Joined: 9/2/2008
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Location: United Kingdom
(This is mainly DS related but it's an idea we might need to know now rather than later. If this topic doesn't fit the General thread well, you can move it to the "Other Emulators")
The DS has loads of ways playing the games.
If a TAS run gets published we need to think which screen needs to be encoded during AVI recording stages.
Some Hardcore games (Mario 64 DS, New Super Mario Bros and Metroid Prime Hunters) has the main action on the top screen whilst the touch screen is some form of map (Level layout, progress or radar & Ammo), if those games has both screens encoded we would only see the top half with action whilst the bottom half with less action.
http://files.filefront.com/Mario+Wings+to+the+Sky+DS/;12919650;/fileinfo.html
This was from the latest DeSmuME' AVI recording in Xvid codec. With the Top screen being the main action you can see what I mean how awful is sorta looks sometimes (some people would only watch the top screen).
But there's more
Some games usually focus on the touch screen like Phantom Hourglass and Kirby's Power Paintbrush (Canvas Curse) however for Phantom Hourglass, some parts of the game uses both screens for action mainly boss battles. Imagine we only recorded the bottom screen and not showing the top screen for boss battles it wouldn't look right.
Last notificaiton: Some games are also required to play the DS sideways like Ninja Gaiden Dragon Sword, Brain Training and some major battles as Bowser on Mario and Luigi RPG 3. We don't want to see a TAS movie of the action in the wrong angle.
My whole point for this is that the future DS emulators would need more complex AVI recordings and noting certain frames from A to B which screens should be recorded at what angle.
But as long as I remember wasn't there a video player that allowed you to rotate the video image 90 degress or not?
I'd say that both screens should of course be captured, not doing so seems kinda iffy.
Perhaps the only thing that could be considered an issue is whether or not to insert a filler bar of something to such an effect for games such as contra 4, sonic rush/adventure, yoshi's island 2 etc. where there is roughly a 48 or 64 (it's been a while since I checked, it's most likely 64) pixel gap between what's displayed on the top/bottom screens.
In contra for example without the gap, it appears that bullets just magically disappear for several frames and then appear quite a fair amount of pixels to the right of where they should be if you don't factor in the between-screens space.
Joined: 9/2/2008
Posts: 289
Location: United Kingdom
Oh yeah the blind spots inbetween the screens is a good point too. I forgot about that since I had none of the games other than Yoshi Touch and Go which does involve throwing eggs from the bottom screen to the top screen.
I'd say that both screens should of course be captured, not doing so seems kinda iffy.
It would be ok to use both screens if the player has never played the game before like Super Mario 64 DS.
New Super Mario Bros would actualy be quite cool to use both screens when it comes to using the pipes that take you to the underground :).
We should compare what is already encoded, There's a lot of videos that already have both screen. The bar between screen should be calculated on a movie basis, some seems to include a space between the screens, others have a direct access. I mean that the game doesn't treat the space between the screen as a space, so the screen appears to be stick together.
I think for encodes this stuff should be properly edited for games where screen usage is not consistent.
Say for example with New Super Mario Bros, only show the top screen, and once you enter a pipe that takes you to the bottom screen have both screens scroll up in the video to only use the bottom one, then reverse when Mario goes to the top screen again.
For Zelda only show one screen, for boss battle or whenever both screens are in use zoom out to show both.
Of course all of this requires some more work for whom is encoding it, but I think it could make for some quite nice results.
Whoever wants to see both screens at all times, well there's still the input file.
For most games, just put the screens on top of each other. If the game has some correction (as Atma said), include a spacer between them that is either as large as the gap or smaller but enough to show the screens should not be taken together (e.g., 16 pixels). For "rotated games", those should obviously be rotated.
Messing with the screens is an all around awful idea.
Joined: 3/11/2004
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Location: Reykjavík, Ísland
Although it's not strictly necessary to encode both screens in certain games (New Super Mario Bros, etc), certain games will require it, such as Contra 4. Other games will be very confusing to watch without it (Zelda:Phantom Hourglass). So I think we better make it the norm to encode both screens, but certain games might be an exception.
Obviously, if the other screen shows *any* info *possibly* relevant to the game, then both screens must be shown. Kirby Draw Ball Paths = both screens, because the top screen shows a map of the level. Actually, I'm not too sure if almost any game doesn't make at least *some* use of both screens. NSMB is the only one I can think of, and even that uses it for the game map while on the overworld, so maybe not encoding it is a bad idea.
I'm not sure why not encoding both screens is put into perspective. We're encoding unedited emulator output, right? Encoding only one screen would rather make it edited (as in, the other screen edited out).
And as other people said, games with interscreen distance corrected should have a filler, and rotated videos somehow rotated (this is going to be really messy for our encoders, though…).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
I'll have to look into that. It'll mean there'll be alot of unused screenspace at the very least :S
It might be possible to do with multiple video streams in MKV..
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
I would prefer having both screen, even if there's nothing really interesting on the second screen. That would be awkward to have something the upper screen, something the lower screen, sometime both, something they switch in the movies. What about those time where the second screen is important for the like 10 seconds in an hour long movie ? Would you just record that 10 seconds to change the ratio of the movies ? That doesn't make sense.
Both screen would be better to not miss any information. In New Super Mario Bros, you would miss the item that you have in reserved.
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjavík, Ísland
moozooh wrote:
We're encoding unedited emulator output, right?
Not necessarily. The Mega Man 1 movie was encoded with a script (or something) that made the Magnet Beam appear more solid. In other words, better. It's OK because the original input file is still available and can be verified by anyone.
ZeXr0 wrote:
Both screen would be better to not miss any information. In New Super Mario Bros, you would miss the item that you have in reserved.
You're right. NSMB should be recorded with both screens.
Only if a game has *nothing* relevant on the other screen at *any* point should only one screen be encoded.
I think that unless the screen is blank, it should always be recorded, Zelda has a map. So there's always something relevant about the game on both screen. I can't think of a game that has the second screen blank.
I think that unless the screen is blank, it should always be recorded, Zelda has a map. So there's always something relevant about the game on both screen. I can't think of a game that has the second screen blank.
Agreed. If you really want to watch only the top screen, just use a window to overlap the bottom screen area of the video.
Not necessarily. The Mega Man 1 movie was encoded with a script (or something) that made the Magnet Beam appear more solid. In other words, better. It's OK because the original input file is still available and can be verified by anyone.
More like, it was an exception that happened purely because Bisqwit likes Megaman. ;) We don't see that happening in every other game which has flickering or wobbling, even though that would greatly benefit the relevant TASes.
We still don't chop off parts of the game screen, either, because it makes the video lose information (compared to beam solidifier, which was a gain in information, albeit recundant from the game's position), which doesn't really make anything "better". As ZeXr0 said, both DS screens should always be recorded unless one of them is blank. Only in that case information loss is averted.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Not necessarily. The Mega Man 1 movie was encoded with a script (or something) that made the Magnet Beam appear more solid. In other words, better. It's OK because the original input file is still available and can be verified by anyone.
More like, it was an exception that happened purely because Bisqwit likes Megaman. ;) We don't see that happening in every other game which has flickering or wobbling, even though that would greatly benefit the relevant TASes.
Actually, I think that it's because no one did something to change the visual of a glitch. I remember the Sonic Cam Hack that were encoded. I guess people should make visual change when it benefits the entertainment. To me, that should be added and counted toward entertainment in the vote.
The only game I know of that would be able to have its second screen chopped out is the classic mode of Bubble Bobble Revolution, which simply displays the logo on the top screen.
But that game is absolute shit anyway so.
Re: NSMB, let's not forget that certain levels have areas that swap the usage of the screens. Not to mention (as stated) that the world map occupies the screen as well as the timer, score, and other things.
So just always record both screen. The only thing that remains ans that is game specific, is the space between the two screen. As some game uses a space equivalent of the real space between them, other just uses no space so the screens appears stick together.
They won't really be any better, believe me. YouTube's maximum resolution for SD content is 480x360 (accessible via high quality switch or adding "&fmt=18" to the video link).
Whether you make two videos on top of each other or side by side, their total pixel count will be 98304 (256*192*2). Both 256x384 (stacked videos) and 512x192 (side by side) will be reduced in resolution to fit into 480x360 bounds. In both cases the resulting video will have a total pixel count of 86400, or 12% reduction.
To sum up, putting them side by side won't make them larger, clearer, or otherwise better. Putting them vertically as the DS displays it has a benefit described in this very sentence.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
No. I mean that in both cases, the screens will be of the exact same size. Horizontal alignment will not look better (and certainly not in case with sidescrollers, just test it for yourself).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
