Post subject: Real-timers take a step back to think
Former player
Joined: 9/26/2004
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I noticed in the recent "I'm writing an article about you guys" thread that everyone seems to agree that real time players have certain issues with tool-assisted movies, be it nervousness, unchecked aggression, or just plain jealousy. I've been pondering this and I think they're backing off a bit. There doesn't seem to be as much animosity as there used to be surrounding emulated movies and I think they're starting to be accepted as a valuable asset to the gaming community. Some examples: Mr. Kelly R Flewin has an account here and posts often. Yesterday I shot him a PM over at Twin Galaxies noting that he should probably consider banning the thru-wall technique used in the latest SMB vids. He basically responded with, "I know - I saw. The time-attackers help me notice many things I never would have gotten on my own or from anyone at TG." Phil and Genisto's Punch Out vid has been the talk of the town for the last 2 months over at the Gamefaqs MTPO!! board. At first, it was met with serious hostility, but taking some fighters 20+ seconds faster than ever thought possible opened up a whole new world of strategies. Now Phil and Genisto's movie is looked at as a valuable tool for discovering new console methods. Metroid2002.com is the home of Red Scarlet, who patented the 2-item run, and everyone there seems very pleased with the fact that it was taken 1 item further. Now not only are people thinking of the possibility that it might be pulled off on a console, seeing the boldness of the 1-item run is making many of them actually attempt the 2-item run on a console - a feat never considered before. Someone out there is going to work Phil's "jump backwards to gain maximum speed" technique in SMB to get a faster console run - even if they can't time it right at the beginning of the stages, it is still easy coming out of the pipes. I'm sure we can all expect a new world record soon. I'm sure there are many more examples, but this is just what one single casual player noticed. We all started on a console, some of us still play on them, but emulation has certainly opened up a whole new world of gaming and I think the die hard consolers are going to have to accept the fact that at 1% speed with re-records, you notice things. I think the best real-time players either already use or will eventually use these tools to clean up and maximize their real time runs and the only closed minded people crying about the purity of the NES aren't solid players or are threatened that their world records may be beaten by someone discovering something they couldn't. Just food for thought.
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Phil's backward jumps requires pressing left and right at the same time, and thus can not be done on a console.
Joined: 1/1/2022
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I know. I've been planning a real-time Zelda 2 run, and I've been using an emulator version to practice.
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So it was jealousy after all huh.
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Bob Whoops wrote:
Phil's backward jumps requires pressing left and right at the same time, and thus can not be done on a console.
I am not sure, but I think just pressing left mave save 1 frame compared to 4 frames when pressing left+right. When exiting pipe, I don't know. Unfortunately, with only 1 frame faster, I think it's not enough to make 8-3 two timeunits faster. I am happy that our MTPO helps Matt Turk. I red that adelikat found a way to improve DF2. I doubt someone can beat our video at full speed but still exist a way to improve it. I have my idea how it is possible to manipulate this luck but I am tired of this game :P and will try later. Maybe I will wait Matt Turk's strategy to be sure it's what I thought. Well, I know crouching change completely the random of this fight. There's a high chance it's that. The problem, since I don't know how to hex-edit FCEU movie file, I must redo Mr. Sandman, Super Macho Man and Mike Tyson fight. I don't want to redo these fights.
Post subject: Re: Real-timers take a step back to think
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[Edited by Michael Fried: How hard is it to critique someone without flaming and using offensive language? I suggest that you refresh your memory on the rules before posting again, and maybe even read them before every time you post, since being constantly reminded doesn't seem to be enough for you.]
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wow, never have I seen such a green eyed monster before.
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How did this guy get 16 posts without being banned?
Post subject: Re: Real-timers take a step back to think
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pierrot wrote:
A) If your statement contains the words "The only people", you're as closed-minded as anyone else.
Oh, the irony..... And what the hell is wrong with people who are against rerecorded runs? You can't make an argument without using 'fuck' every other sentance? Does that make your arguments more better? More credible? To me, it just makes you look like an idiot.
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Well if it's not that " The one who loves to lost his time by irritating people" aka. baby pierrot.
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Left+right and up+down are possible on a console...it may require certain types of controllers, but it's doable. I recall someone (FODA?) saying on here that he uses it to make stage 11 of Battletoads easier. That's the whole reason these glitches are OK for timeattacks, IIRC... -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
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First, I would recommend to the mods to not edit this post - he makes some valid points. Second, you can insult us all you want, but you can't envy us at the same time. Over and over you talk about the only impact we have on the community is damaging, yet you say there is nothing threatening about the videos. People will believe whatever they want to - that's not the issue. Morimoto's video was certainly the starting point of everything, making the truth ambiguous to the viewer, but to say that nothing good has ever come of these videos or nothing has been discovered as a result is simply asinine. I've been playing Punch Out since its inception and the common goal is to defeat the opponents as fast as possible. I never could get Super Macho Man under 1:15, but after watching Phil's video, I can take him out flawlessly close to the 1:00 mark every time and I'm closer every time to sub 1:00 - on a console. Nobody on this board holds the weight to the videos you're telling us we do. Why then are legitimate players getting upset that we, in basic terms, think we're better than you are? There's a reason "author" is before every game title and not "player." Besides, and here's something you may not have noticed, but getting a video for A Boy And His Blob isn't the easiest thing to do. I was huge into Punch Out (again) about a year ago and wanted to see how I rated up with other players - a short list of times really doesn't help as they can be falsified, and even if they're all legitimate, if a player can beat me by 5 minutes, I'd like to know how. After hours and hours of searching, I came up with one simple site with 4 (4!!!) videos on it - and they weren't that good. Somehow, I tossed and turned around the search engines until I ended up here, where I found over 100 videos of classic games. Legit time players don't seem to want to waste their time posting a video for A Nightmare on Elm Street, but, as you can see, it can be in high demand. You can say all day long that anyone watching a video is mislead into believing it's real, but it's not like real-time players were filling up my hard drive with classic NES videos. It's just too much trouble with a VCR for anyone to bother. The only videos you'll find out there for anything classic are going to be emulated, and with emulation comes tool-assisted - best you get used to that idea. Oh, and thanks for the "fuckstick." Really touched up your fanboy argument. You forgot to throw in something about rubber and glue.
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First, I would recommend to the mods to not edit this post - he makes some valid points. I don't care whether his points were valid or not. He's already been reminded enough times, so he should know what the rules are and doesn't deserve to have his posts dealt with leniently by the mods. In case he wants to post again with the same points but in a more civilized manner, I have his message saved, so if he wants I can PM it to him so he can make the proper modifications and re-post it. Edit: Morimoto's video was certainly the starting point of everything Actually it wasn't. It definitely made save state runs much more popular, but there have been save state runs made way earlier. Yy's warpless SMB run, for example, was made more than 3 years earlier.
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I was speaking of the popularity.
nesrocks
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Josh the FunkDOC wrote:
Left+right and up+down are possible on a console...it may require certain types of controllers, but it's doable. I recall someone (FODA?) saying on here that he uses it to make stage 11 of Battletoads easier. That's the whole reason these glitches are OK for timeattacks, IIRC... -Josh
I opened the controller, removed the plastic part of the D-pad (leaving exposed the rubber part which is the real contacts) so that i could press the directions sure that it wouldnt press 2 directions at the same time. But it can also be used to intentionally press left+right or up+down.... :S
Post subject: Re: Real-timers take a step back to think
Joined: 7/20/2004
Posts: 108
-ziplock- wrote:
I've been pondering this and I think they're backing off a bit. There doesn't seem to be as much animosity as there used to be surrounding emulated movies and I think they're starting to be accepted as a valuable asset to the gaming community.
Probably because the opponents started watching the movies and saw how cool they are. You can bitch and flame and put down TASes all you want, but once you actually see them, it'll be hard to not find them entertaining, especially if it's a favorite game of yours. That's good that they're getting more respect now, but who really cares what people think about what we do here? It's the internet. It all goes away when you turn off your computer (or disconnect the modem, for us cavemen who are stuck with teh dial-up). Let them complain and get their panties in a bunch over it. It won't stop us from enjoying the movies.
Joined: 4/12/2004
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I haven't been checking this forum for a while, but I decided to see what was going on in this neck of the woods, and I saw this topic. I've always thought that civilized discussion on this topic was a good thing, but unfortunately these debates usually degenerate into flame wars which is why I never got involved in the infamous GameFaqs discussions a few months back. I think that there's still some misunderstanding on both sides of this. There was a discussion here before which I initiated, but I think we all just got sick of talking about it at the time. :) Let me try to explain my position again on the tool assisted time attacks. My first point concerns the videos themselves. I've stated in the past many times that these videos have good qualities. Many people do find them entertaining, and they do have great informative value. I've learned some new tricks from them myself, just as I have learned new things from legit videos and FAQs. I think that any reasonable gamer will agree that the resulting product taken on its own merits is good. As a gamer, I admire the creativity and effort that goes into making a good time attack. In fact, I have complimented them on occasion. My objection to tool assisted time attacks is philosophical in nature. To me, how one accomplishes something is just as important as what one accomplishes. I've always been opposed to Utilitarian based ethics in which the goal is the primary concern. I believe that there is a fair balance that must be kept between the "means" and the "end". I don't believe that there's anything inherently wrong with what you do here, but I do stand by my belief that it is harmful to competitive and achievement based gaming on the whole. As a hardcore gamer, the usage of tools to purposefully defeat the challenge of playing a game as it was designed just bothers me at a deep level. I'm going to use Golf as an example for comparison. Golf is similar to speed runs in many respects. You play through a course to the best of your ability, and you compete indirectly with others by comparing final results. Now, imagine that someone invented a special type of self-guiding golf club. This club would come with a handheld laser pointer, which you would use to define a destination for the ball. The club would then aid your own natural swing to get the result that you wanted. I'm just speculating, but I think many people would love this idea and use it for training. It would help you learn the motions and develop muscle memory for making accurate shots. It would also allow you to make some amazing shots that would otherwise be humanly impossible. I think that most purists would reject this device on principle, but I think many would tolerate it as a practice tool. Now take it a step further and imagine that a new league was created in which these clubs were allowed, and they would play on the same courses that non-assisted players used although records and scores would technically be separate. I think there would be a lot of angry and disenfranchised players, and I believe that they would be justified in feeling that way. Resentment between the two parties would be a natural result. I think that the Golf analogy is not very different from what has happened with speed runs and achievement based gaming in general. The problem isn't jealousy. I'm truly not very concerned about how many people see my work or that my work might possibly be overshadowed by tool assisted videos. I mainly make videos to provide proof and to let my online friends enjoy my work. I was taping my achievements long before I even knew about capture cards, online videos, and Twin Galaxies. I don't play for recognition although that is nice. I play because I find it satisfying to master a game from scratch or at the very least play it well. Someone once asked me why I haven't done a speed run for SMB3. I did not give the complete answer for fear of igniting another argument. I cited the random hand levels in world 8, which is completely true, but I did not mention that seeing Morimoto's video last year ruined that game for me. Not knowing how a perfect run would play out is part of the appeal in striving for it, which presumably motivates many of you to strive for perfection. Unfortunately, it just isn’t fun to mimic a run which I have no hope of surpassing. Anyway, I have a tendency to be very long winded in opinion posts so I'll shut up for now. I welcome any civil discussion although to be perfectly honest I think this is something that we'll just have to "agree to disagree" on.
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Well, I'm not going to discuss the golf analogy, since apparently every analogy that I've ever made about time attacks has been wrong :/ Ok, yes I am >_< I think it's a decent anaolgy (I'm not going to nitpick). The thing however that makes time attacking acceptable to me is what you mentioned before about both the ends and the means being important. I couldn't agree more. Everyone must admit that rerecorded runs look better if you compare them equally. However, which one is more impressive is a completly different matter. I think that speed runs are a lot more impressive. But do other people in the internet know (or care) about that? Perhaps not :/
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Thanks for the good post. I think you summed things up quite well when talking about the effect Morimoro's movie had on you. Essentially, unlike you, I like knowing limits. Although I've never done a real speedrun, I have made some high-score runs of various arcade games; if people had made tool-assisted movies showing the highest possible scores for them, I would be inspired to try and get as close to them as possible. To be able to say that I was within, say, 3% of perfection would motivate me as I like having concrete data like that available. Of course, there is also the issue of knowing what "perfection" is...runs that seem perfect like Michael Fried's SMB and a few of Morimoto's have turned out to be quite beatable indeed. But then, that really isn't central to what we're talking about here. Just means that we can't necessarily assume that we've reached perfection, and that you can't necessarily assume that there's nothing more to a game after seeing a timeattack. I dunno, maybe this is just an "agree to disagree" issue. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
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Agree to disagree indeed, I don't think much more can be done than that. Also, your Super Monkey Ball 2 video actually was impressive enough to cause me to recently buy the game, and I enjoy it. I don't think I'd do the same if I saw a tool-assisted run of it. The run would not spoil the game for me or anything like that, but there is some automatic feeling of competition, or comparing yourself with another when you see someone legitimately do something very impressive. When I saw the 26 minute Mario 64 video, I felt an even more competitive feeling. I felt I could beat it, and even though I probably wouldn't have sent it in to SDA or anything, it would have been fun to. It's just more fulfilling than beating a tool-assisted run. As bob said, I find speed runs to be more impressive than time attacks- but that doesn't mean I don't find both equally entertaining.
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I like to think of tool-assisted speedrunners as speedrunners capable of time travel.
Joined: 12/5/2004
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My general thoughts on the issue (And my apologies in advance, as I will likely not add anything new to the discussion, and this will be fairly incoherent as well): As someone who has recently taken an interest in speed-running games, I must say that some of the time attacks here have helped me greatly, either in refining my own technique (IE "Okay, move A is easy enough to do on a console...all right, move B seems impossible, but let's try move C instead..hey, that'll save me a few seconds..." etc.), or in identifying glitches that should be discussed before a speedrun is attempted (As TwinGalaxies generally frowns on glitches). In short, I personally have no major problems with them, as long as the authors and whoever passes them on are forthcoming about the methods used in recording them (Slowdown, save states, anything else I may have missed). Now, from what I observed--and I could very well be wrong--most of the controversy concerning these videos ignited when Morimoto's SMB3 video was passed around as, for lack of a better term, a "legit" gaming performance, through no fault of his own (As an amusing sidenote, people seemed determined to discredit the video by any means possible. My personal favorite was "OMG H R TEH CHEATER LOOK AT TEH CLOK CHANGE SPEEDS!!1!", as anyone who's actually paid attention when they play the game knows the game clock is based on Mario's speed). Since then, a primary mantra of the time attack community has been "We don't claim that these are legitimate gaming performances". Yet from what I've seen, the actions of the community do not always support the words. Now I'll grant that things may have changed recently (The first example in particular is almost a year old). Around February of this year, Arc posted on the Metroid2002 forums (Topic at http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=210 and scroll down a bit) saying "Look at my 17-minute run!" and a link to his tool-assisted video. And that was it. It was only after he got called out on it that he A. admitted it was tool-assisted, and B. posted the link to the Why and How page. By then, of course, it was too late; the damage had been done, and the speedrunners vs. time-attackers rift had widened. Now as near as I can tell, Arc had initially expected those who watched it to magically find their way to the Why and How page after watching the video. Of course, most of the people there didn't do this, but I still feel as though Arc should have been a little more forthcoming about his methods initially. Then, of course, there was the Super Metroid time-attack that someone tried to pass off as a legitimate run sometime in August. As near as I can tell, this was the worst-case scenario brought to life, the situation that speedrunners and timeattackers alike fear (The speedrunners because this compromises everything they do; the timeattackers because it seemingly contradicts their message of "We're not competing with the speedrunners"). Yet from what I read, the basic reaction from this community was little more than "Oh, too bad someone tried to submit it as a legitimate run, because it's a great time attack...". Were I a timeattacker, I would've made sure to distance myself from whoever tried to pass the video off as legit as much as possible, to make it clear that passing emulator-assisted movies off as legitimate runs is not what I nor the community is about. Of course, maybe this was done, and I just didn't see it. Yet at the same time, I find the primary complaint of speedrunners--that tool-assisted videos somehow take away interest from what they're doing--to be a strange one at best. I personally feel that if you're speedrunning games primarily for some sort of Internet glory, you should really rethink your motives. Nor do I buy the argument that timeattackers are somehow less skilled than speedrunners. I'll grant that making a tool-assisted video requires a very different skillset (Yeah, you can tell I've hung out at Twin Galaxies) than speedrunning, but the massive investments of time on both sides seems to me to be more similar than either side may want to admit. Just an outsider's take on the issue. EDIT: I was evidently in error when I said that it was presumably the author of the Super Metroid video that tried to pass it off as legit. This has been changed, and I apologize for the inaccuracy.
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That didn't seem so bad. Though Arc was certainly wrong in not explaining more, the reactions weren't so bad. Red Scarlet especially. It was certainly better than the flame wars over on gamefaqs.
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Bob Whoops wrote:
That didn't seem so bad...It was certainly better than the flame wars over on gamefaqs.
I'd like to thank our moderators for that, as they actually respond to flames and other bad netiquette. *pats self on back*
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Bahaha, the gamefaqs one was so funny... some people take everything so seriously :)