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Posted: 8/25/2008 9:43 PM
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alden
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
Eh, I only used it once or twice and remember it being finicky. Try reading the docs that come with it carefully... and maybe post in that thread with specific problem. Sorry to not be more helpful :S
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Posted: 8/26/2008 5:43 AM
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TheAxeMan
Ambassador, Experienced player (708)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Very interesting. I've played through this remake but don't know it nearly as well as the original, so I can't give you much specific advice. It looks like you are doing well so far though. I'm eager to see how this party fares as you get further on. The monk is an interesting choice given that his power is more closely tied to his level than other characters and you will only be fighting bosses. Also, I forget how the magic works, but I thought that you still need higher levels to get the higher level magic. I suggest you plan out gold and experience so you know what you can get. With the ability to move faster and avoid random battles you could get much more treasure from the dungeons and either sell or equip it. I know that unlike the original, weapons that are strong against certain monster types actually work properly and might be useful. But then again maybe not considering your party. Good luck!
Posted: 8/26/2008 12:54 PM
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Sir_VG
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TheAxeMan wrote:
I'm eager to see how this party fares as you get further on. The monk is an interesting choice given that his power is more closely tied to his level than other characters and you will only be fighting bosses. Also, I forget how the magic works, but I thought that you still need higher levels to get the higher level magic.
I think the GBA version went to an MP system, which throws out the Level system (somewhat). You're only limited to which characters can cast that spell. But it's been a while since I've played it.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 8/26/2008 6:34 PM
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PureRok
Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho
Well, I grabbed a save that was at the end of the game so I could test out Razer (aka Bane Sword) against Chaos and I had no luck getting it to work. I may be forced to level up my team a bit so they can properly fight him. One thing I wonder if it's possible to Silence Chaos (I really doubt it, but maybe there's a chance.). If I could then that would make the final battle a lot easier, but I think he's immune to pretty much most "effect" spells.
Sir VG wrote:
I think the GBA version went to an MP system, which throws out the Level system (somewhat). You're only limited to which characters can cast that spell.
Well, spells also have a level requirement to be bought and used. Example: A Black Mage can use Thunder at level 1 because it's a level 1 spell, but they can't use Thundara until level 8 because it's a level 3 spell. Physical attacks are nearly useless toward the end of the game. The save I used to test out the Razer sword had nothing but Knights (level 69) and they did horrible damage (except the Knight equipped with Excalibur). If I remember correctly (from when I beat the game) spells are a lot more important in the end game. When I beat it originally I used two Fighters/Knights, a White Mage/Wizard, and a Black Mage/Wizard. I think my knights were pretty useless against Chaos who has something like 20000 HP (roughly 4x as much as Tiamat). Since I can't instantly kill him I'll definitely have to do some leveling throughout the run to be able to cast certain spells. The spell Flare will most likely be my best friend when I fight Chaos, but that means I'd have to do the class change and be level 39, which may not be that big of a deal if I can level up fast enough. We'll see. I haven't planned that far ahead yet. I'll do one initial test run to get a feel for what I'll be needing to do before I make any concrete decisions.
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Posted: 8/26/2008 7:40 PM
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Tafatt
Joined: 12/10/2004
Posts: 82
Location: Ruotsi
Try this strategy vs Chaos. Monk uses Giant's gloves to gain attack power. Black mages uses temper to strengthen monk. Use Hermes's shoes on monk for the haste. The monk should be able to deal very high amounts of damage with this. Use megalixirs & phoenix downs to survive the battle.
Posted: 8/26/2008 8:09 PM
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PureRok
Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho
Tafatt wrote:
Try this strategy vs Chaos. Monk uses Giant's gloves to gain attack power. Black mages uses temper to strengthen monk. Use Hermes's shoes on monk for the haste. The monk should be able to deal very high amounts of damage with this. Use megalixirs & phoenix downs to survive the battle.
That could work. I just did a run on Chaos using the all Knight thing again doing a pure brute-force attack. Doesn't work. Those mages will be useful. I have a .vbm of it. The save I used was a (E) save, sadly, so you will have to use the (E) ROM. My actual run will be on the (U) ROM, though. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1140449640/chaosrunpal.vbm
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Posted: 8/31/2008 12:34 PM
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IST
Joined: 8/26/2008
Posts: 103
I've not played the game too much, but I've noticed Masters are generally quite a bit more powerful than Knights. From what I can tell, you can't really manipulate stat gains too much. On some levels it just will not hand out optimal stats(Or even raise one specific stat if that's all you want) no matter what. On others, it will only take a few reloads. I dunno if that's a problem in the NES or not(I've only played it for a few minutes, really.).
Posted: 8/31/2008 1:01 PM
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Captain_Falcon
Joined: 2/29/2008
Posts: 2
It might be a good idea to abuse the ship game for emergency exits and Fang/Curtain items. It's been a very long time since I've played this game (someone jacked my copy) but I believe the ship game is one of the only ways to get exit items. Also, I considered this for some quick and easy levels at the beginning of the game; Get a few Red Fangs, and head up to the Peninsula of power (it's still in the GBA version) and manipulate a pre-emptive strike against 9 Winter Wolves. Use a couple fangs, wolves die. (402 exp x 9)/4 = 904 exp for everyone per fight. Or you could somehow kill off the mages and have all the exp go to the monk, and that should make him a pretty good powerhouse. This is all really just guesswork, I don't really have the game anymore so I can't investigate any of it, I'm not even sure if the exp gained from Winter Wolves is worth the trip up to the peninsula.
Posted: 9/4/2008 1:42 PM
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Wren
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Joined: 4/11/2005
Posts: 196
Location: Michigan
Okay, so here's what I suggest. The team should be Monk and three black magi. You will want to use the ship game at least twice (possibly three) to get yourself a Cockatrice Claw (can't recall what rank awards them). With frame advance you could easily beat the puzzle in 3 seconds or less. You'll want to use this on Astos to kill him in one turn. The time gained should outweigh the time spent. You'll probably also want to get two Blue Fangs to use on the Piscodemons. I suggest having the Magi use them and I suggest fighting 4 of them to get more exp without spending any time fighting random crap. Naturally this should be tested to see if any time is saved at all. Later on in the game most of your troubles can be avoided by taking a trip to the caravan and investing in some of the stat boosting items he sells. Instead of spending god knowns how many fights grinding you could spend one turn having your team use Giants Tonic to increase your max HP by 200 a pop. I actually see no real reason to get into any random fights in the whole run. In fact, aside from Temper, Haste, and possibly Sleep (for the 9 pirates) I see no reason for any other spells because they do so very little damage and take so long to cast. You could check out my guide at GameFAQs for some more possible ideas. http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/920240/35878 Aside from covering all the bosses up to class change in the lowest level it also lists every item in the game that can boost stats and exactly by how much they boost them in case you don't already know. On that note, I highly suggest that you do NOT class change because it doesn't help at all with levels as low as you'll undoubtedly have. Trust me when I say that optional level grinding isn't needed. I've beaten the game with a solo lowest level thief unclasschanged and even Chaos posed little threat with the proper planning. With three BMs to back you up you'll also not need to worry about assloads of curing like a solo challenge so Chaos should drop in about 5 to 6 well manipulated turns. Oh, and have you figured out how to abuse the RNG in and out of battle yet?
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
Posted: 9/5/2008 1:30 PM
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PureRok
Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho
So far I have not been able to manipulate what the enemy does while in battle.
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Posted: 9/5/2008 1:42 PM
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Wren
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Joined: 4/11/2005
Posts: 196
Location: Michigan
What an enemy does in battle is determined by two things; 1 - the frame the battle was entered in. 2 - the choice of actions your team inputs on any given turn. When doing testing for the plausability of the solo thief lowest level challenge I discovered that I could manipulate Garland into missing by changing the actions I did. So while using an attack would get me killed using a potion would make garland miss. From what I noticed the game categorizes things into "weapon, armor, item and accessory" but no further. So Dagger and Mythril Sword invoked the same RNG values. However, I didn't test that a lot... so it may look at any item used. This not only decides what actions the enemy takes it also decides what stats you gain upon level up. You would ideally want to have your characters gain a fair number of 20+ hp level ups while the monk should also gain stamina and agility upon every level. On that note, never use his weapons... not even while level 1. So, yeah, anyway... you won't want to sell off your starting equipment. In fact, you probably won't need to buy equips for anyone. I found that evade is much more valued since the things that can hit you tend to kill you outright, like Kraken, and the things that use magic are put at a disadvantage with selective leveling for hp/curtains from the ship game.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
Posted: 9/6/2008 10:48 AM
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IST
Joined: 8/26/2008
Posts: 103
Wren wrote:
Okay, so here's what I suggest. The team should be Monk and three black magi. You will want to use the ship game at least twice (possibly three) to get yourself a Cockatrice Claw (can't recall what rank awards them). With frame advance you could easily beat the puzzle in 3 seconds or less. You'll want to use this on Astos to kill him in one turn. The time gained should outweigh the time spent. You'll probably also want to get two Blue Fangs to use on the Piscodemons. I suggest having the Magi use them and I suggest fighting 4 of them to get more exp without spending any time fighting random crap. Naturally this should be tested to see if any time is saved at all. Later on in the game most of your troubles can be avoided by taking a trip to the caravan and investing in some of the stat boosting items he sells. Instead of spending god knowns how many fights grinding you could spend one turn having your team use Giants Tonic to increase your max HP by 200 a pop. I actually see no real reason to get into any random fights in the whole run. In fact, aside from Temper, Haste, and possibly Sleep (for the 9 pirates) I see no reason for any other spells because they do so very little damage and take so long to cast. You could check out my guide at GameFAQs for some more possible ideas. http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/920240/35878 Aside from covering all the bosses up to class change in the lowest level it also lists every item in the game that can boost stats and exactly by how much they boost them in case you don't already know. On that note, I highly suggest that you do NOT class change because it doesn't help at all with levels as low as you'll undoubtedly have. Trust me when I say that optional level grinding isn't needed. I've beaten the game with a solo lowest level thief unclasschanged and even Chaos posed little threat with the proper planning. With three BMs to back you up you'll also not need to worry about assloads of curing like a solo challenge so Chaos should drop in about 5 to 6 well manipulated turns. Oh, and have you figured out how to abuse the RNG in and out of battle yet?
I've used that guide quite a bit. Thanks for making it. :)
Posted: 9/7/2008 2:16 AM
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PureRok
Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho
Wren wrote:
2 - the choice of actions your team inputs on any given turn..
That doesn't work. I've tested it. The enemy does the same thing on the next turn regardless of what I enter.
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Posted: 9/8/2008 3:26 PM
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Wren
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Joined: 4/11/2005
Posts: 196
Location: Michigan
I have to disagree. I've personally used that to great effect. Try having the slot 4 person use a Knife as an item and note what the enemy did and the damage the attack did. Load state and have him use Clothing as an item, jot down what happened. Then use Temper and once again jot it down. At the very least the damage done will vary. Either way, the RNG isn't very flexible and most of the RNG manipulation will be frame battle entered. I've tested it against Lich before and totally prevented her from doing anything but attack. Oh, and on that note, enemies have three kinds of attacks. Attacks, Magic and specials. Attacks and specials can be used freely but magic always follows a set pattern. Lich's first spell will always be Blizzara for example. But if Lich knew a special move she may use it first... not including attacks she may use, of course.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
Posted: 9/9/2008 7:30 AM
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TheAxeMan
Ambassador, Experienced player (708)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Usually when the results only change on different actions it means that each action uses the RNG a different number of times. But the RNG doesn't change with time or button presses. So if the action you change is the last one in the round then there wouldn't be any change. It might be worth figuring out what you can do to change your luck. Unfortunately, this makes RPGs more difficult to TAS, but it's usually still possible. Dragon Warrior 3 has a similar RNG system but with a little work it was possible to make a very beautiful TAS.
Posted: 10/15/2008 1:42 PM
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Wren
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Joined: 4/11/2005
Posts: 196
Location: Michigan
Don't tell me that yet another person gave up on this...
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
Posted: 10/15/2008 4:42 PM
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PureRok
Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho
Nope. I've just been a bit busy. Working on real life stuff is getting in the way a bit. Sorry. I'm still working on it, though.
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Posted: 10/16/2008 3:17 PM
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Wren
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Joined: 4/11/2005
Posts: 196
Location: Michigan
You should post some WIPs. ^_^ I'd love to see how the run is coming.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
Posted: 6/10/2009 5:43 AM
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Lynxis
Joined: 4/8/2007
Posts: 5
No response in this thread in months. I tried doing this back when Tafatt was doing his 2nd run and so I understand why people tend to drop this project. For one, because the in battle RNG is difficult to manipulate, too much time is spent performing trial and error to get preferable results. Likewise, level ups are also difficult to manipulate. The other thing is the ship minigame. No one has been able to figure out how to manipulate it into providing specific prizes. Because of this, it probably shouldn't be abused the way we have been trying. It doesn't seem difficult to manipulate a single Megalixer and Emergency Exit but getting much more out of it is very difficult without spending a lot of time figuring out exactly how it works to get fangs and such in a timely manner. Besides that, even if you get the fangs for instant death against certain bosses, manipulating the in battle RNG, as described above, is difficult. If the chance of success is only a few %, the number of rounds you might have to wait to get it to work simply wouldn't be reasonable. If someone wants to do this by manipulating the ship game and battles for best results, I think they better be experienced in hacking and reading/manipulating the hex variables for the RNG, otherwise you will waste countless hours performing trial and error for a single battle or item. That said, I think this is a perfectly possible TAS by other people but it will have to be done with some limitations in mind, in the interest of actually completing the project. 1. Ship game manipulation is kept to a minimum. You can probably get a megalixer and an emergency exit with relative ease. Don't count on anything else. Use them wisely. 2. Abuse the Bazaars tonics and accept that you might need to grind a bit. I had a save file with a group of level 16 characters on my actual game cart that were standing infront of Chaos. He slaughtered me in no time, regardless of what I did. I spent a couple minutes grinding and came back and fought him with my group at level 25 and was able to win. 3. Planning your path. The same path used for the NES run might not be the best path to take considering that you will have to fight the bosses straight up. For example, my regular play path: Canoe -> Airship -> Class Change (would be skipped for TAS) -> Oxyale -> Waterfall/Cube -> Rosetta Stone -> Bell -> Tiamat -> Kraken -> Marilith -> Chaos. I do it in this order because it gets me the endgame gear as early as possible, making Kraken and Marilith much easier and saving time overall but this works best in an ordinary playthrough so I'm not sure if it would be faster in a TAS. For example, you would probably kill Kraken at the same time you get the Rosetta stone in order to save time so you do not need to come back. Also if you use a mnk/blm/blm/blm group, gear doesn't really matter so this order may not be faster at all and would simply pit you against the harder bosses earlier. If anyone is interested in picking it back up, I recommend taking these things into consideration. I would love to see a good run made of FF1DOS. I would make my own run but I simply don't have much time to devote to it anymore and it wouldn't be very good to begin with.
Posted: 5/26/2010 3:43 AM
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flechette
Joined: 5/24/2010
Posts: 16
Location: chattanooga tn
I've got a work in progress going for this game. Currently working out the number of items I may need later, as I'm at the ship game. Garland dies (starts breaking apart) at frame 6000, and at frame 20000 the battle with the 9 pirates is starting. I beat them in three rounds. So far, no damage taken. I'm using a bit of a different team though, so I'm still kinda unsure about if I want to work down this path. Right now I'm more interested in planning out and working out a reliable path through the game, as well as testing a few other things along the way. I'm interested in Tafatt's WIP's, but all his links are dead. Any comments are welcome (and actually wanted). There was only one thing so far that I'm still going back and trying to fix in the run, and that's that coming out of the Black Magic shop in Pravoka is placing a NPC in the way, and I can't seem to manipulate him to not be there. Stuck losing frames waiting for him to move. The ship game was just me testing it out, until I figure out if I can move the NPC in the town I'm not continuing too far on. Here's the current WIP. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1417798198/24598.vbm I'm going to (try) and manipulate a Deathbringer sword, since it should be effective against both forms of Marilith, Tiamat, and Kraken. Lich should be killable by using earthquake, but I'd have to be level 26 to buy the spell, which is sold in Crescent Lake... which is way way out of the way. So yeah, any thoughts? The only real annoying fights are going to be Lich, Lich, and Chaos.
Posted: 5/26/2010 6:00 AM
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Antoids
Joined: 8/27/2009
Posts: 159
Location: California
Encode
Posted: 5/26/2010 9:40 AM
(Edited: 5/26/2010 2:37 PM)
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neo_omegon
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Nice run. I don’t know the address of manipulating NPC movements, but I predict that the RNG changes only by time　where NPC exists basically, and isn’t reset through whole game like FF6. I have a question. Is it possible to manipulate an initial formation of 15puzzle? EDIT: Corrected my statement a bit.
Posted: 5/26/2010 1:26 PM
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flechette
Joined: 5/24/2010
Posts: 16
Location: chattanooga tn
I've tried waiting for up to the amount of frames lost both before I enter and before I leave the black magic shop, and it seems the npc is always is the same spot. It should be possible to manipulate him to start moving earlier, though. As far as the 15 puzzle, it can be changed by the frame you enter the game. The initial puzzle, that is. You can replay the game again without having to re-enter the game, and the second puzzle (and third, etc) will stay the same. That means, if I enter a puzzle on frame 1, I'll play game A and game B. If I enter on frame 2, I'll play game C and game D, etc etc. I need to check if coming in a different place changes consecutive game boards. The lowest solution I've come across so far was 38 steps, but there should definitely be a lower solution out there. I have a whole sea to figure it out though ^^
Posted: 5/27/2010 3:05 AM
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Wren
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Joined: 4/11/2005
Posts: 196
Location: Michigan
Ah, thankfully some real progress on this. It looks pretty optimized to me so far but there are a few things I was wondering on. During the pirates battle you let one get an attack in, I assume you couldn't get so many to sleep without sacrificing time or stat gains upon leveling? I've only watched the encode so far but I'll be taking a look at the vbm file later so I had to ask. Oh, and as far as the 15 puzzle is concerned I assume you have some way of figuring out the minimum moves? There was a program that would do it for you if you can find it. EDIT: During the Garland fight Baron gained Str and Luck. Kelga only gained Luck. In the pirates fight Baron Only gained Stamina for his first level and Strength and Luck for his second. Kelga gained Stamina first time and Strength Stamina and Luck for the second. If you want the Monk to be doing as much damage as possible he'll need some Strength and Stamina each level you end up getting or at the very least off the easy to manipulate levels that you'll be getting. Luck certainly plays a role in damage as well in that it makes it easier to get critical hits. Monk Hands ATK = [STR / 2] + [(STA + 1) * 3 / 4] Monk Unarmed HLM = [STA / 8] Monk Unarmed GLV = [STA / 8] Monk Unarmed ARM = [[STA / 4] * 3 / 2] Master Hands ATK = [STR / 2] + STA Master Unarmed HLM = [STA / 8] Master Unarmed GLV = [STA / 8] Master Unarmed ARM = [STA / 2] Numbers in brackets like -> [x] means to truncate them; or round towards 0. So [5.9] = 5, [8.3] = 8, [9.0] = 9. I'm sure spending a few frames before each fight to manipulate your gains would pay off in the end. Temper certainly will be the main form of your damage gains but those minor boosts from your forced levels can't hurt. At least I doubt they would. Hell, at the very least you would want to gain agility every level up to maximize the hits per attack. Great run so far, though. Those are mostly just theorized improvements I suggested.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
Posted: 5/27/2010 4:18 AM
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flechette
Joined: 5/24/2010
Posts: 16
Location: chattanooga tn
I do indeed use the same 15 puzzle program that Tafatt linked to in one of the other threads. It takes time to frame advance to a new puzzle and then input that puzzle's setup into the 15 puzzle program to find out the quickest solution. The one at the end of the movie was 38 moves, at 5 frames per move, which is 190 frames. That's not counting the frames getting into the game and either exiting or to continue playing. Shorter games are obviously possible, and longer games will also need to be played (that is, they could all I guess be 20 moves, but I could frame-delay the last input to come into second or third place) to win needed prizes. I also found out that NPC placement is static. They always reset to their starting locations no matter what shop you enter/exit or what frame you enter/exit. They also don't move any quicker depending on your input, unless you're standing right next to them pushing them. You can manipulate the direction they walk, but that's it. I did get out of Pravoka a bit earlier though, by about 20 frames. I tried with my current party (and with Monk/BMagex3) to kill Garland in 5 actions, and not 6. The 3xBM party proved much harder to use in the first fight, and the pirate fight was a nightmare. I'm fairly certain this group will work fine late-game. I still need to go back through and check all 122 frames at Garland. That would be the frame count for 1 monk attack, so if I can do 160 damage the first round, and get a 52 crit first move on the second, I'll take it, as long as it's <122 frames from when the point I enter the fight now. If an enemy misses, it also saves about 5 frames (no damage graphic before 'miss' is displayed). I'd rather not take damage, but I do believe lich/lich/chaos will change that, so even if I get hit I'll take a 5 action fight. The pirate fight was SO much more fun to do than Garland. I believe (if I end up keeping the current Garland fight) that this is as good as this'll get. The attack order is set by frame when a fight starts, and changes depending on action (obviously, if I sleep or prevent them from taking an action by killing them). So if a bunch of pirates get the first move before I can change their actions, I lose time. This was the quickest way I could find to kill them. A 3xBM party would take longer to kill them as well since they all have 24hp. Assuming 1 sleep and 2 fires, that's 3 pirates dead the first round, and then the 3 mages would have to attack. I haven't seen a mage crit at level 2, let alone crit for enough to kill a pirate. It'd take an extra round of attacking to kill them all off.
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