Hey,
I'm a new addition to the whole TAS scene, and after seeing a bunch of speed runs broken down into parts on Youtube (Moreso the LoZ series than anything else), I became fascinated by the idea of being able to create runs. I'm very determined to create my first run ASAP, however I've come across some issues and I was wondering if anyone on the forums could assist me with some answers:
1) I was reading the Emulator Tool Usage page, and I came across the bit on, "Slowing Speed". On the website it says it's highly recommended, but when I decreased my Frame Rate to 5% speed (Or even 30% speed), my game - as expected - began to run ridiculously slow. I was wondering if you're actually supposed to play the game in that speed, or am I forgetting to do something else?
2) I was reading some threads, and I've been hearing lots of talk about programmers creating bots to assist them with their TAS runs, and how people don't "actually play the game" anymore. Could anyone explain what programming a bot would benefit in terms of playing the game, why they're created (if they indeed are), and a brief overview of how one could create a bot (again, if they indeed exist).
I guess more questions will spawn from the answers I hope to receive from this thread, so until then; thanks in advance to anyone who answers my questions.
1. Of course you aren't supposed to play the game like that. Moreso, it's both easier and more effective if you do it in frame advance, rather than at very low speed. It becomes more about constructing the gameplay than actual playing; it can be hard to adjust to (and you will always want to speed it up), but after some practice, it's not that bad.
2. Bots can help mainly with luck manipulation or other things that require lots of bruteforce-like testing without clear goal or set of actions in mind. Only a handful of players use them, actually, so don't worry about that.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Hey,
Thanks a lot for the quick reply.
So are games fully "constructed" from start to finish in Frame Advance in order to avoid utilising needless frames to achieve the best time possible?
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
That depends entirely on the game. Most games have some parts that don't need frame advance (like with basic stuff like walking forward), but other games need frame-per-frame optimization all the way because it's faster to do it a specific way (like in metroid, i think).
All right,
Well my first speed run is going to be Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars for the SNES console. Where would the pros and cons lie in a game of that type of 3D, RPG atmosphere (Using Frame Advance)?
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
Well you're in luck! There's already 13 pages of that to read up about :p
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1010
(ok, so I think it's not the same version, it's the same type of game and should give you a hint of what you're starting at :))
Well my first speed run is going to be Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars for the SNES console. Where would the pros and cons lie in a game of that type of 3D, RPG atmosphere (Using Frame Advance)?
I'm not really familiar with SMRPG, but generally, the things you want to look out for in an RPG game are:
1) route (determine the points you absolutely need to visit and make a point-to-point route between them ignoring anything else);
2) item set (collect only things that save more time than what's spent collecting them);
3) luck manipulation (if something useful has a non-zero chance of happening, it should always happen).
If you want to make a casual TAS, it might be a good idea to not watch the published run, and instead try to make things on your own. Then, when you're finished, you can watch it and see where and how you make mistakes and such.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
In terms of walking around, jumping, etc. Getting from point-to-point, there's no need/advantage to Frame Advancing to the destination over simply moving there freely with no gameplay interruptions (Slow down, Frame Advance, etc)?
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
Probably not, but you'd have to ask the experts for that game on that. Or test for yourself.
For example, at some point it was discovered in Zelda that holding up and down at the same time (impossible on a real console) actually makes you walk a few frames faster. So there's really no telling what works in some games and what in others. It's all part of the challenge :)
There's always an advantage to frame advance--which is that you can change course with perfect timing so that no time wasted on unnecessary steps and such.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
In terms of walking around, jumping, etc. Getting from point-to-point, there's no need/advantage to Frame Advancing to the destination over simply moving there freely with no gameplay interruptions (Slow down, Frame Advance, etc)?
Well, think of it this way. If all you're doing is holding a button down, it's all good. However, you need to be in complete control at the point when you need to release it or press another. The only way to ensure it happened on the first possible frame is getting to this point with frame advance. The most basic mistake is not doing things you're supposed to (jumping, attacking, etc.) as early as possible.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
qFox, it's actually awesome you brought that up,
I was watching the Zelda run earlier, and as a result of the Up/Down trick I noticed Link is all out of wack (Looking in all directions) and when I tried to replicate the speed walk, I couldn't get it to work.
I went into my SNES9x input settings and ticked "Allow Up+Down", but still no dice. Off topic but that would be something else I'd love to get resolved if you know the trick to it.
Btw, my recommendation for making a TAS for the first time:
Once you have completed the TAS of a certain game for the first time, just forget it and start over from the beginning.
That might not sound very tempting when you have spent innumerable hours on your first TAS and have finally got it done, and are proud of it. However, once you start over you will see the reason for this recommendation. You will have learned so much about TASing in general and TASing that game in particular that you will see how you will magically improve your TAS probably from the very first level. You will probably notice saving even several seconds in the first level (almost regardless of the game) in your second attempt compared to the first one, simply because you know the game better now (besides being more experienced about TASing in general).
I warmly recommend doing that. If it so happens that you are a natural talent and you did it almost perfectly the very first time (no offense but I doubt it :) ), you can stop the second attempt after a few levels if you notice that you are not improving the first attempt any.
Oh, and not only with your very first TAS. This same phenomenon will probably happen with many subsequent TASes as well.
I would not suggest Mario RPG as a first TAS, it's pretty difficult to optimised 3D movement, and RPG requiere a lot of time to get it done. I think the 2hours 35minutes might be a couple of month of work to get the TAS done.
But if you have the guts, you can attack it and see how you do.
Anyway Good luck ;)
If you want to make a casual TAS, it might be a good idea to not watch the published run, and instead try to make things on your own. Then, when you're finished, you can watch it and see where and how you make mistakes and such.
What really makes this a good idea is that you may find different methods for completing the game that the previous author never thought of. If you watched the old movie first, you're more likely to just follow along the same path.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
