I know there was one topic about the original Megaman Battle Network (hereafter MMBN), but it hasn't been updated in months, so I figure - why not a thread for the whole series of MMBN games? (Edit: Actually, since Zurreco mentioned that the games are too distinct to bundle together, I'd prefer to keep this thread to the first two games, although discussion of the other four is probably still acceptable)
Personally, since I'm not sure I have the patience for doing the TASing myself, I'm going to discuss strategy more than anything else, and only for the first, second, and fifth games of the series (the only ones where I've put extensive time playing - the first through ROM and the second and fifth through having the actual cartridge). I may be persuaded into attempting to TAS the second game, though, if I get plenty of support.
Before I start..... is it just my settings, or does VBA have problems running this series of games at the correct number of frames?
Now, on to the real fun part of this topic.
Here's one thing I gathered from the old thread regarding the original MMBN:
nitsuja wrote:
Battle chips aren't that hard to control... You can easily avoid all random encounters, but if you ever get into one you'll notice the chips you start with are completely randomized depending on when the encounter happened. This is also when the next 5 chips you get (if you use ADD) are randomized, so to manipulate that you'd need to change something before the battle, or if it's after the first turn in the battle you'd need to change what you did on the previous turn of the battle to manipulate it. (If you mean the drops from enemies, then I don't know, those always seem determined further ahead of time.)
Wonder how similar it is for the later games in the series?
I'm going to quickly move on to MMBN2, and state some thoughts on it.
Is it possible to get Cannon C from the Canodumb viruses in Den Area? If so, I'd say get into a random battle with one of those to get that chip so Z-Canon1 can be used against Airman. With just one Atk+10 added, that Program Advance (hereafter PA) can take out Airman in two shots, for a reason I'll explain in a later strategy.
Some other things. As soon as you finish with the battle tutorial, the blackboard in the school and the doghouse in front of Lan's house can be jacked into. Why is this important? The former has a Sword L and the latter has Fishy viruses, which drop DashAtk chips. The Sword L is important because if you can get a LongSwrd L chip from either Yai's phone or Yai's PC, you suddenly have the LifeSrd1 PA, which I believe can take Quickman out in one shot (making the battle SO much faster it's not funny). As for DaskAtk..... if Cannon C can't be gotten, I believe DashAtk is going to be the best chip to fight Airman with.
I don't have any specifics for other scenarios, but let me quickly discuss a little trick I discovered and three strategies that involve that trick. I discovered that attack-boosting chips add to the damage of EACH hit of an attack, not to the overall damage of the attack.
Strategy 1: This one's probably well-known by now, but boosting the Gater PA by at least 20 points of damage can pretty much OHKO any main-game boss short of Gospel.
Strategy 2: I call this strategy "The Snake Pit". You need either a Geddon1 or Geddon2 chip (Geddon1 is slower as you need to break the panels yourself, but I'm not sure Geddon2 can be gotten in any Chip Traders even with TAS luck manipulation). Use that, then use a Snakeman chip boosted as high as possible. If you get lucky with the Chip Trader I believe the maximum boost this can get is +160 (four Wood +40s). Maybe if you also used an AreaGrab chip (I'm assuming the extra snakes can only come out of holes on your side), it'd have the potential to OHKO Gospel (11 snakes, plus the bite at the end. With the lowest Snakeman chip, that's (30+160)* 12, which equals 2280). (If that doesn't make jaws hit the floor, I don't know what will.) Human players without that kind of luck (and not resorting to Gospel Duping, which I won't discuss here as any TAS would end before that trick could be used) could still achieve +130 (two Wood +40s, one Atk +30, and oneAtk +20). They probably couldn't OHKO Gospel, but it'd be close (assuming the same setup, it's (30+130) * 12, which equals 1920).
Strategy 3: Get a Twister chip and boost it as high as possible. Some Navis would require AreaGrab to be reached with this, but still, assuming the same maximum boost as the Snake Pit strategy discussed above (+160 for purist, +130 for human player), the damage gets to be insane ( (20+160) * 8 for purists, which works out to be 1440, or (20+130) * 8 for human players, which works out to be 1200). I suggest this because it's quicker to set up than the Snake Pit strategy, even factoring in the potential need for an AreaGrab, despite its lower damage.
I may sound obvious here, but a really dedicated TASer could probably get any of these results with enough retries.
Since I'm out of ideas for the moment, I open this up to others' opinions.
Joined: 8/1/2004
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FrostyTheDragon wrote:
why not a thread for the whole series of MMBN games?
Because they're all separate games, and they are all different enough that they shouldn't be bundled together.
I have a run through the first Battle Network game up to Numberman. After royally obliterating Fireman, the Numberman fight seems really slow and tame. I'm not really happy with the chipsets I keep getting from him, and so I've been stuck there for a while. Currently, Numberman dies at frame ~35200 (9:47).
Are you AquaTiger, by chance?
Yeah, that's the alias I use on the SDA forums.
I could maybe understand keeping a topic on the fifth game separate from the first and second, since that's a DRASTIC change.... maybe just have this thread represent the first two games? Or should this be just the second (which my advice seemed to be more focused on)?
Oh well.
Out of curiosity, what kind of chipset are you looking for against Numberman? Something where you don't have to concern yourself with those orb attacks? Or is there some PA you're looking to use?
Joined: 8/1/2004
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Location: Seattle, WA
Anything, really. I'd love a super cannon set up, since I have enough chips to make it. A large amount of shockwaves would also make me happy, since they give out 60 damage per hit and can take out those retarded bomb balls.
For Fireman, I do (1st round) ADD + 27buster [27], then (2nd round) WideSwd + 3x Sword [273]. Fight ends in 15:73
For Numberman, swords won't help. That being said, I do (1st round) 3x Minibomb + 8buster [158], (2nd round) 2x Cannon + 5buster [85], (3rd round) 2xShotgun + 13buster [73], (4th round) 2xShockWave + 10buster [130], (5th round) Spreader + 24buster [54]. Fight ends in 45:69.
If you're trying an MMBN 2 run, I'm quite experienced with the game, I'd be happy to help.
You can manipulate GMD right? You could get some good chips for PAs off of that, without having to fight too many viruses.
Do you think a hard mode run though would be more entertaining?
The differences in hard (as far as I know are)
Enemies have 50% more health (except one)
You take 50% more damage (not including swap tiles)
The endurance battles are different.
Cannot network
The biggest part would be more HP in enemies which would prolong the battle, but would require more techniques since PAs are a one shot deal.
A problem is however that it would require a SRAM which is impossible to achieve normally since there is no network support for TAS on GBA.
The save game files on gamefaqs are created by either using a Gameshark or VBA.
In either case, the user could very easily fake the data.
From my understanding it is perferable that if you use an SRAM you have a movie file that takes you from no SRAM to the SRAM state you use.
EXE 6 would be the best candidate for a TAS alongside 1. The game is mostly dialogue for some baffling reason. And when you DO actually connect to the internet, you're dealing with short areas that are highly easy to manipulate the enemies on.
The baffling amount of cutscenes in 6 would lend to a faster TAS. The only trouble, as with all EXE TAS ideas, is the lack of power. You'd need to manipulate battles and the chips FOR the battle so you could get the battle chips you'd want. I cannot imagine that being anything but a colossal pain in the ass.
I guess that means you'll have to play the Jpn version.
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put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Yeah, it's only in the Japanese version (i own both, it's fun to battle with a Japanese version and a US version and use the Prism bug, because both sides thinks they've won and will generate rewards appropriately)
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
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Has there been any progress at all on any of the games recently? I made an optimised test run in EXE2 up to AirMan in 6:39, Airman dead in 17 sec. As you all know, manipulating the chips is very hard. Is there any solid way to bring out any chips you want?
Has anyone even started any kind of planning for any of the games?
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[03:45:05] <Naohiro19> Soulrivers: ...
[03:45:19] <Soulrivers> ?
[03:46:35] <Naohiro19> <Soulrivers> No! <Naohiro19> So? <Soulrivers> Yes!
[03:46:48] <Naohiro19> joke
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I moved a few hundred frames past Numberman in MMBN1, but I'm still plagued with doubts as to whether or not I should skip the Cannon C I pick up right before the battle. I could trade it in to get good swords once the lotto opens up, but I don't know if ~3 seconds of sidetracking is worth one extra chip, or if I'm even going to be able to rely on luck so much.
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Zurreco wrote:
I moved a few hundred frames past Numberman in MMBN1, but I'm still plagued with doubts as to whether or not I should skip the Cannon C I pick up right before the battle. I could trade it in to get good swords once the lotto opens up, but I don't know if ~3 seconds of sidetracking is worth one extra chip, or if I'm even going to be able to rely on luck so much.
IMO, getting it isn't worth it. You'll still have a bunch of other chips to choose from, and let's face it, manipulating the lottery to get an exact chip isn't very likely. Not that I am an expert on the game though...
Also, how the heck are we supposed to get any good chips if we don't fight any random battles? With the crappy chips avaliable, you won't get any S ranks on bosses either. And you don't really find any good chips on the Net that is right in your path.
My published movies
[03:45:05] <Naohiro19> Soulrivers: ...
[03:45:19] <Soulrivers> ?
[03:46:35] <Naohiro19> <Soulrivers> No! <Naohiro19> So? <Soulrivers> Yes!
[03:46:48] <Naohiro19> joke
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I get a few Shockwaves at first to replace healing chips, and then I will only worry about earning high attack situational chips. That is to say, long range explosives, straight line attacks with piercing, or nice sword setups. I'm pretty sure that the lotto can be used to get any decent chip; maybe not a nice LongSwd with heavy damage, but anything is better than tiny Cannon chips.
Joined: 12/27/2006
Posts: 532
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
So you think it's worth taking a few random battles to get good chips? Won't that be hell, deciding what chips to get from what battles?
Also, how do you go about manipulating chips and random battles? In my test, I didn't fight one random battle, but that was achieved through letting go of the running button a few frames, taking a slower route and such. For manipulating chips on the boss, I just delayed the fight a few frames, but I didn't get any kind of perfect setup. There is nothing to compare to, so it's kind of hard to know when you've got an acceptable chunk of chips.
My published movies
[03:45:05] <Naohiro19> Soulrivers: ...
[03:45:19] <Soulrivers> ?
[03:46:35] <Naohiro19> <Soulrivers> No! <Naohiro19> So? <Soulrivers> Yes!
[03:46:48] <Naohiro19> joke
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Meh. Just as soon as I had written over my healing chips and other underpowered things, I focused on money for Buster upgrades. After that, there isn't a good reason to get in to any fights until you can get very damaging chip sets.
Joined: 8/1/2004
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Location: Seattle, WA
That's definitely an interesting glitch. If it's reproducible, every fight that can be moved to the front rows can be chopped to pieces fairly quickly.
Also, how the heck are we supposed to get any good chips if we don't fight any random battles? With the crappy chips avaliable, you won't get any S ranks on bosses either. And you don't really find any good chips on the Net that is right in your path.
To add to your point, there's a point in the game where someone (Ms. Yuri) checks to see if you have enough chips in your data library before giving you a key item. This is where your bare minimialist run screeches to a halt. I've also read that someone checks to see if your MegaMan is at a high enough level at that point as well, but that's just a matter of collecting enough HPMemories, PowerUps, and Armors in some combination, so you would need to plan how much to spend on them and which ones to pick up along the route. But before I can figure that out, I have to confirm the minimum number of kinds of chips. Whatever it is, it means that you'll need to plan some random battles into each dungeon in order to get some of the unique chips from it.
EDIT: I've found the threshold! It's 60 kinds of chips, as in 60 data library entries. It doesn't matter how many chips you have in your possession; you just need to have owned 60 different kinds of chips in the past. Remember you can check the save screen to see how full the library is. So at least in the American ROM, 59 isn't quite enough, but 60 gets you the memo. And that's only 45 you need to find, because 10 kinds you start out with, and 5 kinds you're forced to collect by the story.
I had to really scrape every last dungeon for its unique viruses to get that many chips, though. I'm sure you can fill in some of the last few with the various shops or even a trade or two, although shopping may cut into the level-up budget. I'll find out about that soon.
EDIT: It turns out you need to be at level 30 in order to obtain Pa's Memo. Remember that you start out at level 1, and you get an HPMemory and a PowerUp automatically from an e-mail (but don't forget to equip your PowerUps when you need to), so that's just 25 more levels' worth of items you need to collect. Use this guide to help you decide which ones to grab: http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/457634/14657
If you want to go cheap, it looks as though you should only buy HPMemories and PowerUps from the merchants in Areas 1 (ACDC) and 3 (Govt) to make up for whichever ones are too far off the main route to collect. You could also buy HPMemory at Area 5, where the shop isn't a detour, but it's a little more expensive, and who knows if you'll need that last few thousand Zenny to finish off your chip library? Armors are very expensive, and I think you can go without any, unless you can think of any situation where you would need to take some hits to speed up a battle.
If beating WoodMan isn't in the plan, remember that you can backtrack from the first WWW area into the area that Sal's link opens without needing the link (from Area 5 to 9 to 3), and you can bookmark the access to Lan's Dad's computer while there so you have a shortcut right back to the WWW server after grabbing the other memos. Just don't forget to grab the link while leaving the message on the office computer, if that's your plan. (A funny side effect of this is that Lan's dad is suddenly present in the office after Lan jacks out. Apparently he sneaked up on Lan while MegaMan was busy fighting BombMan. Nevertheless, since you need to talk to Dr. Hikari anyway after getting BombMan's reward, this shortcut puts you exactly where you need to be.)
EDIT: Okay, KirkQQ in IRC raised a good point that you could just throw all your unwanted chips into the chip trader machine and manipulate luck to get chips that aren't already in your library every time. That shouldn't be too hard when you have less than a third of the library completed. If you have spare cash, you could use it to buy lots of worthless cheap chips to use for that.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
I moved a few hundred frames past Numberman in MMBN1, but I'm still plagued with doubts as to whether or not I should skip the Cannon C I pick up right before the battle.
At first I thought you wanted to make a Zeta-Cannon1, but NumberMan flinches from such weak hits, it would probably waste the whole thing, right? But if an extra Cannon saved you from shooting NumberMan 40 more times, it was probably worth it.
I found you can make a Beta-Sword in time for NumberMan too, but I think you have to go out of your way for the LongSword. But...
Zurreco wrote:
For Numberman, swords won't help.
Unless you can find another AreaSteal this early in the game! ...Can you? (EDIT: KirkQQ says there's a Steal in the oven! Unfortunately it's code A, meaning you couldn't use both Steals and the swords in one turn. But then you can set up that Beta-Sword Program Advance! If you can get those 5 exact chips to come up in the first two rounds, that is...)
At least once you beat GutsMan, you can start powering through the bosses with GutsShoot like Boco said.
Zurreco wrote:
That being said, I do (1st round) 3x Minibomb + 8buster [158], (2nd round) 2x Cannon + 5buster [85], (3rd round) 2xShotgun + 13buster [73], (4th round) 2xShockWave + 10buster [130], (5th round) Spreader + 24buster [54]. Fight ends in 45:69.
This looks like a good fight to me. I wouldn't stress out so much about NumberMan. In fact, this seems like a game where you really want to do a sloppy proof-of-concept run first to make sure that none of your main strategies hits a snag.
Which buster power-ups did you use before this fight, anyway? Do some of those numbers include charged shots? I think a couple of Charge power-ups will quickly outweigh the benefits of any Rapid fire against an enemy in the back, but raising the Attack early on is very helpful too. We'll want to study when each buster stat reaches "diminishing returns" compared to one another to come up with the final PowerUp plan.
Anyway, you should post your WIP where we can all see it, Zurreco! I'm sure we can learn some new things that way.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
