Criteria:
― Special stars are movies that are particularly impressing, and worth being presentational material for this site.
[...]
― The general rule is, anything listed in this category – special stars – should be worth watching for most of the audience, new and old alike.
Specific selections can be suggested too.
Baxter wrote:
- State some general guidelines [...]
So is that what you had in mind, or were you looking for something a bit more specific? If more specificitynessishdahddjfd is needed, then I'm guessing you have something in mind, and should share it :)
Otherwise, why don't you give an example of a Star movie and it's motivation (I don't like your word choice). In the end, the motivation should be on the site rather than the forum. Hmm or both, with a sticky topic in General (or published movies) where the first post is screenshot + movie name etc of all currently starred movies and their motivations.
Also I'm assuming Baxter is The Chosen One, which perhaps I shouldn't be.
This seems a terrible idea. If I wanted to find out Baxter - or anyone else's - favourite movies, I seem to remember there being a way to look at previous ratings or nominated favourites already.
I propose that instead, these 25 (or whatever) starred movies are intended to show the breadth of possible techniques, each showing a unique style of TAS and being there for a separate reason. Not just showing someone's favourites but als showing, "this is what is possible! This is all we have done!."
The starred movies to my mind should:
- be entertaining
- show something impossible without TA.
just like Bisqwit previously said. But also
- as a group, show the full diversity of possible techniques/styles.
I think striving for that last point would help it stop being simply another 'best of' list and become something more - a list of pretty much 'essential viewing'.
I'm just some random guy. Don't let my words get you riled - I have my opinions but they're only mine.
I'm acting lazy so I went ahead and granted Baxter the access to promote and demote movies as special stars. In addition, admins such as Adelikat and DeHackEd have this privilege and have had that for a long time already.
(This doesn't mean I want him to be a dictator with regards to the starred movie question; he should still listen to the opinions of people :P)
adelikat wrote:
The top 5% (as decided by Baxter)
This seems a terrible idea. If I wanted to find out Baxter - or anyone else's - favourite movies, I seem to remember there being a way to look at previous ratings or nominated favourites already.
I propose that instead, these 25 (or whatever) starred movies are intended to show the breadth of possible techniques, each showing a unique style of TAS and being there for a separate reason. Not just showing someone's favourites but als showing, "this is what is possible! This is all we have done!."
As decided by Baxter does not mean "Baxters favorites". It will be the movies that he, with help of the opinion of others (I hope), deem to fill the requirements for a star movie the best.
Also I agree that Baxter is a good pick to be in charge of the stars.
I'm acting lazy so I went ahead and granted Baxter the access to promote and demote movies as special stars. In addition, admins such as Adelikat and DeHackEd have this privilege and have had that for a long time already.
Great :)
AKA wrote:
Not that I object to it, but does this mean a 1/3 of the list will contain Mega Man games?
Bezman wrote:
If I wanted to find out Baxter - or anyone else's
Bisqwit wrote:
(This doesn't mean I want him to be a dictator with regards to the starred movie question; he should still listen to the opinions of people :P)
Adelikat wrote:
I think Baxter is capable of a bit more objectivity than that.
Yeah, I think so too. It's supposed to be list generated by arguments from the community, keeping in mind things as variety and such.
Adelikat wrote:
Also, if we have put a limit to the number of stars, I think it should be a percentage of the total published movies, say 5%. The total publications is around 500 at the moment, so that would give us about 25 stars to work with.
Yeah, I agree with the percentage of the total published movies idea. Generally, if one star is added, that means another star has to be removed to avoid inflation. I'll mention some of this in the general guidelines.
Jimsfriend wrote:
Baxter wrote:
- State some general guidelines
So is that what you had in mind, or were you looking for something a bit more specific? If more specificitynessishdahddjfd is needed, then I'm guessing you have something in mind, and should share it :)
I'll post them as soon as I know them. Like I said, they are just general, and don't by definition include or exclude any particular runs for having a star. They aren't definitive or anything, I'm very open to suggestions and ideas.
Jimsfriend wrote:
why don't you give an example of a Star movie and it's motivation
Will post some shortly, although I do hope others will join in, as it should be some general arguments, and not specifically my arguments.
Jimsfriend wrote:
motivation (I don't like your word choice)
I don't either as a matter of fact. I just meant a list why movie X has a star. Call them reasons, arguments or whatever.
Generally, if one star is added, that means another star has to be removed to avoid inflation. I'll mention some of this in the general guidelines.
I greatly despise the idea of "one movie gains, one movie loses".
It would be a better idea to just be a bit more strict with giving them out in the first place, although I hope that this doesn't turn into another "99% of starred movies are from the same X series" disaster.
Generally, if one star is added, that means another star has to be removed to avoid inflation. I'll mention some of this in the general guidelines.
I greatly despise the idea of "one movie gains, one movie loses".
It would be a better idea to just be a bit more strict with giving them out in the first place, although I hope that this doesn't turn into another "99% of starred movies are from the same X series" disaster.
Well, I also don't really like the idea. I posted this before:
Baxter wrote:
Derakon wrote:
Well, it's pretty clear that there should be a maximum, to avoid dilution of what a star "means". Obviously there's no point if every movie gets starred (or, less extreme, if every good movie gets starred; then it just becomes a marker of what movies one person thinks are worth watching, and we have other better ways to do that). I don't think we need to set in stone what the maximum is, though. If whoever gets appointed is handing out too many, there's plenty of ways to deal with it.
I think we agree here, just phrased it differently. I meant that I don't think that it should be restricted to a certain number as in "now no star can be added before another one is removed". Of course the number of stars shouldn't get too big, or the entire concept is lost.
However, the fact is that the community might want changes in the list, and provide good arguments for it, or good arguments for a certain movie to lose its star. This is especially the case when a new movie is published, which might be extremely well suited for a star.
We can't only add stars, and never remove any... that would change the very meaning of a star (if half of the TASes have a star, the stars will mean something quite different than if, say, 5% of the TASes have a star).
I don't know what you mean by "being more strict in the first place". You cannot know what TASes are submitted in the future, or what new ideas or arguments are presented later on. And as I said, stars will only be assigned if there are some good arguments for it.
While I somewhat also dislike it essentially, in the end, it will amount to "one movie must go for another one to be added", I don't see any way around it... although I'm happy to hear suggestions.
I also don't quite see a problem with a movie losing its star... it's not like stars were never changed before.
In that case, I would like to bring up the idea of making movies starred only one month after their publication, so that other movies can enjoy whatever spot will be revoked while the run in question merrily sits on the "Newest movies" list.
(With one month being a random time frame)
In that case, I would like to bring up the idea of making movies starred only one month after their publication, so that other movies can enjoy whatever spot will be revoked while the run in question merrily sits on the "Newest movies" list.
Well, if it actually has to be decided that another run has to lose its star because of the new star, than some time discussing that will go by anyway.
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Here is a suggestion for some general guidelines for stars. They shouldn't be taken too literally in most cases. Every star will have its own individual reasons for its star. It might give a better idea what a star is. (They are actually quite similar to Bisqwit's previous guidelines.)
General guidelines for stars:
- The TAS should display a level of playing skill which clearly isn't normal. It should be apparent that the run is tool-assisted the entire run.
- The TAS should keep its pace throughout the run.
- The TAS should be attractive to both people who are familiar with the game, as well as people who are not.
- The star list should provide have variety. This does not mean that multiple TASes from the same series, or even multiple TASes from the same game are excluded per definition. It also doesn't mean that every aspect of TASing has to have a starred run that explicitly features this aspect.
- The TAS should be audiovisually attractive.
- There are a limited number of stars. If the number of stars increases, then their value decreases. One should keep in mind that if you suggest a TAS to get a star, it will come down to another TAS losing its star. This means that the discussion about which TASes should get a star becomes nearly as important as which TASes should lose their star.
Suggestions or comments are very welcome.
I apologize in advance for the wall of text that this post will surely be.
I thought I'd throw out my thoughts on movies that would make good star runs. I understand the importance of having a small list, so I narrowed the movies on the site down to fifteen. here they are. By the way, 15 was an arbitrary number. I'm not suggesting that there should be fifteen stars. Maybe there should be more maybe less.
Reasons why I chose these runs:
Battle of Olympus: This is just an amazing run all the way through. It glitches out the game in a good way that's easy to understand and moves fast the entire time. The olive collecting section is a thing of beauty.
Castlevania: I thought Castlevania didn't have much to offer for a TAS until I saw this run. It's amazing how many points you can get while still beating the game as fast as possible, and the boomerang glitch on the mummies as well as the damage glitch for bosses are surprising.
Gradius: This run proved that shooters could have a place on the site. It is still the best shooter run we have. It also set the standard for runs that have entertainment as a goal over time. Spelling out words with the options, going through walls taking unnecessary risks, ignoring bosses, and ending the movie early add to the amazingness of this run.
Legend of Zelda 2 'glitched': This run is confusing in a good way. Even if you don't know the game watching the background fly by just has an aesthetic appeal.
Megaman 2: My favorite Megaman run on the site. Megaman dies enough times to give Battletoads '2 player' a run for it's money (though nothing will ever beat Battletoads in terms of sheer number of deaths) it's the right mix of zipping and actual gameplay.
Megaman: It is truly amazing how broken a game can be. The magnet beam manipulation is very impressive.
Super Mario Brothers 3: Really it's just fun to watch, and even though it stops short of 99 lives, the autoscrolling levels are still fun.
Super Bomberman 2: This run plays the game in a way you wouldn't expect. The explosions everywhere as well as the escalation of mayhem as Bomberman's abilities get more buffed are just crazy.
Super Mario World: The devotion to entertainment as well as speed is admirable in this run. Also, it's one of the few runs that plays the music in the input right, that is as if the input were a light up keyboard. Mister obviously is able to follow the shape of a melody. Even without the input there are many things done to keep the audience entertained.
Gunstar Heroes: The amount of antics that go on between the two gunners as well as the playing around with the flame chaser are the reasons I chose this run. Plus I'm rather proud of it. (Yeah, I'm biased, but it seems there are people who will back me up on this.)
Sonic 3 and Knuckles: Fast paced action as well as glitching. Some say there's too much glitching. I say there's enough actual gameplay to keep me entertained.
Sonic: My favorite Sonic run on the site. There is not a dull moment in the run. It also has some of my favorite moments: bouncing to the end of the level in Green Hills 3, and almost drowning in Labyrinth 3. Almost drowning is hnds down my one favorite moment on the entire site. If someone finds a way to skip the underwater portion of Labyrinth 3, I will cry.
Harmony of Dissonance: What was already a great run just got tons better with this improvement. I was laughing the entire time I watched this.
Metroid Zero Mission '100 percent': Again the escalation of mayhem is there. By the end of the run Samus is just plowing through everything, but even the voyage to the end is incredibly entertaining just because of how the items are got (and some boss battles)
Sonic Advance 2: It's fast and incredibly well done.
If I had to pick twenty five, I would add
Battletoads '2 player warpless'
Excitebike
Ninja Gaiden 2
Tetris 'fast 999999' (or however many 9's there are)
Biker Mice From Mars
Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Super Mario World 'small only'
Super Metroid (either 'real time' or 'in game time' which one should be up is another debate entirely)
Comix Zone
Legend of Zelda: Links Awakening DX (the longer one)
By the way, just to promote more discussion, here are the 34 movies I considered after making the first cut.
Now here are some explanations for why I didn't choose certain movies that you might have expected to see.
Sonic the Hedgehog 2: Oil Zone. I know it's faster, but spending the entire time going under the level isn't fun to watch, and unlike the other glitches in the Sonic games, it doesn't involve scenery zooming by either. Also, I just think the other two Genesis Sonic runs are better.
Super Mario 64: if sixteen stars were still a catergory, I would be all over this. However, as it stands, the 0 star movie doesn't have much to watch, while the 120 star movie has a few stars that bog the run down a bit, such as most of them in the rainbow road (no fault to FODA). We'll see how I feel after the new 120 star run or 70 star long backward jump-less run comes out. It's a good game. I just don't think the runs we have now show it off enough.
Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask: While these runs are quite impressive, I just can't sit through them. The slow text doesn't help matters, either.
King's Bounty: While I enjoy this run as well as showing it to the uninitiated, I think it might be too short and more confusing than actually fun to watch. Same goes for Harmony of Dissonance 'maxim' run.
Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island: As someone who is unfamiliar with the game I don't find it that impressive. I'm sure that there are many tricks in the run that warrant the star, but I can't see them. Since this needs to be runs that are entertaining to both the familiar and unfamiliar, this run doesn't qualify.
Anyway, hope this helps you, Baxter, or at least gets discussion started.
Anyway, hope this helps you, Baxter, or at least gets discussion started.
Yes, very much appreciated. Complete lists are especially helpful considering they basically also suggest which stars to remove.
I'll make a post here also to get the discussion started, basically questioning the current stars. These are not my suggestions/opinions (in some cases, I had a hard time thinking of some argument, or just disagree with the argument I provided), I just post them to get some discussion, and to get some arguments possibly in favor of the current stars.
First of all, most stars are of the popular franchises. Are these really more suitable for TASing, or is this just our familiarity with these games that affects our judgement? Can a game being well known be a reason counted as something positive, and a possible reason for giving it a star, or is this something which counts negative?
SMB3
Currently the any% run has a star. This is the current version of Morimoto's famous movie, and has a lot of history. It is however filled with autoscrollers, and doesn't provide anything noteworthy which is not in the "no warps" run. While the no warps run is a lot longer, it keeps up the pace, and is entertaining throughout the run. Shouldn't the any% star be transferred to the "no warps" run? (Note that options like "give neither a star" or "give both a star" are also possible.)
The three sonic stars
Sonic 2, Sonic 3 and Sonic advance 2 currently have a star. Are they really different enough? They all have a blue hedgehog moving through the stages with great speed and some occasional glitches and generally similar bossbattles. Are three stars really needed considering the total number of stars is limited? If so, why do they all deserve a star? If not, should there be one star less, or two? Why these?
The three NES megaman stars
Mega Man 1, 2 and 5 currently have stars. Similar argument here, are they different enough? All games have the same formula, and each of the TASes uses a movement item to go through the stages very fast (magnet beam, 123-items, super arrow). Are they different enough and should they all have stars? If so why? If not, which one(s) not?
Super Mario 64
Currently both the 0 star run, and the 120 star run are starred. Does the 0 star run have enough gameplay left? Doesn't the 120 star run include all levels the 0 star movie also plays, and does therefore the 0 star movie really add anything? On the other hand, the 120 star run includes all stars, which means also some of the less interesting stars. Can it really keep its pace the entire run, and can people sit through it in one sitting? Should the level of optimization be taken into account when deciding between these two? Which of these (or both or none) should or shouldn't have stars, and why?
SMW
Super Mario World has two starred movie... with such a limited amount of stars, does one game really need two stars? Are the runs different enough? Wouldn't the 96 exit run show off both lots of levels like the small only run does, and show some cape action? Or maybe a Super Demo World TAS should be starred instead of these?
The two Zelda stars
Currently, "The Legend of Zelda", and "Zelda: A Link to the Past" have stars. While they are well known games, can someone who doesn't know them also enjoy the TASes? Are they fast paced enough to have stars? Is AlttP too long for this kind of run?
Excitebike
A nice and short run, but is the speed accumulation enough for the star? Is there more to it than going in a straight line to the finish? Is it the best choice for this racing game to have a star or are Biker Mice From Mars or Super Mario Kart better options?
SMW2
It's quite a long run, and besides some interesting strategies, is there something really extraordinary about this run?
SMB1
Besides some nifty tricks, is there really something special going on in the run? The non-tool-assisted run is nearly equally fast, and especially during the middle of the stages, it's hard to see what's tool-assisted about it. If this game didn't have the title "Mario" on it, would it still have a star?
SMB2(U)
There are currently 8 mario runs starred, and all three nes mario games have stars. Is this one special enough to have a star? Some impressive strategies are used, but does the casual viewer really notice them? If the game is suitable for a star, shouldn't the "no warps" run get the star? It's equally paced, and the "warps" run doesn't show anything the warpless run doesn't show.
Castlevania
With a lot of NES runs currently starred, is the NES Castlevania version really the best to be starred? Aren't for instance HoD a lot faster paced? (If you suggest for more Castlevania movies than just this one to have stars, which other stars should make room for it?)
Umihara Kawase
TASes using some kind of rope mechanics can be very impressive, especially since it's generally hard to control it with great accuracy in realtime. But is this the best TAS that uses these mechanics? What about Bionic Commando, Ninja Five-0 or Spiderman 3?
"any%" Metroid
Besides being a very well known game, does it have much going for it? It has some major skips, but are these particularly interesting to watch? Aren't there other Metroid runs that are a lot faster paced and more suitable for a star?
Gradius
While the very fast movement might be a pleasant surprise at first, is it entertaining throughout the run? There is only so much you can do, and doesn't the circling become repetative very fast? Aren't there runs with very fast movie characters that show more variety or strategies?
Mega Man X & X2
While it shows off a very interesting concept, the question is, is it really entertaining to watch? Does it feel like watching one perfected run, or just two imperfect ones?
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So like I said, these aren't my opinions or ideas... they are just some statements to stirr up discussion, and hopefully it will produce some good arguments in favor, or against these currently starred movies. It would also be good to see some possible star lists, like arkiandruski's, and some suggestions for the star guidelines (which I posted above this post) would also be nice.
- The star list should provide have variety. This does not mean that multiple TASes from the same series, or even multiple TASes from the same game are excluded per definition. It also doesn't mean that every aspect of TASing has to have a starred run that explicitly features this aspect.
If no runs featuring that technique are specially entertaining, then fair enough. Give none a run. But conversely, given 2 runs for judgement and miniscule or arguable difference in quality/entertainment value, I feel that one that features a technique not already featured in the starred runs should be given preference.
arkiandruski wrote:
Super Mario 64: the 0 star movie doesn't have much to watch, w
Baxter wrote:
Super Mario 64
Currently both the 0 star run, and the 120 star run are starred. Does the 0 star run have enough gameplay left?
I don't really understand this sentiment. It's short, sure, but action-packed from start to finish. From the moment the game starts, incredible tricks are pulled off that I never thought possible. Ricocheting through the levels, the entire movie beggars belief.
The only part that could be argued as being dull is the ending - something most will skip if they have already seen it.
If 2 runs are equally entertaining, I'd rather watch the shorter one. In this case, the bewildering aspects of this and King's Bounty actually make them more memorable and entertaining, I feel, than stuff like the Sonic games.
It probably goes without saying, but I felt Sonic was over-represented. I maybe need to refresh my memory regarding them, but the fact that I can't remember that much of their distinguishing features, despite having seen them all once or twice, whilst King's Bounty and mario 64 0-stars will never fade from my mind speaks volumes to me.
I'm just some random guy. Don't let my words get you riled - I have my opinions but they're only mine.
Excitebike: I do feel this run keeps up its pace well. It's not just an accumulation of speed -- it's the insane jumps that the player performs, and particularly the way the biker's vertical position wraps around to zero again!
While I feel that Super Mario Kart and Biker Mice from Mars are both very well-done, the latter has camera issues (much of the time you can't see what's going on) and the former extensively abuses a glitch I don't find very entertaining (driving in small circles to complete laps) -- and when it doesn't use that glitch, most of the laps are the same.
Personally, I think that Excitebike just strikes the right balance between novelty and length, which means it "keeps up the pace" better than the runs you compared it against do.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Here's where I agree with your arguments against.
Large franchises are definitely over represented. If we are going for variety, we should definitely prune from these. In the Mario franchise, I would suggest cutting SMB1, SMB2 and SMW2, as well as picking one of the SM64 runs (or both). This leaves either three or two runs for Mario. For Megaman, I would drop 5. If we only wanted 1, I would keep 2. (if we only wanted 1 Mario game, I would keep SMW) For Sonic, if we wanted two, I would keep the original and S3&K. If just one, I would keep just the original Sonic the Hedgehog because it's the right lenghth and also has the best balance of gameplay to zipping.
Long runs should be approached with caution. However, I don't think we need to completely avoid considering runs just because they're long. I found Link to the Past interesting, although I prefer Link's Awakening for being slightly faster paced.
I also agree Metroid any% should be dropped. Metroid isn't a very entertaining game. It's slow paced and has limitted sound effects. Super Metroid is much better, though my favorite Metroid run right now is probably Zero Mission 100 percent. The door glitch, which happens multiple times during the run is not fun to watch. Samus climbing up the wall on a static screen. Fast forward.
While I think grappling mechanics are great, Umiharea Kawase only has limitted entertainment value. For the record, I'm not sure if Bionic Commando or Ninja 5-0 are good replacements either. Bionic commando doesn't swing that much, preferring instead to go for quick successive hits. I've not really been able to get into Ninja 5-0. I will say if we absolutely have to have a grapple run (which honestly, we don't) I would choose Umihara over the other two.
Now where I disagree with you.
For Super Mario World, I would take Mister's run first followed by small only. 96 exit is boring to me because all the runner does is fly over every single level. He doesn't interact with the environment or get past obstacles in unexpected ways. He just bypasses everything. It's decent in small doses, but not for over an hour.
Excitebike does have things besides going across the level fast, there's running over the opponents, which provides a small chuckle also wrapping around past zero and coming out of the ground, like Derakon said.
I'd keep Castlevania for the sheer fact that he kills so much while not slowing down. Considering the mechanics of the game, that's quite impressive. Harmony of Dissonance can join too. However, if we only want one Castlevania run I would go for Harmony of Dissonance.
Of the 34 movies I chose to consider, Gradius was the only one I marked after watching as absolutely having to be on the list. Considering some of the movies it's going up against, this puts the run in rather high regard for me. Don't drop Gradius. It's a work of art.
How limitted do you think we are going to make the movies, like around what number? This would help me in making arguments as well.
Once again, they were just some general provocative statements, (some which I heard of others, some I might hold myself... but some are also just made up, just to have a critical comment at each star, so I don't necessarily agree with them).
Either way, I was interested in which ones were agreed with, and which ones weren't so thx :), I hope more comments are coming.
arkiandruski wrote:
How limitted do you think we are going to make the movies, like around what number? This would help me in making arguments as well.
I was thinking about keeping about the current number, plus or minus ~2 max. I think it's good to set course for the same number as we currently have, and should there be some choices too hard to make or agree on, then we could always add 1... but for now, lets aim for the same number as currently.
Quick question:
What is the point of the star list?
I don't know about the rest of you, but the TASes I find most entertaining are the games I played ad naseum as a a kid.
Thus, if the purpose is to generate website interest, then it is best suited by the list being populated by popular games.
However, if it is to get people interested by watching TASes that they wouldn't have watched otherwise, it isn't served well by having all games that are best of the console in the list. No one from the super Nintendo generation really needs to be suggested to watch Super Mario World. Likewise, no one from the Nintendo generation needs to be suggested to watch Super Mario 3.
You wouldn't suggest to a football fan: "Hey, heard of the super bowl? You might want to check that out!"
So what's the goal?
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Quick question:
What is the point of the star list?
I don't know about the rest of you, but the TASes I find most entertaining are the games I played ad naseum as a a kid.
Thus, if the purpose is to generate website interest, then it is best suited by the list being populated by popular games.
However, if it is to get people interested by watching TASes that they wouldn't have watched otherwise, it isn't served well by having all games that are best of the console in the list. No one from the super Nintendo generation really needs to be suggested to watch Super Mario World. Likewise, no one from the Nintendo generation needs to be suggested to watch Super Mario 3.
You wouldn't suggest to a football fan: "Hey, heard of the super bowl? You might want to check that out!"
So what's the goal?
I hope the guidelines make that somewhat clear. I posted some initial thoughts about this here, but I agree that this doesn't answer your question very well. Therefore I hope there will also be some suggestions made for guidelines, and if we end up agreeing on some kind of answer to your question, it might be good to work it into the guidelines somehow. I'm not satisfied with either the formulation, or the specifics of the guidelines, so input is welcome.
SMB3
Currently the any% run has a star. This is the current version of Morimoto's famous movie, and has a lot of history.
Perhaps for that reason alone this run should stay starred.
Baxter wrote:
Super Mario 64
Currently both the 0 star run, and the 120 star run are starred.
I think the 0 Star run should stay starred because of the simple fact that it beats the game without any regard for what one would normally have to do to complete the game. It may be becoming old for us because we've seen it so many times, but for a newcomer I think it would be a phenomenal sight. The current 120 star run is becoming dated. I think the next production of the 120 star run will definitely be worthy of a star. The current one is questionable.
Baxter wrote:
SMW
Super Mario World has two starred movie
The awesomeness of the small only run came from watching the authors juggle 2-3 items at once in order to accomplish impossible feats to get to the exit. I found about 80% of this run to be quite entertaining, which is pretty good for the length. The regular run is pretty good as well. I don't think a hack should get a star though.
Baxter wrote:
The two Zelda stars
Currently, "The Legend of Zelda", and "Zelda: A Link to the Past" have stars. Is AlttP too long for this kind of run?
After Tompa is done with LttP, it will be more than worthy of a star in my opinion. Every 10 minutes WIP is like Christmas. NES Zelda is more interesting to me than SMB1 running in a straight line personally. I don't know that the game itself is in the league of these other runs, but it is quite good.
Baxter wrote:
Excitebike
Is it the best choice for this racing game to have a star or are Biker Mice From Mars or Super Mario Kart better options?
Excitebike is short, quick, and broken. Super Mario Kart is somewhat slow paced and repetitive. I'll admit there are moments that are awesome, but there's a lot of load times and a lot of strategies repeated on a lap per lap basis.
Baxter wrote:
SMW2
It's quite a long run, and besides some interesting strategies, is there something really extraordinary about this run?
While the run is done very well from a technical aspect, most people can't see anything but running in a straight line messing around. Also, to my knowledge, not that many people have actually played this game as compared to other Mario runs.
Baxter wrote:
Mega Man X & X2
While it shows off a very interesting concept, the question is, is it really entertaining to watch?
I think this run is very good material because it shows off a unique aspect of TASing. Another duo game run may be better suited for this, but this is probably the best run we have for now. (See my previous post about Megaman 3-6 Quad.)
I hope the guidelines make that somewhat clear. I posted some initial thoughts about this here, but I agree that this doesn't answer your question very well. Therefore I hope there will also be some suggestions made for guidelines, and if we end up agreeing on some kind of answer to your question, it might be good to work it into the guidelines somehow. I'm not satisfied with either the formulation, or the specifics of the guidelines, so input is welcome.
Don't take offense to this, but it seems like you are putting the cart before the horse. The guidelines should come from the purpose, not the purpose from the guidelines.
I am actually more at a loss for what the purpose of star'd runs are for now.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
OK, since star policy has been established I'll suggest some movies
Ninja Five-0: I've watched both Ninja Five and Spiderman movies in short succession and I personally favour this game. Reasons are, The levels are a bit more diverse and take a little longer to beat and the game has smoother animation and lags less. I think this would make a good replacement to the Umihara Kawase run.
Legend of Zelda - Link's Awakening DX: Namely the full run, audiovisually it's very good to watch. Contains lots of neats tricks, glitches as well as inovative puzzles, items and easter eggs. Plus GBC runs are starved of recieving any stars.
Legend of Zelda - Majora's Mask: A huge diversity of tricks and knowledge is displayed, while people complain about the cutscenes, there actually done in a very visual way rather than bland text from a typical old school RPG. Run also shows complex route planning.
"0 stars" Super Mario 64: This run is as important to the sites history as the orginal SMB3 run. A lot of complex action is crammed into a short space of time, with none of it being replicatable on a console. This run is a prime example of a TAS.
Castlevania: Very good demonstration of how damage boosting can be used to show creative shortcuts, it also shows how well thought out weapon choices, manipulation as well as trying to obtain a high score are.
Darkwing Duck: Yet another prime example of what a TAS is. Shows insane luck manipulation, accurate movements and hopping simalar to the SMW run. It also has a clever touch of using the hopping to dance to the music.
Gimmick! : Shows how the stars can be used creatively as platforms to perform shortcuts and to use them as a skateboard. Also uses slopes and continous hopping to gain speed, excellent example of effective a run can be when memory addresses are used.
Excitebike: Already been mentioned why. I think MK64 might overtake this when it's eventually finished.
Legend of Zelda: Great example of luck manipulation and health management
Mega Man: Spectacularly well broken game, abuses the games to the limits that would surprise even knowledgable unassisted speed runners.
Super Mario Bros 3: The back bone of this site, I disagree with Baxter in relation to potentially starring the other category, especially when the the short run has higher ratings in both categories. Plus many other levels in the warpless run can be completed by reving up the P-meter unopposed at the start of the level, then just holding right and jumping at the correct times, all of which are impossible to do on any of the levels in the current starred run. Also the warpless run does not show how loads of 1ups can be obtained in the first autoscroller in world 8.
Gunstar Heroes: Lots of carnage,action, amazing boss battles and clever use of 2 players.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles: Already been mentioned earlier
Sonic The Hedgehog 2: Sonic 1 is potentially worth starring given the empahsis on maintaining speed, but this run shows methods which still take me by surprise every time I watch this.
Super Mario World: Clever use of hopping to maintain speed as well as the water levels, and tricks with the cape. Doesn't suffer from slow, relativley harmless autoscrollers.
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SMB3
Both the any% and no warps run are entertaining, so one or the other should keep a star, I don't have a preference for which.
The three sonic stars
S3&K is built to have a star, as is Sonic Advance 2. If one should be cut, it's Sonic 2.
The three NES megaman stars
One should probably go, but I don't know enough about them to make a really informed decision.
Super Mario 64
The 0 star run should definitely stay, as it is one of the best examples of the power that TASing produces. I think the 120 star run should probably be cut, but would likely be up for reinstatement once m_r_z finishes his run.
SMW
I'd propose a compromise: have one SMW run, and one SDW run. All of them are entertaining, so I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.
The two Zelda stars
OoT!!! [/sarcasm]
I think ALttP is an appropriate choice, and have no opinion on the NES version.
Excitebike
Keep it. It's fun, fast, and short, with very noticeable game-breaking glitches.
SMW2
No opinion, as I haven't watched it or played the game at all.
SMB1
This is the game I feel that should lose it's star the most. It is very close to the unassisted time, and is not very impressive unless you understand the underlying mechanics of the game engine.
SMB2(U)
I never liked this game, so any recommendation would be biased.
Castlevania
I agree, at least one of the GBA Castlevania runs should be starred, since there's a plethora of them to choose from. Probably at the expense of the NES one.
Umihara Kawase
Spiderman 3? :D
"any%" Metroid
There aren't any other Metroid runs that are more well suited for a star, but I'd argue for either the in-game timer or real-time Super Metroid run should get a star. However, I don't think the NES metroid should lose it's star, it has some of the more entertaining glitches I've seen in an NES game, and its length is perfect.
Gradius
Keep it, it's good.
Mega Man X & X2
I think the fact that it does show off an interesting concept, while still being entertaining, is one of the reasons that this one should keep its star, although I know a lot of people will disagree with me.
Overall, the only runs that I don't think deserve stars are Umihara Kawase and SMB1. All the others are of good quality and entertainment, but I would like to see a few new movies on the list to broaden the scope of the stars some.
First of all, most stars are of the popular franchises. Are these really more suitable for TASing, or is this just our familiarity with these games that affects our judgement? Can a game being well known be a reason counted as something positive, and a possible reason for giving it a star, or is this something which counts negative?
I think I can answer the last question. A game being well known can be positive for a star if it is one of the large nominees in a certain category as more stars will be allocated in that category and people will firstly consider which not to give a star to, while negative if it has very few but matched star competitors in the certain category as less stars will be allocated there and people will firstly consider which not to give a star to.
The three Sonic stars
The fact: I haven't watched Sonic 2 yet.
Sonic Advance 2 actually shows the gameplay. Sonic 3 is ballanced and preferred (by me).
The three NES Megaman stars
I can't tell which one is more suited, Mega Man 1 or 2. But I think Mega Man 5 can be dropped because this time we consider which one to be dropped in the first place, and I believe there can be other not-so-well-unknown games can be the more suited nominees.
However, I think "100% CD" Rockman & Forte for SNES shows more and better zipping than either Mega Man 1 or 2.
Super Mario 64
The 0 star run:
Bezman wrote:
It's short, sure, but action-packed from start to finish. From the moment the game starts, incredible tricks are pulled off that I never thought possible. Ricocheting through the levels, the entire movie beggars belief.
I agree to this statement.
The 120 star run just shows less TAS-ness and should be improved. However, the star can be kept.
SMW
If only one star can be given, just make it to the shortest one.
SMW2
IIRC, I've watched it long, long before, while I can't recall anything remarkable in it. No more comments at the moment.
SMB1
Unfortunately, it seems that I have to refrain from making comments on it. :(
SMB2(U)
I refrain again. I could be biased as I disliked the gameplay changes from the original. :(
SMB3
The autoscrollers just weight too much to stay entertaining in the warped run. The "no-warp" run can be OK.
The two Zelda stars
They can be top games to play, but can they also be too games to watch? I have no ideas.
AKA has a good point on LoZ, though.
Excitebike
The fact: I haven't watched Super Mario Kart.
A nice and short run, with a game-breaking glitch noticable to anyone who has ever played the game once. Biker Mice From Mars suffers from the camera problem, but it shows better TAS-ness. I can't tell which one is more suited for a star (if only one can be given to).
Castlevania
I like watching the movie. "Almost all aspects of TAS power are shown in this movie" sounds great for it to keep its star.
Again, it seems that I have to refrain from making comments on the GBA ones due to possible bias. :(
Umihara Kawase
The "sight-seeing" movie is too long. The short one is OK, because this game features really good physics, and the movie utilizes it very well, although it isn't more entertaining than "Channel X" Rockin' Kats in my opinion.
What about Bionic Commando, Ninja Five-0 or Spiderman 3? This is hard to tell.
"any%" MetroidBaxter wrote:
Besides being a very well known game, does it have much going for it? It has some major skips, but are these particularly interesting to watch? Aren't there other Metroid runs that are a lot faster paced and more suitable for a star?
EDIT: I keep this question as-is.
Gradius
We need to show this aspect of TAS. So just keep the star there.
Mega Man X & X2
We need to show this aspect of TAS. We don't have better movie than this as Megaman 3456 can be confusing. So just keep the star there.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Darkwing Duck: Yet another prime example of what a TAS is. Shows insane luck manipulation, accurate movements and hopping simalar to the SMW run. It also has a clever touch of using the hopping to dance to the music.
What about this as well?
"Journey to Silius: Yet another prime example of what a TAS is. Shows insane luck manipulation, accurate movements* and lag redution with bullets everywhere different from many other runs. It also has a clever touch of using the D-pad to dance to the music." [/biassed :)]
* Note: Critizen needed.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
The awesomeness of the small only run came from watching the authors juggle 2-3 items at once in order to accomplish impossible feats to get to the exit.
klmz wrote:
If only one star can be given, just make it to the shortest one.
I feel like if it's going to be one star, there are gonna be debates no matter which one it's gonna be :P
klmz wrote:
AKA wrote:
Darkwing Duck: Yet another prime example of what a TAS is. Shows insane luck manipulation, accurate movements and hopping simalar to the SMW run. It also has a clever touch of using the hopping to dance to the music.
What about this as well?
"Journey to Silius: Yet another prime example of what a TAS is. Shows insane luck manipulation, accurate movements* and lag redution with bullets everywhere different from many other runs. It also has a clever touch of using the D-pad to dance to the music." [/biassed :)]
Well, if some stars from the current list are gonna be removed, that opens up some spots, so suggestions for/like these are very welcome. It is also useful to consider a bit which of these are somewhat in the same category, for variety purposes.
arkiandruski wrote:
For Megaman, I would drop 5.
klmz wrote:
But I think Mega Man 5 can be dropped because this time we consider which one to be dropped in the first place
Not particularly trying to defend Mega Man 5 (don't mean to be biased) but I thought I'd bring this point up: If there would be two NES megaman TASes with stars, then aren't megaman 1 and 2 too similar? They both have no sliding, and no fast horizontal movement besides zipping through ceilings, while megaman 5 does have sliding and quite a different way of moving forward in a fast way.
AKA wrote:
Legend of Zelda - Majora's Mask: A huge diversity of tricks and knowledge is displayed, while people complain about the cutscenes, there actually done in a very visual way rather than bland text from a typical old school RPG. Run also shows complex route planning.
Any more opinions on this suggestion? Any other similar runs? (The currently only really 3D game in the star list is Super Mario 64)
Also, what Metroid run(s?) is/are the best suited for a star?
Same question for the Castlevania series.
Some things pretty much everyone agrees on sofar:
- SMB3 any%
- Sonic 3 and Knuckles
- Excitebike
- At least 1 SMW run
