Nice. I already knew about it though. I didn't report it because I was the only person to work on this game.
I had recorded it in my current WIP (which I haven't touched in a long time). I wanted to post Part 2 of this WIP on my youtube account after I had beaten Frank and Frankystein, but sadly I haven't done that yet.
Still, it's nice to see someone else found that time saver as well! :)
I've been doing a little thinking about the battle strategies for this new glitch run.
I think that death-warping past Starman Jr. will save a little bit of time, provided that setting up the Spiteful Crow takes little time. Provoke a red-swirl & luck-manipulate 2 SMAAAASH! attacks to defeat Ness before Buzz Buzz attacks even once. You'll still have enough money for the Tee Ball Bat, I think, and beating a random punk on the street will give as much experience as Starman Jr. for a much quicker battle (if the extra experience is truly needed).
Perhaps we could get a red-swirl in Peaceful Rest Valley to quickly give Ness a cold, timing it so that he collapses just after recruiting Paula. But, in the current run, Ness is already almost out of HP by the time he rescues Paula, so that probably won't matter.
I see two ways to beat Ness's Nightmare:
1) Forget about reviving Paula & Jeff in Magicant -- unghost yourself from the glitch at the door to Flying Man's house. Recruit a Flying Man, grab the Magicant Bat, and SMAAAASH! Ness's Nightmare to death. Ness is already going to receive massive level-ups, so he might as well just absorb everything himself from the battle.
2) Revive Paula & Jeff with Ness's Mom in Magicant, and use Paula's prayer to confuse Ness's Nightmare. It can blast itself with rockin' omega, while Paula helps out with some light-chasing prayers. Jeff can drop, but Ness must stay conscious so that he doesn't disappear into the ether after Magicant (stranding Paula in Saturn Valley after beating Giygas).
As for Giygas...
1) Just have Ness (and maybe Flying Man) SMAAAASH! Pokey's lights out, while you manipulate misses from both Giygas & Pokey.
2) Have Paula put them to sleep with prayer, and beat them down while asleep.
3) Have Paula confuse them, and let them blast each other (manipulate Giygas to miss himself).
For phase two of Giygas, let him blast himself with reflected lightning while you suppliment with PSI Rockin & light-chasing prayers. For phase 3, just have Giygas do nothing on his turns.
Jeff & Poo are useless in the Cave of the Past without doing some preparation. Jeff's speed is much too low to hit with Bottle Rockets on Pokey or Giygas without detouring for the Rabbit's Foot. That would involve either beating Electro Specter or doing the walk-through-walls glitch a 3rd time, but if we do, then we could steal a Multibottle Rocket on the way to Giygas.... Poo simply doesn't have enough PP to use Starstorm Omega, and he missed out on learning the alpha version. Detouring for the Bag of Dragonite in Magicant may be worth it, just to give them something to do. Or they could be meat shields to absorb reflected blows from phase-1-Giygas.
2) Revive Paula & Jeff with Ness's Mom in Magicant, and use Paula's prayer to confuse Ness's Nightmare. It can blast itself with rockin' omega, while Paula helps out with some light-chasing prayers. Jeff can drop, but Ness must stay conscious so that he doesn't disappear into the ether after Magicant (stranding Paula in Saturn Valley after beating Giygas).
I'm not sure why I didn't think of confusion on Ness's Nightmare, but now that the possibility is out there, I'll improve it:
3) Revive Paula & Jeff with Ness's Mom in Magicant, and use Paula's prayer to confuse Ness's Nightmare on turn 1 after it uses Shield beta. It can blast itself with a glorious light (i.e., Flash gamma) for an instant kill.
As for Giygas, strategy 1 is out of the question. It's just too much manipulation, even for a TAS. Strategy 2 is intriguing, and strategy 3 might require too much luck. I'm not sure what causes characters to wake up or return to normal.
Ha, ha! Awesome -- I never thought to have Ness's Nightmare flash itself.
Regarding the status ailments, this what I've got in my notes (most taken from various places on starmen.net):
The only way to cure feeling strange status (aside from PSI Healing beta or higher) is to be hit with a non-SMAAAASH!ing bash-like attack. Unfortunately, both of Pokey's attacks are bash-like. So we'd need to have him use gas, miss himself, or SMAAAASH! himself.
And Giygas only has a 16% to miss himself with his own attacks. I think confusion is out of the question.
Sleep wears off with 50% probability when hit with any damage-dealing attack, and wears off naturally with 25% probability on the character's turn.
Probably the best strategy is to put Giygas to sleep, let Pokey wake up, and have Poo keep him frozen while he gets smacked with Legendary Bat physicals from Ness & light-chasing prayers (or PSI Freeze) from Paula.
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
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So here's a quick WIP I made of skipping Starman Jr. What I have here (at least up to entering the Minch household) is 1266 frames (~21 seconds) faster than the published movie.
A few things that could be improved right off the bat:
- I don't yet understand how to manipulate things regarding the Guts stat (i.e. how to get Smash attacks and how to survive mortal blows). Because of this, I let a Coil Snake drain my HP. It would be almost twice as fast to let a Spiteful Crow do it, but I would need to have Ness survive the Crow's fifth hit for it to work, since it would normally kill him.
- I probably should have lured the final Coil Snake down beyond the bend of the cliff, so that I could get it to approach me after getting Picky and Buzz Buzz, saving possibly a second.
Also, getting back to the Guts stat, it seems from my experience that Smash attacks and surviving mortal blows act somewhat independently from the RNG that I normally watch (the one that is changed by moving around the battle menu). For example, I tried bashing that first Coil Snake I got into a fight with in the WIP, but it kept being a Smash attack no matter how many times I changed up the RNG. I ended up having to defend the first round, since I didn't want to kill it.
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
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Excuse my language, but HOLY SHIT, nice way to lure the Coil Snake. I didn't even know that staggering your walking would do that to an enemy. Very, very nice.
Also, although skipping Buzz Buzz is awesome, the drawback of not getting the Sound Stone is that it couldn't be used during the glitch to "refresh" areas. It's unfortunate, since the Sound Stone isn't needed otherwise in a glitched run. Is there any way around this that anyone can think of? (Floogal? Nitrodon?) The Town map would work in certain areas, but unfortunately not for purposes of the run.
Actually, is it even necessary to "refresh" an area to get the door pointer tables working?
Unfortunately, the door trigger points seem to be part of the tileset... This is an example that shows me walking through what should be a door in an unloaded tileset area. Then I load the tileset and the door's trigger point is loaded (though I have no clue why there are so many graphical glitches here, the other places I tried were fine, except the doors were not big enough to easily prove my point). So unless all the doors you need are within an area with a map trigger point (which is highly doubtful), you will need the sound stone. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1182080848/blahmoomoo-earthbound-doors-dont-load.smv
EDIT: oh yeah... the graphical glitches are due to the fact that the eagle eye (or whatever it is called) was not used at the entrance to this area since I went straight to the exit with the tendras.
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
That's unfortunate, it would have been a nice touch to skip Buzz Buzz (though a bit heartless).
Anyway (I forgot to mention this earlier), I assumed since all the beginning enemies have a Guts stat of 0, they couldn't Smash you. Is this correct? Or does it mean that there's still a base chance (like 1/256) of them Smashing you?
I don't understand how speed isn't entertainment. I've seen so many comments on how you should "sacrifice some speed for entertainment". I think anything that sacrifices speed becomes less entertaining.
Totally false. Best example: any fighting game. Fastest way could be to use the same attack over and over and over and over again... that would be incredibly boring. Using diversity is longer, but it's a lot more entertaining.
What I'm saying here is that it depends on the occasions. Sometimes, doing something funny can justify losing a few frames. For example, FODA took a little more time in Mario 64 to make a good screenshot for his run (Mario having his face "fusionned" with a star) instead of simply turning around. He lost a few frames but it was worth it because it created a funny moment.
Speed is not ALWAYS more entertaining, and being too slow can also be less entertaining. It all depends.
I concur. 100% TAS runs are much more entertaining for me to watch how fast someone can obtain all items in any particular game.
Anyway (I forgot to mention this earlier), I assumed since all the beginning enemies have a Guts stat of 0, they couldn't Smash you. Is this correct? Or does it mean that there's still a base chance (like 1/256) of them Smashing you?
Those skip-Starman-Jr. videos are awesome.
Now, how exactly does the skip Buzz Buzz trick work? The hotspot extends from the top of the room to the bottom. Anyways, the trick should be used in a non-glitch run, but unfortunately not this one.
One other thing I've noticed -- the sanctuary hotspots. As you can guess, each sanctuary has a large hotspot that causes you to heal & record a melody when stepped on.
But Giant Step & Lillyput steps have TWO hotspots -- one that you must pass over before hitting the sound-recording one. My guess is that they set flags.
Now, if the one by Giant's Step happens to trigger the cops ready to fight you in the station, then we could skip actually recording the melody.
EDIT: Nope, I just tested it. Stopping just before where you record the melody & backtracking has no apparent effect. Who knows what that hotspot does?
It could just be an old artefact that does nothing -- there is a hotspot in Magicant lying in a completely unaccessible area.
The other Giant Step hotspot isn't even loaded when entering that area, so I am sure that it doesn't do anything (at least at that point). I know practically nothing about hotspots in general, so I can't say anything else on the subject (except the obvious) with any certainty.
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
Nitrodon wrote:
The minimum SMAAAASH probability is 1/20.
Hm, so I guess my next question would be whether it would be possible to have a Crow Smash Ness twice in a row before Buzz Buzz does his shield thing. In this case, there would be no need to get into a battle beforehand to lower Ness' HP. It may still be faster to sit through Buzz's shield anyway, if it's not possible for the Crow to kill Ness before he puts it up. It would also be nice if the Crows can be lured with the trick showcased in gocha's WIP recently posted.
Back to my other question: Any chance you'd be willing to explain to me how to manipulate a Smash? =]
Floogal wrote:
Now, how exactly does the skip Buzz Buzz trick work? The hotspot extends from the top of the room to the bottom.
I was wondering much the same. I think he walks past the hotspot before it loads... somehow.
Hm, so I guess my next question would be whether it would be possible to have a Crow Smash Ness twice in a row before Buzz Buzz does his shield thing. In this case, there would be no need to get into a battle beforehand to lower Ness' HP. It may still be faster to sit through Buzz's shield anyway, if it's not possible for the Crow to kill Ness before he puts it up. It would also be nice if the Crows can be lured with the trick showcased in gocha's WIP recently posted.
Theoretically, it's possible. I've manipulated action orders with more extreme speed ratios in the current TAS. The manipulation to get everything at once might be longer than it takes for Buzz Buzz to put up a shield, depending on how cooperative the RNG is.
Back to my other question: Any chance you'd be willing to explain to me how to manipulate a Smash? =]
The main reason you're having trouble is probably the fact that the enemy needs to target you. This significantly reduces the number of states that the RNG can be in when the game decides whether the attack is a SMAAAASH or not. If you fight an enemy such as Frankystein Mark II, you can see a clear difference in how easy it is for Ness to manipulate a SMAAAASH (on odd-numbered turns in this case).
gocha wrote:
I'd like to show another applications of stutter walk:
Can this be used to avoid the photographer in Grapefruit Falls and Dusty Dunes Desert? Also, if you skip the spot after the pyramid, what happens at the end of the Master Barf battle, and can you still teleport later in the game?
Hmm... So this stutter-step technique can be used to pass over sufficiently-thin hotspots....
Perhaps we could skip the whole meteorite mess at the start & just go south to Onett? But that's not a hotspot according to PK Hack, so it probably won't work.
Anyways, I quickly tested the pyramid thing. Nothing gets messed up -- the game is perfectly happy with a party of six (Chosen 4, Dungeon Man, Super Plush Bear). The end of the Master Barf fight is exactly like before -- the boss's death action must have some kind of "add Poo to the party if he's not already in it" command. Poo still learns PSI Starstorm alpha.
The trigger point for losing & regaining the ability to teleport is from adding & dropping Dungeon Man from your party, respectively. Poo's presense has no effect on this. I'm not sure what other teleporting-loss event you're referring to.
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
I love those stutter walk movies, definitely very helpful, a lot of them could even be used in the non-glitched run. I actually laughed at the museum one, Ness and company "sneak" in without paying. =]
Floogal wrote:
Perhaps we could skip the whole meteorite mess at the start & just go south to Onett? But that's not a hotspot according to PK Hack, so it probably won't work.
It's really not a hotspot? How does the game trigger the text that appears? Is it an invisible wall or something? It's too bad, because it would be awesome to walk around Onett at night so early in the game.
Nitrodon wrote:
The main reason you're having trouble is probably the fact that the enemy needs to target you. This significantly reduces the number of states that the RNG can be in when the game decides whether the attack is a SMAAAASH or not. If you fight an enemy such as Frankystein Mark II, you can see a clear difference in how easy it is for Ness to manipulate a SMAAAASH (on odd-numbered turns in this case).
So basically, is my best bet just to change up the RNG like I have been doing (i.e. by moving around the battle command menu) until I get SMAAAASHed?
I'm also really curious: Did you and Halamantariel use macros for moving around the menu to change the RNG? For instance, if you wanted to change the RNG 35 times before selecting Bash, you could have set up a macro that moves the cursor 4 times back to the Bash command. Then you could use the macro 8 times and then manually input the last 3 movements (or even have a separate macro for 3 movements of the cursor). I don't actually know how to program macros at all, so I was just curious if this is possible and/or you two used it.
I'm also really curious: Did you and Halamantariel use macros for moving around the menu to change the RNG? For instance, if you wanted to change the RNG 35 times before selecting Bash, you could have set up a macro that moves the cursor 4 times back to the Bash command. Then you could use the macro 8 times and then manually input the last 3 movements (or even have a separate macro for 3 movements of the cursor). I don't actually know how to program macros at all, so I was just curious if this is possible and/or you two used it.
Simple: Logitech G15 keyboard. It has a lot of macro keys on the left, which can record keyboard presses and play them back. Basically, I have 18 macro keys, which are programmed to use from 2 to 19 RNGs (recorded manually at first). To manipulate something like 35 RNGs, I'd use 19+16 (pressing 2 macro keys).
Oh, by the way, I have the "old" G15, not the new one. The old has the blue backlight and 18 macro keys, while the new one has an orange-ish backlight and 6 macro keys.
Also, if what you want to do is manipulate the first round of the battle, your best bet is to use the B-button "menu" outside of battle right before going into it. The B-button menu uses 1 RNG per frame. Try it out, you'll get to love that little bugger! :)
The trigger point for losing & regaining the ability to teleport is from adding & dropping Dungeon Man from your party, respectively. Poo's presense has no effect on this. I'm not sure what other teleporting-loss event you're referring to.
When you exit the pyramid, you are unable to teleport, most likely to prevent you from avoiding the "Poo leaves" hotspot via teleport crashing.
ElectroSpecter wrote:
Floogal wrote:
Perhaps we could skip the whole meteorite mess at the start & just go south to Onett? But that's not a hotspot according to PK Hack, so it probably won't work.
It's really not a hotspot? How does the game trigger the text that appears? Is it an invisible wall or something? It's too bad, because it would be awesome to walk around Onett at night so early in the game.
It's a series of doors for some reason.
Nitrodon wrote:
The main reason you're having trouble is probably the fact that the enemy needs to target you. This significantly reduces the number of states that the RNG can be in when the game decides whether the attack is a SMAAAASH or not. If you fight an enemy such as Frankystein Mark II, you can see a clear difference in how easy it is for Ness to manipulate a SMAAAASH (on odd-numbered turns in this case).
So basically, is my best bet just to change up the RNG like I have been doing (i.e. by moving around the battle command menu) until I get SMAAAASHed?
I generally used a spreadsheet to find out exactly which RNG states will cause a SMAAAASH.
