The major problem that I overlooked is that the witches bottle is needed far earlier than I thought initially. So it won't work.
Maybe at some point somebody can make somethign of it. It yould certainly be nice to have in a run.
Why did nintendo have to put those spit-things in the direction of the Deku palace? It doesn't make any sense in a normal game run.
Sorry that I compiled a long post of rubbish, but when I was writing it I was sure it would work.
Oh well. I hope at least my timing the length of the cutscenes was of some help...
Ah, yes, the hookshot. I knew there was a reason I'd completely discounted the wrong warp to Deku Palace, but I couldn't quite remember it.
Anyways, if you'll check out the 100% run I posted a few pages back, it uses the wrong warp to the Deku Palace.
Cutscene length timing was very useful. We now know that being in the field when the tower strikes 12 is a serious time loss.
On a different note, for your viewing pleasure...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7xIiMO6ZcE
Ah, yes, the hookshot. I knew there was a reason I'd completely discounted the wrong warp to Deku Palace, but I couldn't quite remember it.
I thought about it a little more. There is a way to fix it but it probably wouldn't save time. I think it would come out about even. Though you have more expirience and I would like to hear what you think.
2nd cycle:
- play the song of time in the wind (or whatever it's called in english :D ) to advance to the evening of the 1st day
- activate owl, get chus and bombbag
- go to the bay, get the Zora mask, activate owl at the institute, activate owl at the Zoras and glitch-warp from bay gossip to the deku palace
- do the palace, get the song, make your way to woodfall get the warpsong on the way
- Do woodfall #1
- warp to CT, stock up on chus
- make your way to Romani Ranch, activate the owl on the milkyway
- get the bottle
- warp back to the milkyway
- make your way to the nearest genereic cave and glitch-warp to lens of truth cave
---
- get Groron mask, hookshot (egg), do snowpeak, goron racing, etc.
- do woodfall#2 and right afterwards get the witches bottle
- proceed as normal
Now the next generic pit is a little away from the milkyway. It's hidden in the gras near the entrance to the swamp. But there is a pit with 4 spiritual-stones, spiderwebs and one big spider really near by. Sadly I can't find it on the map you posted a few pages back, so I can't see if it could be used... (It is arked here http://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda06/Maps/Field.jpg as "Gossip Pit") I can say about it that is open at the top and that there is a cave on the left which exits in termina fiield, too. I haven't tried all directions yet and even if I do it could be that I miss something. (it's really annoying that you just can't see the other pits. :D )
There is also a generic pit in the bay. As the owl is activitatat you could also use this, but I doubt that it's fast than the one in teria field.
Also noteworthy is that it will take a few bombs or chus to get up to bay gossip without the hookshot.
Yet another option ofcourse would be to use the akindo pit. for the warp to the deku palace, like you did in the demonstration video. That ofcourse wouldn't put you in the perfect position in the palace, but well, you would be pretty close...
Btw. where is that Bay Heart Pit? From there to the Magic Bean Pit could be an option, too.
Also where is the Clock Town Gossip in this system?
So now I brought up 10 different options from which probably none will save any time. ^^"
Cutscene length timing was very useful. We now know that being in the field when the tower strikes 12 is a serious time loss.
Very nice. ^^
Edit:
Yeah I'm pretty sure bay gossip would just cost time in an any%. There are just to much detours involved.
Though Akindo --> Deku Palace could save a little time. You would be definatly faster at the palace and save a time travel. The way to the witches are about the same as you don't have to roll back with this way.
If you climb the wines in the cave or get it somehow so that you don't have to climb them bt land up there, you are actually at the exact position you need to be in the deku palace. screenshot: http://home.arcor.de/slowking/palace.jpg
The question is if it would be fast enough to warrant the time lost by the played song and the bigger money crunch caused by 10 more chus.
The bay gossips are close to the WCT exit. Bay heart is right next to the fence. The gossip stone pit you refer to is the "Swamp Gossips". I can only assume what you refer to as CT gossips is the Ikana gossips, near the Observatory.
I'm not wholly sure if what you suggest is necessarily faster. The direct warp to the Deku Palace is nice, of course, but the witches' bottle is just so convenient. The Ranch bottle is the only possible substitute, of course. If we wait to get the witches' bottle, we have the option of getting it after Stone Tower, which would no doubt be convenient. But then we are forced to get the Ranch bottle first. Double timing gets us to the night of the first day, of course, but where to go from there. Bay first takes too long and adds SoSes. Swamp first makes the wrong warp glitch pointless. Mountains first is feasible, but getting out would take too long without SoS. Ikana is pointless without the hookshot.
Hmmm...difficult. As nice as it would be to warp to the Deku Palace, I can't think of a way to do it that is obviously faster. Perhaps...
Double time
wrong warp to Palace, get stuff up to Woodfall 1, back to CT
wrong warp to Lens of truth cave. Goron Mask get.
Ranch (I don't think we've taken enough time)
Hookshot
Snowhead
Race
Finish woodfall
Sell Dust (again, not enough time. Double time again?)
Ikana
Witch bottle
egg stuff
GBT
end
This might work. We'll be using up 60 chus (240 rupees) and one bomb bag (50 rupees), which means we'll need to start the cycle with at least 290 rupees. Doable, of course, but will it be faster?
On another note, if we can get into the grave on the third night without the captain's hat, that might be a better bottle than the ranch
Lastly, I have determined what the final unknown grotto is. It is the Hot Spring in the frozen lake. Unfortunately, it cannot be used to warp there.
The bay gossips are close to the WCT exit. Bay heart is right next to the fence. The gossip stone pit you refer to is the "Swamp Gossips". I can only assume what you refer to as CT gossips is the Ikana gossips, near the Observatory.
What are those gossips exactly? I assumed it were the caves where the great farys are located but from what you are saying it seems that they are the pits in termia field with the spiritual stones?
If that's the case I talked a lot of nonsense up there. ^^"
In this case you could use the bay gossip. The nice thing about Akindo is that you come out at exactly the point you need to be in the palace and I think it should be possible that you only have to climb one of the two wines.
Edit: Yes you are right bay gossip is much nearer and you are pretty much at the place you need to be. If the way in the palace can be changed a little it could even be the perfect place. http://home.arcor.de/slowking/palace-route.jpg (the red dot is where you enter the palace)
If we wait to get the witches' bottle, we have the option of getting it after Stone Tower
Yeah but I would advise getting it right after woodfall#2, as you are warped to the backside of the temple after Odolwa and thus the way to it is shorter.
Edit: Ah I forgot. If you get washed down Inkana river you come out at the witches. Yes that should actually be the fastest way.
Nice thing about this. You get there even if you fall in the warp as a goron. So you could start rolling from the place you get warped to, over the river and in the river-warp.
Mountains first is feasible, but getting out would take too long without SoS.
Well since you allready went to woodfall you could just use the warpsong to warp out.
Hmmm...difficult. As nice as it would be to warp to the Deku Palace, I can't think of a way to do it that is obviously faster. Perhaps...
Double time
wrong warp to Palace, get stuff up to Woodfall 1, back to CT
wrong warp to Lens of truth cave. Goron Mask get.
Ranch (I don't think we've taken enough time)
Hookshot
Snowhead
Race
Finish woodfall
Sell Dust (again, not enough time. Double time again?)
Ikana
Witch bottle
egg stuff
GBT
end
Well with this way you are pretty flexible, so if there has to be some time to be spent before the ranch you could most certainly do it...
Though you are right you are not that flexible... You have to be at the ranch at about 3. After woodfall#1 it will be aproximatly 9:45. Let's say getting the goron mask and maybe also activating the owl at snowpeak takes 3 hours it will still only be 12:45. That IS a problem.
I suppose you could do a few things in the bay, getting the mask, activating the owls, etc. You may loose time on additional warps.
The stuff in the bay should amount to about 1:30, plus the time it takes to get there and to the ranch, you should be there at about 3. ^^
There is also the question how much time the hookshot actually saves in snowpeak. If it doesn't do much you could just do snowpeak after woodfall #1 and the goron racing right afterwards. That would also give you time to sell the gold dust.
If you bomb your way up this room http://home.arcor.de/slowking/snowpeak-spikeroom.jpg you would be exactly where you would get with the first hookshot and you wouldn't have to play a song to the scarecrow, so I guess that would even itself out. The second time the hookshot is used it is also not major. You can get there with a little goron rolling and one additional transition. I would say it cost about 5-10 seconds.
It's really tough to say if this thing would save time or not.
This might work. We'll be using up 60 chus (240 rupees) and one bomb bag (50 rupees), which means we'll need to start the cycle with at least 290 rupees. Doable, of course, but will it be faster?
Well if you do two runs through termia field in the first cycle you have 297 rupees and it doesn't take that much more time, as part of this time would otherwise just be spent waiting.
The question if it will be faster in general ofcourse still remains
On another note, if we can get into the grave on the third night without the captain's hat, that might be a better bottle than the ranch
But that would cost 2 storys of the grandmother (including getting there) and one playing of the time-advance-song. Despite the fact that there might not be enough time to finish the game in this cycle, which would cost a timetravel.
So I can't see how this would save time. I think the romani bottle remains the only option.
Lastly, I have determined what the final unknown grotto is. It is the Hot Spring in the frozen lake. Unfortunately, it cannot be used to warp there.
Well I think it wouldn't be usefull anyway. You need the Lens of Truth, so warping to the lens of truth cave is the fastest.
Edit:
I think in conclusion the route would be now:
- advance time to evening of the first day
- activate owl, get chus and bombbag
- glitch-warp from bay gossip to the Deku Palace
- get the song
- make your way to and through woodfall#1, picking up the warpsong and activating the owl on the way.
- warp to CT, pick up chus and bombs
- glitch-warp from generic pit to lens of truth cave
- get goron mask
- do snowpeak temple (without the hookshot)
- do the goron racing
- warp to CT, sell the gold dust and stock up on Chus and bombs
- make your way to the Romani Ranch for the bottle (I hope it's late enough now)
This way you also save some warping, as you do the Goron mask, the temple and the race right after each other. I hope that makes up for the time you loose through not having the hookshot.
Also now Odolwa would be after the snowpeak temple again. So you could forge the gilded sword again. On the other hand that would cause some money problems and another trip to the ECT chest would have to be made...
Hmm...could work. We'll be short on chus for Snowhead, so there'll be a lot of pure bomb hovering. Staircasing them a bit can alleviate that, but we'll need to figure out where chus are really needed. This reduces our chu count to 50, which costs 200r. Couple that with the bomb bag, and we need 250r on the first cycle. We can be short some and still be OK, but not too much.
EDIT: scratch that, I think we could get away with 210 rupees, with the 200 we get from the gold dust covering the rest. Provided we get 12r by the end of Snowhead, we could actually use the 198 rupees Swordless got in his first WIP.
The other concern is whether there's enough time to do all that. We definitely want to avoid using Inverted Time.
EDIT: It appears getting up that one room of Snowhead takes 8 hovers. That's not the greatest.
Uh 8 hovers are a lot. Maybe a short trip to clock town to stock up on chus would actually be faster (if we have the additional money)
Edit: On the other hand: You don't have to go in the store where the scarecrow is in, you don't have to play a song for the scarecrow and watch it disapear and you have little shorter way in snowpeak and don't have to summon the scarecrow there. I think you still come out about even.
Edit: Did you try it from the wood crates at the back of the room? They are higher than the platform in the middle. Could save one bomb...
Also the ledge above the spikes is actually grabable. Should save some more bombs if you grab it instead of bombing yourself all the way up.
Furthermore I seem to remeber a trick where you lay down or throw a bomb, use Links natural jump and this way are much higher then you normally would have been. Or do I recall that wrong?
Edit: Also if you enter the main tempel through that room you save yourself the cutscene, which saves another 15 seconds. ^^ The cutscene seems to only activate when you step through the door you were ment to stept through.
But I really believe now that this route would be faster than the old one.
- you skip the way to the deku palace (bay gossip is right out of WCT)
- you save one timetravel (those travels are still longer than advancing time)
- if you get the witch-bottle after inkana temple you may even save some time here
- you probably still save some teleporting around
Hmm to know if the timing is right for the romani bottle I guess someone should make a quick test run. If he's half an hour to late, it should be about right for a real run. XD
Edit: If it's still not late enough for the Romani-bottle you can even get the hookshot before, as you now have the Goron-bottle.
Edit: Main problem I see at the moment is that in mukkis run 8 chus are used to get into the goron racing. at the moment we wouldn't have those and with bombs this would cost serious time...
Maybe getting new bombchus right before snowhead isn't such a bad idea after all. It would take one more run through termia field in the first cycle, one owl-activating, two warps, one trip to the bank and bombshop.
But it would make the way through snowpeak faster and there wouldn't be a problem with getting into the goron racing.
What do you think?
Edit: Also on an unrelated note. I found this glitch in the GameFAQs glitchlist.
14.) TIME PASSES; NOBODY MOVES
Press Start many times in a row (like more than 50 times). As the game
pauses and unpauses, time passes very, very slowly, yet nobody is
allowed to move. After a while, stop unpausing and follow some
character on a schedule, like the Postman. When he's supposed to be at
a door, mailbox, whatever, he will suddenly teleport to the spot where
he should be and do his thing.
Has anybody ever tried if this would work as "time passes; no cutscene"? If time progresses but normal events are not activated that may also apply to the cutscene at midnight of the third day.
Should be fairly easy to test for somebody with the tools to TAS...
EDIT: scratch that, I think we could get away with 210 rupees, with the 200 we get from the gold dust covering the rest. Provided we get 12r by the end of Snowhead, we could actually use the 198 rupees Swordless got in his first WIP.
But this way you would never get the adault wallet. Which is a problem when you want to buy a Bombbag and two sets of Chus and when you want to get 200 for the Gold Dust. I guess getting 12r right after you get turned into a Deku would be the best course of action. Still beats a second trip through termina field or a trip to the ECT chest. You only have to get two bushes with 5r and one with 3r. The thing that will cost the most time about this is one more transaction with the banker, but well, you would have to do this anyway if you were to get another 99r.
I'm really not concerned about Snowhead being slower without the hookshot. Even if you need 8 bombs in that room, which I think can be reduced.
Let's look at it:
savings (total 102s):
- not getting the scarecrow and not summoning it (~30s) (corect me if I'm worng but you don't need the scarecrow anywhere else in the run, right?)
- loosing the cutscene in snowhead (15s)
- one warp (21s)
- one timetravel (36s)
- probably some running around, but I'm not sure
lost (total 48s):
- bombing up the spike-room (worst case) 8 * 3,5s = 28s
- rolling as a Goron instead of 2nd hookshot (worst case) 20s
So I'd say you gain about 54 seconds. Though ofcourse I could have overlooked something. But I think that would give a big enough buffer for anything uncertain.
Now let's say you need another 28 seconds to bomb yourself into the Goron racing (maybe it can be optimised a little) that still leaves a plus of 26 seconds.
Other things that are different in this run:
- getting 12r before entering clock town and depositing it: the banktransfare would have to be made anyway, as you need the adault wallet in any case and getting 12r from bushes that are right along the way beats a trip through termina field or to ECT chest by far.
- advancing time half a day: more than warrented through shorter way to the Deku Palace.
- witches bottle later: might even save time when you enter through Ikana.
- Leaves only selling the Gold dust instead of forging the gilded sword. But as I understand it you would have done this anyway in a new run.
Did I miss something?
Not getting the Scarecrow's song doesn't save time because we wouldn't get it anyways. SL found that you could hit that torch from the ground floor. This puts the route into more questionable territory.
While I don't immediately like the idea of getting rupees from the pre-CT part, as it means SL would have to start over again, it would give us an excellent opportunity to see if stories with grandma is faster than just dancing with pierre 5 times.
Argh...
On the other hand I believe there is a trip less to the bombshop on this route and no second trip through termina field or a trip to ECT chest. That also saves time. Though I could be wrong, I really don't know exactly how your currently planed route looks like...
And the spike-room really doesn't look that high to me. Did you try it from the wooden crates with grabbing the ledge above the spikes?
And I keep finding flaws in the route. >.< On the second day the shop-witch goes looking for her sister in the woods. now she is not far in, it might even be faster to get to her this way, but you have to endure a 15s cutscene...
Edit:
Btw. has it ever been tested if the beaver bottle could be faster than the romani one? I mean shooting the ghosts takes quite some time and you have to get on the ranch in time (which requires playing the dong two times) and you have to bomb your way in. The beavers aren't that far out of the way once you have the hookshot...
Didn't you make a video on how to beat them really fast?
Edit:
Ah yes I found your video. Mukki took 2:51 from entering the ranch to completing the task. But I guess that you still have to play the slow-down-song twice to get there at just the right moment? If so that ads another 30 seconds. Now let's say that Mukkis time can be iproved a little by getting there a little bit later. So let's say it takes 2:45 + 0:30 = 3:15.
Your run with the beavers on the first day comes down to about the same. So the question is where can you get faster Romani or the beavers?
Now Romani Ranch is near CT but you have to bomb yourself in and it's completely out of the way of everything else.
The beavers are sort of on the way to the Zoras but it would mean a lot of hookshooting. So I really don't know.
proposed route:
- get zora mask
- activate owl at the laboratory
- get hookshot
- warp back to the laboratory (or do something in between
- get to the beavers and get the bottle from them
- jump into the river and swim to the zoras, activate the owl there
- warp wherever you need to be
The nice thing about this is, that there are ways includet you would need to go sooner or later anyway and the warp you take you would also have to take to get away from the romani ranch. the main question that remains is if it would be faster to get to romani ranch or hookshooting yourself up to the beavers.
This would be interesting for any route...
I know this has probably been mentioned before, but I'd rather not read through 70 pages to find out.
But could the bomb mask be used for the mid-air bomb jump? It would probably save a lot of time to eliminate trips to the bomb shop and waiting for the fuse to go.
The bomb mask takes a long time to recharge after you used it. I'm pretty sure it even takes longer than a normal bomb to explode, so it probably doesn't warrant the time it takes to get it.
(But to be honest I forgot this, too, untill I played the game again recently)
Edit:
Yeah the mask takes 15 seconds, a normal bomb takes 3,5s. The mask could maybe be used on the beginning and end of a bombing to reduce the crunch and time, but it takes some time to get it and you would have to be in clock town at midnight of the first day. To 99% not worth it.
Couldn't you interleave the fuse times, though? I.e. activate mask, drop bomb, pick up bomb, hover, hover(change timings if it's faster than a bomb)? It'd be faster than strictly bombs that way- and perhaps speed up even chu hovering maybe, or save a chu should it be viable (if you can activate the bomb mask while getting set up, say)...
But is it even shield-blockable?
Yep it is shield-blockable (I allways found that funny, since it explodes in your face XD ). But it's not like you just have it. You would have to be in NCT at midnight of the first day, catch the thief, watch him run of (for somebody who has just been poked with a swords he takes an awfull lot of time) and talk to the old lady. In this time you can burn about 30 bombs and most of the hovering has allready been done by midnight of day one. (except Inkana)
If you were to do Deku Palace first (I know it's still not very clear which route is the fastest) you would have to use Goronrolling in Snowhead and end up here: http://home.arcor.de/slowking/rauskomm-goronrolling.jpg
Could you shoot the Snowball on the other side with a fire arrow and then use this http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=x7uV-P34_yc to get over there? I don't know if the jump would be far enough, but if it is it should save some time...
And for both routes:
I don't know if it's allready known, but you can glitch through here as seen here.
That should save some time after the second time you fought Zaurob as you won't have to get those 4 snowballs out of the way.
This new route talk is depressing. I'm dying to get to work on this, but oh well, I'm sure it'll be worth it in the end.
Here's an unreleased part of my old WIP, before I decided to restart. It covers most of Snowhead Temple.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoE01NAAZ2UDifferences from Mukki's run
I used a glitch to get inside of the block at the start, and thus don't have to push it. The text is unavoidable.
At the scarecrow, I use a different, faster way of targetting. This involves pulling out the item before pressing Z. It saves a LOT of time. Bloob showed me this.
At the bomb(chu) hover, I do it in one less bombchu. Since I have one to spare, I use it to blow up the first snowball, which saves a bit of time.
Rather than punching the other snowball, I pound it. This is faster than punching. And thanks to letting go of A on a certain frame, I was able to regain control much quicker after it.
At the start of the second Wizzrobe battle, I take off the Goron Mask right before the cutscene starts. This meant that he pulled it off during the cutscene, and therefore saved time as I didn't have to halt the battle to pull it off after the cutscene.
In the second Wizzrobe battle, I use a jumpslash instead of a fire arrow for the final hit. This didn't cost any time, but it saved a bit of magic. :D
Improvements which will be in the redo
I found that it's possible to hookshot all the way up to the top without using the scarecrow first. This will save a shit ton of time, since it means skipping the Scarecrow's Song completely. Proof: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lSKninU1cjw
Both Wizzrobe battles could be manipulated to have him start at better positions. However, the time taken to make this happen made it ultimately slower (it only saved 3 frames (1 visual frame) per battle).
---
Enjoy.
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
Heh, that little glitch at the start was seriously nice. I've never seen that trick before, another Swordless Link original?
How many frames did you save in the temple so far? It's a shame you never went as far as Goht because I was looking forward to seeing what you came up with :-P Something to keep in mind when you get around to doing this again is when you fire arrow the tunnel (the next thing you would've done had the video not ended) is to try and recoil flip (its crappy MM equivalent) or something similar into the tunnel. I remember testing it quite a bit but it was always just out of reach so I had to go all the way around. I'm sure that you could find a way to do it. Also, after defeating Goht if you have a spare bomb your superslide technique might save a bit of time (using it after Goht is the first thing I thought of when I saw it). Finding the optimal position to hit Goht without him hitting you takes quite a bit of testing and I'm not convinced that mine's was the best possible so it'll be cool see what you do.
I don't know if the jump would be far enough, but if it is it should save some time...
That gap's way too far to clear. Also, about your proposed route from before. Hookshot>Beaver race doesn't work due to the whole Bottle>Hookshot requirement. Bow>Hookshot also puts a damper on that
Anyways, to settle the route issue, we need to A) figure out the ideal method for the current route, B) figure out the ideal method for the alternate route, C) figure out all the places they differ, and D) get time estimates for those places so we can figure out which is faster. I'll start with the current route.
First cycle stuff. Have 280 rupees by the end of the cycle OR 180+ECT chest.
Buy 20c/bomb bag, WW to lens of truth
Get Goron Mask
SoT
Buy 20c/bombs
Go to Swamp w/ Skull Kid cutscene skip
Get Koume's Bottle
Go to Deku Palace
Get Sonata of Awakening
Head to Woodfall
Get SoS
Open and Enter temple
Get bow
Leave for CT
Buy 10c*
Go to Great Bay
Get Zora Mask
Get Hookshot and 1 egg
Go to Mountain Village
Do Snowhead
Goron Race
Finish Woodfall
Ranch
Sell Gold Dust, buy 20c
Head to Ikana
Go up to Stone Tower
Back to CT for 20c more
Stone Tower Temple
Go to North Bay
Get the remaining 6 Eggs
NWBN, GBT
Hover into Clock Tower
Moon
New route
First cycle stuff, 290r in bank OR 190+ECT chest
Double time to Night of the First Day
Buy 20c/bomb bag
Go to Deku Palace via wrong warp
Get Sonata
Go to Woodfall
Get SoS
Open and Enter Temple
Get Bow
Warp to CT, buy 20c more
Wrong Warp to Lens of Truth
Get Goron Mask, warp to CT, buy 20c more*
Ranch time
Head to Great Bay. Double time when dawn breaks
Zora Mask, Hookshot, first egg
Snowhead
Gold Dust
Finish Woodfall
CT; sell Gold Dust, buy 20c
To Ikana
Go to STT entrance, back to CT for 20c more
Finish STT
Go to Southern Swamp for Witches' Bottle
Warp to North Bay
Eggs, GBT, etc
Back to CT
Moon
If anyone has any other routes/modifications to the above, please say so. Also, manipulation of rupees before the starred lines would save rupees, so how much can be done there would be good to know.
Anyways, next step is to make a list of differences among the routes and see how they time out.
Also, about your proposed route from before. Hookshot>Beaver race doesn't work due to the whole Bottle>Hookshot requirement.
At that point you would have one bottle in any case. Either the witches bottle (with the normal route) or the goron bottle (with the deku palace first route). And you only need one bottle to get the hookshot, so I don't see the problem. The only question that remains is if it would really be faster than the Romani bottle.
I think this part of the new route is still debateable:
petrie911 wrote:
Get Goron Mask, warp to CT, buy 20c more*
Ranch time
Head to Great Bay. Double time when dawn breaks
Zora Mask, Hookshot, first egg
Snowhead
Gold Dust
It might still be a good idea to do Snowhead directly after getting the Goron mask. Let's look at it:
Saves:
- two warps and one owl activation
- a trip to the bomb shop
- collecting rupes through a second trip through termina field or ECT chest (and a trip back to the bank as you re there to to deposit the 12r anyway, because you have to talk to the scarecrow)
Looses:
- collecting 12r before first getting to CT
- bombing up the spikeroom in Snowhead instead of using the hookshot
- a few other parts in there where having the hookshot or chus would be faster.
- Bombing yourself into the Goron racing with only bombs
I give you that doing snowhead without the hookshot and only with bombs sounds slower but collecting money, 2x warping and bombshop take quite some time and the alternative might just be faster.
I think before you can compare anything else the first thing that needs to be compared is which way snowhead would be afster (I mean with everything that is attached to it, ofcourse)
Furtherore it's not even clear if it would be late enough for romani if you would do snowhead after.
Btw, just for my information:
Woodfall can never be the first temple to be completed because Taya will attack you with an expositional onslaught if it is, right?
As far as I can tell, we only save 1 SoS doing Snowhead/Ranch/Fortress without bombchus. Meanwhile, that costs us 19 bomb hovers, ~65s. A SoS is ~25s, and SoS+bomb shop is ~45s. Add that to melting the ice and taking the stairs, and I think you've got a fairly large time deficit which won't be made up through rupee collecting savings.
BTW, a dedicated trip to the Bomb shop (ie, warp in, go to bomb shop, warp out) costs ~63 seconds, while a bomb hover costs ~3.5 seconds. Thus, as long as you use all 20 chus, a dedicated bomb shop trip is worth it.
On a 100% related note, as I make mild amounts of progress on cycle 3 of the 100% run (there's SO MUCH to do), I figured I'd take a look into what we actually need for the 4 dungeons, which will be taking up a lot of the cycle and largely determine how the cycle will be structured. And what better way to find the ideal route through a dungeon than to TAS it. So I give you the first of these, ie, Stone Tower.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-Wa1ONgAo4
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AN-fsVYAUg
Things of note:
--With a bit more judicious bombchu use, we should be able to get it down to 20 chus and still not have to do any bomb hovers. This means we can stock ourselves up to 40 chus before Ikana and not have to warp back to the bomb shop.
--Fire Arrows are needed, so STT must come after Snowhead.
--Elegy of Emptiness (and thus Mirror Shield) must be gotten before you do the east wing of the Inverted Tower.
--takes ~9hr game time (~3hr slowed game time)
--Using Fire/Ice Arrows on Twinmold isn't faster than using the Giant's Mask. Since Ice Arrows are used nowhere else, STT>GBT has no downside.
oh, and while I was doing this, I found this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPbUZKe1FIo
You can watch the losslessly encoded version here, but it's not what you'd think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAjs31YeHj8
So is there a route typed of the any% run swordlesslink is doing that I can see. One of the full game not just a segment of it.
I always love reading the routes.
Thanks.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I find it kind of lame to get the compass and map, I really don't see the point...
I know what your definition is but I still thing they are useless as they don't add anything useful.
Nice stuff though!
