Posted: 11/5/2004 4:17 AM
Post subject: How hard can luck manipulation get
Quote
Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1417)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
I'm having a heck of a time getting some item drops in my G.I. Joe run, my first. It seems the best time to get timesaving items is when I'm not actively looking for them! (yes, I know about doing different stuff each time, but it doesn't work out very well)
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 11/5/2004 4:34 AM
(Edited: 11/5/2004 4:37 AM)
Quote
4matsy
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 498
Depends on how the random number generator is programmed, so it's different for each individual game, unfortunately. For example, if all possible values are in a table, and the random selector simply advances down the table one by one at certain time intervals, all you can do is wait for a different item. >_< I know Mega Man 2 works this way, cause I ran into period-8 item drop patterns while trying to do the "stand next to Scworm dispenser with Leaf Shield on for unlimited 1-ups" trick. Dunno if this is the case for G. I. Joe, but this is an example just to make the idea (hopefully) clear...it may depend on things other than time, like which direction you're moving, or what actions (like jumping) you've performed recently...sometimes it's "fixed", only changing at major events, which is a royal pain...(WalkerBoh just said this about trying to change the cave in which the Technodrome appears in level 5 of his Ninja Turtles run...the only way to change it was killing the level 4 boss at a different time.)
Posted: 11/5/2004 4:35 AM
Quote
Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Arcade TAS of 2023 Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021
Depends on how the game is programmed. Some games depend on user input (current time, position on screen, or buttons pressed), others just give items every n:th enemy and are pretty unmanipulatable. Like Rygar or Link, for example. Yours might be one of those.
Posted: 11/5/2004 5:04 AM
Quote
Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1417)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Any suggestions then on how I can determine how the randomization works, or should I move on to other games that don't rely on random factors as much until I am more experienced with that kind stuff? It looks like the "recent action" thing is in G.I. Joe, but I find it really difficult to control. So far in my run I've decided not to worry too much about item drops, but if a benificial one comes my way I'll take it.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 11/5/2004 11:38 AM
Quote
Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Experiment, poke, peek, poll, try, test, analyze, think, determine, verify.
Posted: 11/5/2004 7:20 PM
Quote
Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Luck manipulation can be as simple as adding one extra keystroke for added effect or as difficult as having maximum input on every frame and getting nowhere near the desired effect. Not everything is as easy to manipulate as others. If you know you can randomize an item or enemy, it shouldn't take more than 200 attempts (given that you have more than 2 frames before the event) to get what you want. Also keep in mind that it is practically impossible to randomize some things in your favor.
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
Posted: 11/10/2004 5:25 PM
Quote
Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Yeah, like, I started to make a movie of Bomberking, but then I realized how much the player depends on power-ups for a good run and how random they are. Some items are always in the same places, but most of them seem to be set at the time the barriers containing the items appear onscreen. Maybe there is a cycle or an influence other than timing, I don't know.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 11/24/2004 2:52 PM
Quote
Dada
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
There's no randomness in these old games, only pseudo-randomness. A good example is the amount of frames the character stands still before a battle deciding if that next battle will be a pre-emptive strike or not in FF6. It can't generate random numbers so it just grabs some data from somewhere. This can be anything from player-generated numbers, or internal heat, memory load, I don't know exactly which data the old systems use, but it's very possible to manipulate these things.
Posted: 11/24/2004 3:09 PM
Quote
Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Arcade TAS of 2023 Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021
>There's no randomness in these old games, only pseudo-randomness. There is in new games? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. There is no good method for generating random numbers in computers now either that I now of. One interesting try I saw was a computer with a digital camera watching a lava lamp. It then took some mathematical formula for certain pixels to generate the number. Not feasible in your average computer game though.
Posted: 11/25/2004 5:12 PM
Quote
OmnipotentEntity
He/Him
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2631
But new game systems have internal clocks that they can use.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Posted: 11/29/2004 5:07 AM
Quote
NecroVMX
Player (71)
Joined: 8/13/2004
Posts: 205
the only game i've messed around with manipulation in is dragon warrior, it was easy, just time consuming, i assume action games would be a lot harder cuz there's more variables with character placement
Posted: 11/29/2004 5:27 AM
Quote
Boco
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
Radioactive decay: http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ Lava lamp: http://www.lavarnd.org/ Radio static: http://random.org/
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Posted: 11/29/2004 1:01 PM
Quote
blip
Joined: 4/11/2004
Posts: 155
Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
Here's a terrific FAQ exploring the functioning of the random number generator in the GBA game Fire Emblem. I thought it was really interesting: http://faqs.ign.com/articles/520/520430p1.html