
Timeattacks do require some skills to make.
I have handled enough submissions to know that some are better timeattack makers than others.
Yes, you don't need to learn and remember all the monsters and places of the game by heart - you can just undo and redo as many times as you wish - but you do need to learn the game physics in order to do the most fluent movements and to exploit every single detail that could affect time or sensation.
You need to have eye for what's good and what's not. Many beginning timeattack makers ignore this. They think that their first movie doesn't have much to improve, and are extremely surprised when they notice how the second try shaves so much time from their first try.
Anyone can learn those skills - like anyone can learn playing. For different people it requires different amount of effort.
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjavík, Ísland
I know, that's why I specifically said "playing skills", instead of "skills". Making a good timeattack requires a different skill than playing the game. At least that's what I was thinking when I wrote that.
While I also agree that the set of skills in these two tasks are not equal, only intersecting.
Timeattack making requires more brain'n'thinking skills whereas normal playing requires reaction-like skills :)
And I think timeattacks demonstrate more impressive skills than speedruns.
I like especially those timeattacks that demonstrate those skills most :)
Teaching your brain how to play a game extraordinarily well is just waste of time when you can teach a computer that much faster with better results :)
Ok I might be provocating a bit here.
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
Insult me all you want. I'm ignoring this topic from now on. Between working a full-time job and going to school at night, I've got a choice between this thread and enjoying myself. I choose to enjoy myself.
Bottom line: If you enjoy time attacks, then enjoy them. Try making one too. If you think we're "cheating," then don't visit our forum. Complain about it all you like over at Twin Galaxies.
And if you enjoy time attacks but still describe us as "cheaters," then you are, as Bisqwit put it, "ignorant." Cheating, by definition, involves deception. You can't be an "honest cheater," as you so condescendly put it.
Feitclub...out.
