Posted: 12/13/2004 9:48 PM
Post subject: More restart discussion
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-ziplock-
Former player
Joined: 9/26/2004
Posts: 217
I've been playing around with a new route in Metroid and, although when finished may not apply to this situation, it might come up in the future when it comes to deaths and restarts. I hope I word this well enough so as to not confuse, but here goes: Movie A - with restarts, 10 minutes; without restarts, 15 minutes. Movie B - with restarts, 5 minutes; without restarts, 20 minutes. Judging in the past is simple - "Is this movie faster than the published one? It uses restarts and the published movie doesn't." "Well, the only way to know for sure is to check the frames of the published movie and see if it would be faster using restarts." But what if an entirely different route makes a way faster movie, but would be slower if it didn't use resets? Make any sense?
Posted: 12/13/2004 10:01 PM
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Blechy
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Because resets are allowed in this game, I think it is that time that should be paid attention to. It shouldn't matter which route would route would be faster IF restarts weren't used, because they are being used. I think that's the question you asked.
Posted: 12/13/2004 10:27 PM
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Bob_Whoops
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Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA
I get what you are saying. But what are you asking? Which should obsolete what? Which is preferred the first time around? What?
Posted: 12/13/2004 10:37 PM
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-ziplock-
Former player
Joined: 9/26/2004
Posts: 217
Blechy wrote:
It shouldn't matter which route...would be faster IF restarts weren't used, because they are being used.
If that were the case, Arc's any% movie would have been obseleted by Zoizite's 1% run because it's 2 minutes faster. But it's understood that Arc's run could be faster than Zoizite's using UP+A. But let's say it wouldn't be - then, Arc's run would be faster not restarting and Zoizite's movie would be faster with restarting. I guess I'm just asking what would obselete what - or would there just be 2 standings?
Posted: 12/13/2004 11:49 PM
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feitclub
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
I <3 brevity, therefore I <3 UP+A
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Posted: 12/14/2004 12:27 AM
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NecroVMX
Player (71)
Joined: 8/13/2004
Posts: 205
it should be allowed it any game that you can do it with button presses, such as metroid, the zeldas and whatnot
Posted: 12/14/2004 12:47 AM
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Blechy
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
That is a different case because Zoizite adds an additional category to his movie. If Arc made a fast-as-possible movie not using warps(the current movie on the site), and then Zoizite came along and made a movie which was faster and used warps, it would be up to the community to decide which they would favor- this debate was had, and it seems like it was concluded that warps are accepted, acknowledging that any current runs not using them will be updated to use them. Now say this movie by Zoizite was published, and Arc made a movie which was faster. If it didn't use warps, that would be very impressive because it beat a run that did, and would probably be published. If it did use warps, it would still be faster, and also likely be published. Does that help?
Posted: 12/14/2004 10:30 AM
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-ziplock-
Former player
Joined: 9/26/2004
Posts: 217
Well, not as such - it's more like the fact that one uses "warps" (or some such variation) and one doesn't. The first is faster with and the second is faster without. How do you judge which is better?
Posted: 12/14/2004 5:19 PM
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kopernical
Former player
Joined: 3/24/2004
Posts: 132
Location: Indiana
-ziplock- wrote:
Well, not as such - it's more like the fact that one uses "warps" (or some such variation) and one doesn't. The first is faster with and the second is faster without. How do you judge which is better?
Whichever one is faster? It seems like you're implying that "warps" are somehow unacceptable and I don't know why that would be the case.
Posted: 12/14/2004 10:37 PM
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Zoizite
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Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 146
Location: Dirty South, USA.
Arc's run was not obsoleted for a few reasons: *Arc's has a much more efficient route for an as fast as possible run. *Even a sloppy Up+A run based on the route in Arc's run would obliterate my 1 item run, time-wise. *The additional category used in my 1 item run. *I requested that it not obsolete Arc's run. (I don't know if this was a factor) *I think there was a common concensus among the community that it not obsolete Arc's run, based on the above reasons. *Bisqwit has the final call. ^^
If for honesty, you want apologies, I don't sympathize.
Posted: 12/15/2004 9:06 AM
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-ziplock-
Former player
Joined: 9/26/2004
Posts: 217
I shouldn't have cited this specific example. It was more rhetorical than anything else. This example would be perfect if Arc's video wouldn't be faster with restarting. Then, we'd have 2 completely different routes, one faster without restarting and one faster with. I would wonder which people would think is better or how it would be judged at all.
Posted: 12/15/2004 11:03 PM
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Zoizite
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Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 146
Location: Dirty South, USA.
Probably whichever is faster in the end, regardless of whether it used a reset or not. Speed is speed. If there were two movies, and one used a reset, but was only a few seconds faster, I would go for that one(unless it didnt' look as good as the other one).
If for honesty, you want apologies, I don't sympathize.
Posted: 1/1/2005 3:30 AM
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Makou
Joined: 4/11/2004
Posts: 104
This is the only thing that's ever bothered me about the way things are done on this site. I realize Bisquit makes the final call on everything... but his decisions sometimes contradict earlier ones. This question about the Metroid videos is probably the best example of it. Please note that I mean no disrespect to anybody in this. You are all far better at creating tool-assisted runs than I will ever be. Zoizite's 1-item run of Metroid is 100 seconds faster than Arc's, but it did not overwrite Arc's run. I'm guessing this is because the restart sequence was used, more than Zoizite requesting that it not overwrite Phil's run. However, Phil Côté's run of The Legend of Zelda is several minutes faster than the run published previous to his -- and it overwrote the older video regardless of the restart sequence being used. I've always been a stickler for consistency. I humbly request/suggest that a firm stance be taken on this issue. In regards to the games mentioned in this post, one of two things would have to be done: 1) Have the older Legend of Zelda video be re-published until a faster, restart-less version is completed. 2) Have Zoizite's 1-item run overwrite Arc's because it is faster. Appropriate measures, of course, would also have to be applied to any other videos that would be impacted by this, should it be done. Please take this as an outsider's view and suggestions on this matter, and nothing more. I am not making demands, and will continue to visit and enjoy the videos regardless. :)
Posted: 1/1/2005 3:36 AM
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Blechy
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Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
GET OFF OUR SITE & DON'T COM BACK U TROLL Just kidding. I think the difference is that the goal the 1-item run strived for is different from simply "as-fast-as-possible"- it can be safely assumed that if Arc had used Up+A in his video, it would be faster. If his movie was replaced with Zoizite's, an entirely different path would be lost, while the same cannot be said for the Zelda run since they both strive to be simply as fast as possible. Plus, I'm pretty sure the UP+A trick was used in the prior zelda run.
Posted: 1/1/2005 3:48 AM
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Makou
Joined: 4/11/2004
Posts: 104
That first line scared me. Yikes. I'm positive that Up+A was not used in the previous Zelda run. :) If it was, then that's my mistake, and I apologize. I never considered the Minimalist vs. Just-as-fast-as-possible thing. If that's the reason for Zoizite's run not overwriting Arc's, then I have a different request/suggestion -- add "As minimalist as possible" to the available discriptions, since the fastest runs don't always gather the fewest items needed to complete a game quickly, and they are sometimes (quite often) entirely different goals.
Posted: 1/1/2005 3:50 AM
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Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
I'm positive that Up+A was not used in the previous Zelda run.
you're probably thinking of Michael Fried's run, which wasn't the previous run.
Posted: 1/1/2005 3:53 AM
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Makou
Joined: 4/11/2004
Posts: 104
Yes, I am. I didn't realize there was a video published between that and the current one. As I said, I apologize for my error.
Posted: 1/1/2005 3:56 AM
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Blechy
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Huh, I always figured that there was a "Minimalist" category but you're right, there isn't. As an editor, I'm not sure how to add it. If someone knows how to do it, then add it and I or one of the other editors will update the movies that meet the requirement.
Posted: 1/1/2005 3:19 PM
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Unknown_User
Joined: 1/1/2022
Posts: 1716
If I recall correctly, it was allowed in Zelda because that trick was described in the game manual as an actual control. The Metroid manual says nothing about that. http://www.world-of-nintendo.com/manuals/nes.shtml
Posted: 1/1/2005 8:21 PM
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Blechy
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
This discussoin was held in another thread, and it was concluded that it didn't matter. bobwhoops made the point which changed my mind, saying that all the other glitches we use to save time aren't in the manual either.
Posted: 1/2/2005 12:04 AM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
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Arcade TAS of 2023 Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021
But there's a difference between a glitch that we find and abuse, and something deliberately coded in, but still hidden. Like level select cheats and give me all the weapons cheats. Or maybe passwords.
Posted: 1/18/2005 8:06 PM
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shad0wzer0
Joined: 1/18/2005
Posts: 16
I personally think that it doesnt matter if resets are used, as long as the videos themself look good. If someone uses a restart for an advantage, and it is done well and makes you go "wow" , its fine to use, as long as its included with the game, resetting the ROM using the emulator shouldn't be allowed though.
.... wow.