Post by Johannes

Posted: 3/24/2008 7:18 PM

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Johannes

Former player

Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 425

I want to start the project now. But there's some obstacles. First I'm gonna play through the game to learn the controls and stages better. (I haven't played it in a long time). Unfortunately the game lags a lot. In big rooms it slows down to 15 FPS. (there was some lag on console too IIRC) And the graphics update every second time I press FA. Tedious and might cause desynchs (?) So I'll put this on hold for now.

SM64.org

Posted: 3/24/2008 10:35 PM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

julianface wrote:

lol I know that I just want it on console as I don't have a joystick to play for the "24 hours of play before it must get deleted" ;)

The law is broken as soon as you click download. People who host ROMs will say things like that and other bullshit in order to trick people that would not otherwise download. So if you have the ROM you may as well keep it.

zOMG wrote:

And the graphics update every second time I press FA. Tedious and might cause desynchs (?)

This is normal for an N64 game. This in itself shouldn't cause desyncs, but they may well come from other factors.

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 5/3/2008 7:51 AM

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Franklint

Joined: 5/28/2007
Posts: 45

Woo! I feel guilty for pulling out of this. My main reason, really, was that I wouldn't have been able to do this game justice, in terms of spending loads of time looking for glitches and optimisations. I doubt it would even have got accepted with my level of expertise. For this reason, I'm glad to see this being done properly. Although you're probably past this point already, I think the best (and probably most obvious) route for the first level is as follows: Straight out of bedroom, up to attic, down stairs, into garage, through living room, down to basement, into kitchen and possibly back to living room to finish. In terms of coins, I'm just about certain you won't need to stray from your pizza planet token paths to gather the required 50 coins (and the same goes for other levels too). Each level has around 100, and at least half of these mostly lie on the basic paths through the levels. Like I say, I just about know this game inside out, especially with locations of things (apart from coins). While I'll probably force my advice onto you ;), feel free to ask for help if it's needed or wanted. Good luck! Cheers, Franklint

Posted: 7/14/2008 12:29 AM

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Johannes

Former player

Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 425

Rice seems to be the best choice for this, but there's still a lot of lag. Is the game like this even on N64? :/

SM64.org

Posted: 7/14/2008 6:38 PM

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Sticky

Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1360
Location: Minnesota

z0MG wrote:

Rice seems to be the best choice for this, but there's still a lot of lag. Is the game like this even on N64? :/

iirc, yes, it was rather slow. Having not played it on emulator, I don't know if it is as slow as you are experiencing.

adelikat wrote:

I very much agree with this post.

Bobmario511 wrote:

Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.

Posted: 1/21/2011 4:27 AM

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Timic83

Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 28

we should tas the ps1 version i remember that was a lot better

Posted: 1/22/2011 3:02 AM

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Sticky

Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1360
Location: Minnesota

Thank God for that bump. In other news, I do not remember playing this game. Ever. Yet three years ago I claimed I did. Go memory loss!

adelikat wrote:

I very much agree with this post.

Bobmario511 wrote:

Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.

Posted: 1/27/2011 4:29 AM

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ivmaddnessvi

Joined: 8/18/2009
Posts: 85

I tried to do this with a buddy of mine and we failed badly at planing and we gave up. I played this recently on my psp. Quite a fun game.

My Youtube My Bungie

Posted: 3/14/2012 4:22 AM

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RingRush

Experienced player (512)

Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116

Okay, I was considering working on this game. Here are some notes: - Alternating holding left and right every frame is faster than holding forwards and removes speed oscillations, which is pretty nice and TAS-looking. - In this video you can observe a useful/cool glitch. It is very easy to perform on pj64 or mupen-rr. However, I was unable to perform this glitch on my actual N64 OR on the playstation emulator pcsx-rr. In both of these cases, the camera physics behave noticably differently than on my N64 ROM. This leads me to two possible conclusions: (1) There are different versions of Toy Story 2, or (2) The clip is an emulation glitch. I have obtained several roms/isos trying to check (1), and I cannot find any evidence of a version difference for the (U) version. I have tried other language versions, and they were also able to clip on mupen/pj. What would be useful is if people could try to do the clip on actual console - if someone can get it, that confirms this is a version difference. If nobody can get it...I can only assume (2) is true and this is not a true glitch. - Which brings me right to my next major dilemma: what emulator to play this on. Here are some emulators I've tried: 1. PJ64: game runs perfectly, but no TASing capabilities. This is an obvious no, but it is just to contrast with the next emulator. 2. Mupen-rr (whatever the most recent version is): the game runs alright, but it is very, very laggy. As in, so laggy, that somewhere around 1 in every 3 frames is lag. The framerate drops far below console levels all over the place, oftentimes to half speed or slower. Unless there is some special way to fix this, I think this horrible lag alone eliminates this possibility. The N64 version of the game would be faster all other things being equal, due to the ammount of loading time and filler screens before the game / between levels. I thought I heard someone say once that the N64 version requires 10 less pizza planet tokens to beat (N64 requiring, 30/50, PSC requiring 40/50), but I haven't verified the accuracy of this. Either way, I'd probably do 100%. 3. PCSX-rr: In some areas there are some minor graphical glitchs on Buzz, making him appear black, shadowy or blue-tinted. It is undesirable, but not really that distracting from the run. I can post a sample video if need be. The main reason why I'm hesitant to use PCSX-rr is that I can't find a good TAS input for the analogue stick like the one for mupen or the one built into PSXjin. As I did all my work on this emulator for Croc (where analogue is slower than digital due to a semi-bug in the speed system), I'm pretty comfortable with it. 4. PSXjin: This may have the same graphical glitchs as PCSX-rr. I don't know though, since I can't get the game to run past the first two screens after game startup (before the main menu). I also have the same problem with A Bug's Life, which is another game I am considering TASing. However, Croc and Croc 2 I can run perfectly fine (or at least as "perfect" as pcsx-rr), so I know I at least have a clue what I'm doing. I've tried fiddling around with psxjin's settings to try to match my pcsx-rr, but to no avail. Just to be clear: the same file I can get to run in PCSX-rr, I cannot get to run (past the first few screens) in PSXjin. If anyone has any ideas, that'd be useful. Of the 4 choices above I'd like to do the N64 version since it has less waiting times between levels, but unless the crippling lag problem can be solved that is just impossible at the present moment. Furthermore, if the door glitch ends up being an emulation error, I am skeptical of the accuracy of gameplay emulation for the n64 version and think it would be best not to use it. I don't think the small graphical glitchs in the PSX version are a big deal, and would probably run that, but I need either a good input plugin for PCSX-rr or a way to get the game to run on PSXjin. Also I'm not commiting to anything right now, except that if I can't resolve these issues I commit to not TASing this game ;) Edit: Received one result of someone else testing the glitch on console (n64): did not work.

Posted: 3/14/2012 1:06 PM

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LancexExWx

Joined: 2/1/2011
Posts: 88

This guy has a Non-tas of the game and maybe you can pick up some trick from it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4wfJAp9hJ0

Posted: 3/19/2012 3:09 PM

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julianface

Joined: 3/24/2008
Posts: 35
Location: Toronto

I really want to see this

Gets made fun of for still playing his NES and N64

Posted: 5/28/2012 3:36 PM

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LancexExWx

Joined: 2/1/2011
Posts: 88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D06AGgRQHsg

Posted: 8/26/2012 3:07 AM

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gamerfreak5665

Player (186)

Joined: 8/3/2012
Posts: 116
Location: U.S.

I REALLY want to TAS this game. If I can find a way to fix those problems with mupen or i could do it on PSX, either way i definitely want to do it.

Posted: 10/18/2012 5:01 PM

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gamerfreak5665

Player (186)

Joined: 8/3/2012
Posts: 116
Location: U.S.

RingRush wrote:

Okay, I was considering working on this game. Here are some notes: - Alternating holding left and right every frame is faster than holding forwards and removes speed oscillations, which is pretty nice and TAS-looking. - In this video you can observe a useful/cool glitch. It is very easy to perform on pj64 or mupen-rr. However, I was unable to perform this glitch on my actual N64 OR on the playstation emulator pcsx-rr. In both of these cases, the camera physics behave noticably differently than on my N64 ROM. This leads me to two possible conclusions: (1) There are different versions of Toy Story 2, or (2) The clip is an emulation glitch. I have obtained several roms/isos trying to check (1), and I cannot find any evidence of a version difference for the (U) version. I have tried other language versions, and they were also able to clip on mupen/pj. What would be useful is if people could try to do the clip on actual console - if someone can get it, that confirms this is a version difference. If nobody can get it...I can only assume (2) is true and this is not a true glitch. - Which brings me right to my next major dilemma: what emulator to play this on. Here are some emulators I've tried: 1. PJ64: game runs perfectly, but no TASing capabilities. This is an obvious no, but it is just to contrast with the next emulator. 2. Mupen-rr (whatever the most recent version is): the game runs alright, but it is very, very laggy. As in, so laggy, that somewhere around 1 in every 3 frames is lag. The framerate drops far below console levels all over the place, oftentimes to half speed or slower. Unless there is some special way to fix this, I think this horrible lag alone eliminates this possibility. The N64 version of the game would be faster all other things being equal, due to the ammount of loading time and filler screens before the game / between levels. I thought I heard someone say once that the N64 version requires 10 less pizza planet tokens to beat (N64 requiring, 30/50, PSC requiring 40/50), but I haven't verified the accuracy of this. Either way, I'd probably do 100%. 3. PCSX-rr: In some areas there are some minor graphical glitchs on Buzz, making him appear black, shadowy or blue-tinted. It is undesirable, but not really that distracting from the run. I can post a sample video if need be. The main reason why I'm hesitant to use PCSX-rr is that I can't find a good TAS input for the analogue stick like the one for mupen or the one built into PSXjin. As I did all my work on this emulator for Croc (where analogue is slower than digital due to a semi-bug in the speed system), I'm pretty comfortable with it. 4. PSXjin: This may have the same graphical glitchs as PCSX-rr. I don't know though, since I can't get the game to run past the first two screens after game startup (before the main menu). I also have the same problem with A Bug's Life, which is another game I am considering TASing. However, Croc and Croc 2 I can run perfectly fine (or at least as "perfect" as pcsx-rr), so I know I at least have a clue what I'm doing. I've tried fiddling around with psxjin's settings to try to match my pcsx-rr, but to no avail. Just to be clear: the same file I can get to run in PCSX-rr, I cannot get to run (past the first few screens) in PSXjin. If anyone has any ideas, that'd be useful. Of the 4 choices above I'd like to do the N64 version since it has less waiting times between levels, but unless the crippling lag problem can be solved that is just impossible at the present moment. Furthermore, if the door glitch ends up being an emulation error, I am skeptical of the accuracy of gameplay emulation for the n64 version and think it would be best not to use it. I don't think the small graphical glitchs in the PSX version are a big deal, and would probably run that, but I need either a good input plugin for PCSX-rr or a way to get the game to run on PSXjin. Also I'm not commiting to anything right now, except that if I can't resolve these issues I commit to not TASing this game ;) Edit: Received one result of someone else testing the glitch on console (n64): did not work.

To comment on the analog input plugin problem, I tested out N-Rage's controller input for PSX, and it has an analog option that works perfectly, and doesnt desync as far as i know. Also, does the alternating left and right to run faster thing only apply to N64? Because I did a speed test one running straight and one alternating left and right per frame and they are the same speed for PSX.

Posted: 10/19/2012 9:35 AM

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RingRush

Experienced player (512)

Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116

I was testing on the playstation version. Are you using ramwatch or just doing it by observation? Normally when you run your speed oscillates, but when you alternate left/right (sometimes have to run a few frames first) your speed will stay at the maximum value of the oscillations. The difference is very minor and doesn't even come out to a frame over short distances, but it is there.

Posted: 10/21/2012 5:05 PM

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gamerfreak5665

Player (186)

Joined: 8/3/2012
Posts: 116
Location: U.S.

Ok, so I just wanted to try TASing the first level, and this is my result: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd9sWr5lvMY This is on PSX, but I figured I would post it here just instead of making a new fourm. There are a couple spots like the basement where it would have been faster if I got the sheep after getting the planet token, but this is just a run through. Any suggestions, comments?

Posted: 10/21/2012 11:04 PM

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RingRush

Experienced player (512)

Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116

Check a bit earlier in the topic and someone posted a demo I made of possible routes for real time/TASes. Note that this demo was done on keyboard (no analogue stick), was not trying to be optimized, and still didn't include the most optimal route. Yet it beats your first level by about a second. First and most importantly, you did not unlock the hazard shield. Most agree this is necessary for 100%, and it costs such little time to get you should do it no matter what to avoid controversy (all other upgrades are necessary anyways so this is the only issue). Next, compare your routes with the routes in my demonstration. Some parts you may have faster, but I know a lot of the routes shown there are better. It is up to you as the TASer to figure out exactly which is best. Some other routes to consider that aren't demonstrated in that video: 1. There is a trick I didn't know about to jump from the spoon on the right side of the kitchen up to the sheep. This costs some coins but it makes the room much faster...if you can get the coins elsewhere this should be included. 2. There are a lot of possibilities for the basement (more than what is shown in either of our videos), play around with them a bit. Make sure you talk to Mr. Potato Head. 3. There is a trick to jump from the banister up above to the shelf in the living room and then to the platform with the sheep. It is very hard real time but this isn't an issue for a TAS. I don't know if this is a faster route or not, but it seems like it would be. 4. Along those lines, consider re-ordering the rooms. You definitely have to do the living room before the garage to get the Hazard Shield, and you'll have to backtrack to the living room after the kitchen (possibly in between the basement and kitchen but doubtful) to get the 50 coin token. 5. You will have to do luck manipulation to get favorable enemy locations. For example, you can manipulate the enemy I get the third coin from in my video to be right at the top of the stairs when you are heading down them (or at least in a favorable position to get the coin early if you end up doing the banister jump). This can change the coin route a bit. 6. Speaking of which, that coin route has some very sketchy coins. Mine isn't perfect either, but you really have to put some serious timing to get an optimal coin route. Enemies are great for coins if you can manipulate them to be on your path, and in general going far out of the way for coins is a bad idea (see: how much time you lost on the garage). Some general optimization tips: 1. I didn't know it in the first level of that video, but you can press one button to cancel text boxes instead of cycling through them (such as when talking to Potato Head or RC). I forgot which it is off the top of my head...square maybe? 2. If possible, be where pizza planet tokens spawn when they spawn. I noticed at least for the robot boss you didn't do this, and that costs time. You might want to test if ground pounding in that location a la SM64 is faster too. 3. Grabbing ledges takes a ton of time, so always try to avoid it if you can without losing much time (eg consider pushing the boxes a bit more at the top of the basement). Speaking of which, it might be better to keep the first box half-way on the upper ledge or jump on it when its falling so you can push the back boxes a bit less. 4. It might be faster to choose continue on the last token and then exit level rather than exit level from that final menu. I know for sure that is the case in levels 3,6,9,12, and 15, but it is worth testing in every level (since you skip the "too infinity and beyond" animation). This level is obviously going to need a redo (I personally would vote reject if it wasn't...being behind a keyboard run is inexcusable for a final product). However, you might want to keep working a bit before you start on the actual TAS. You don't want to constantly be discovering things mid-way through the game that you could have used earlier on (though if you discover absolutely nothing over the course of the run you maybe should be searching harder). Make sure you spend some time researching tiny optimizations, such as the optimal way to start moving, the optimal way to shoot a different direction and then keep going in the same direction, the optimal way to double jump for both height and distance (this might take some creativity because of oscillating speed during jumps that can't be solved via left/right), and other things. I hope you continue this project since I think this game would look absolutely amazing TASed...there are just so many cool tricks throughout the levels. Good luck.

Posted: 11/8/2012 5:56 PM

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gamerfreak5665

Player (186)

Joined: 8/3/2012
Posts: 116
Location: U.S.

Ok, thanks for the suggestions RingRush. I definitely will try and plan out better routes and optimize more.

Posted: 11/10/2012 10:30 AM

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NilsTFK

Joined: 11/10/2012
Posts: 7
Location: France

Despite of 2 coins you can jump from the stairs to the platform which has the sheep on it at about 3:33 on the video. I didn't try it on the playstation version but I played the game on my PC some days ago and I could do this after 3 tries without using any tools, so I guess you can easily do it.

Posted: 2/23/2014 2:18 PM

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LancexExWx

Joined: 2/1/2011
Posts: 88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOGpt-A0pFI I don't know if any of these tricks might be helpful, but I thought I might as well post it anyways.

Posted: 11/12/2014 5:22 PM

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Champloo

Joined: 12/4/2013
Posts: 2

Has anyone managed to tweak any settings to attain console speed emulation? Emulation on bizhawk with any plugin lags very much for me when doing anything but staring into a corner. I'm really interested in developing a movie for the game.

Posted: 11/13/2014 1:31 AM

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LancexExWx

Joined: 2/1/2011
Posts: 88

The problems with the Bizhawk is the reason we don't have one in progress right now...

Posted: 1/31/2016 5:52 PM

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peterafro

Joined: 8/13/2015
Posts: 10

Is it just the fact I use keyboard, or does the crosshair not move at all on Bizhawk? I plan on TASing this

TAS plans (if I feel like TASing): Ninja Crusaders 1-player. Toy Story 2 any% (maybe if can I fix crosshair not moving) Paper Mario 3D Land (if I fix the inputs not working problem) Quint's Revenge (see PM3DL) Mega Man 10 Proto man easy