Can't you just get OoB and grab souls in the first playthrough?
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 401
Location: Japan, Nagoya
Since my video is slightly faster than Atma's one, I paste it here. I wonder if more lag-reduction is possible. I believe it's almost the fastest anyway.
youtube video
Edit: moved some contents to another post, since the edit becomes too big.
I have a suggestion that could help this run. Upgradable Weapons. I did a little run of this myself on a regular DS and I upgraded my weapons and they helped me a lot. Would it be helpful?
they wouldn't. souls do the bulk of the damage in this game. and if you do have to use a weapon, land cancelling is usually all you need, and that only really goes for things early on. the trip to Yoko costs a lot of time as well.
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 401
Location: Japan, Nagoya
*separated some contents from my previous post and its edit*
I'm still tracing Atma (*). My movie is about 1 second faster than his one at the end of the Short Sword room.
DSM, Poor Quality AVIUseless notes
The run is harder than it looked. Soma usually goes too fast before a bone beats an enemy (o>_<)o
To hit a bone to an enemy as fast as possible since Soma has thrown it, is generally good strategy to go fast, as far as I saw. Optimizing how to beat enemies is not so easy though...
Randomness are changed at least when backdashing or attacking. (Luck-manipulating Axe Armor soul and Zombies are hard!)
About my movies
DeSmuME works MUCH slowly on my computer and the making takes time a lot. Also, I'm not so familiar with DS games. So it's somewhat hard to continue the work to the end.
However, if someone guides me what I should do next, I can continue the work without worries.
Feel free to edit the author field of dsm and continue the work btw. It's totally welcome ;)
Some memory addresses
7
00000 020CAA40 d h 0 X Position (Room)
00001 020CAA44 d h 0 Y Position (Room)
00002 020CA968 w s 0 X Velocity
00003 020CA96C w s 0 Y Velocity
00004 020C07E4 d h 0 Random Number?
00005 020F7414 w u 0 Soma's MP
00006 020F7448 d u 0 Soma's EXP
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 401
Location: Japan, Nagoya
moozooh wrote:
Is the way you canceled backdash with crouching slower than backdash-jumping?
Yeah, crouching is generally slower, because it decreases speed to 0.
Comparison on flat ground:
Backdash+crouching: (13784+13232+12680+12128+11576+11024+8624+0)/8 = 10381 (fastest average speed pattern)
Backdash+jump: (13784+13232+12680+12128+11576+11024+10472+9920+9368+8816+8264+7712)/12 = 10748
However, on downslope, backdash+jump decreases speed more. Therefore, as for downslope, backdash+crouching usually works better than backdash+jump.
My movie is about 1 second faster than his one at the end of the Short Sword room.
I knew it could be improved, and you did it magnificently. I never thought of crouch cancelling the backdash, but I was thinking that backdash jumping down slopes was bound to not be optimal.
DeSmuME works MUCH slowly on my computer and the making takes time a lot. Also, I'm not so familiar with DS games. So it's somewhat hard to continue the work to the end.
I think most people have this, although perhaps not quite as bad as you might have it. If you feel that it's looking kinda blah at the speed you emulate at, an avi will surely blow you away.
However, if someone guides me what I should do next, I can continue the work without worries.
In theory, if there wasn't lag associated with getting souls/killing stuff (like on a cart, unless you're pulling in like 6 souls at once with a dozen enemies dying on screen), I would have suggested 3 more axe armor souls, and possibly an axe. since there is significant lag however, I'd probably go with just the single soul, and make a run for the boss room.
In regards to the boss itself, keep it low, even if you have to waste some frames to do so. Also, try to kill it as far to the left as you can scroll wise, so that you have less distance to travel after the cutscene.
Some memory addresses
7
00000 020CAA40 d h 0 X Position (Room)
00001 020CAA44 d h 0 Y Position (Room)
00002 020CA968 w s 0 X Velocity
00003 020CA96C w s 0 Y Velocity
00004 020C07E4 d h 0 Random Number?
00005 020F7414 w u 0 Soma's MP
00006 020F7448 d u 0 Soma's EXP
Looks kinda similar to my list, though I lack y velocity and exp since I didn't really feel they were necessary at this point:
15
00000 020F2004 b s 0 MP value 1?
00001 020F7412 w s 0 Max HP value
00002 020F7410 w s 0 Current HP value
00003 020F7414 w s 0 Current MP value
00004 020F7416 w s 0 Max MP value
00005 0210AF44 w s 0 top of sprite hitbox
00006 0210AF48 w s 0 bottom of sprite hitbox
00007 0210AF42 w s 0 left of sprite hitbox
00008 0210AF46 w s 0 right of sprite hitbox
00009 020CA969 b s 0 X movement velocity
0000A 020CA9F3 b s 0 soma invulnerability 1
0000B 020CAA24 b s 0 soma invulnerability 2
0000C 020D3168 w s 0 some enemy HP value
0000D 020D36A8 w s 0 some enemy HP value
0000E 020D3948 w s 0 some enemy HP value
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 401
Location: Japan, Nagoya
Atma wrote:
In theory, if there wasn't lag associated with getting souls/killing stuff (like on a cart, unless you're pulling in like 6 souls at once with a dozen enemies dying on screen), I would have suggested 3 more axe armor souls, and possibly an axe. since there is significant lag however, I'd probably go with just the single soul, and make a run for the boss room.
Oh, does having 2 or more same souls make its effect stronger?
Anyway, I think I basically agree with you. Obtaining a soul lags too much :/
Also, thank you for contributing your watch list. It's somewhat useful.
I'm bored with optimizing Axe Armor room. I wonder how much irritating lags can be removed. Anyway, here's a progress... DSM AVI
Armor Knight soul also can be used to cancel damage motion instead of jump. According to my quick test, it's slightly faster than jump.
When turning around for backdash, pressing the down key (crouching) may save time a little. (kimited case)
Haha. Go over to SDA, download the SOTN run with Alucard, then turn on Satoryu's commentary and hear his feeling on zombies. You'll have happy to hear it. :P
Oh, does having 2 or more same souls make its effect stronger?Anyway, I think I basically agree with you. Obtaining a soul lags too much :/Also, thank you for contributing your watch list. It's somewhat useful.
For some souls, yes(the rate at which souls power up depends on the soul in question).
http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/ds/file/922145/39513
That should have accurate info on which souls level up at what amounts.
I'm certain that hunting for surplus souls might be counterproductive for two reasons:
1) luck manipulation + lots of additional lag + pausing to kill enemies may offset all the gains;
2) a first generation run will (and should) be beaten when a lag-free emulator is released, anyway, so there is little point in making too much effort for little gain this time around.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
In PoR i was anxious of lag, it didnt went "so bad" in the end, but here its a serious trouble already in first rooms and first souls... witch lead me to think like moozooh, if you make a run with 0.9.2 already, dont over do it, next year whith less-lags versions it wont sync for sure
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 401
Location: Japan, Nagoya
Thank you guys for your praises and advices.
What do you think about levelups (in other words, EXP management)? Is that effective or not?
P.S.
I'm still in the Axe Armor (and annoying Zombies!) room, but saved 3 frames for now. Probably I'll exit the room soon.
I found that I can beat the first Skeleton 1 frame faster (by using crouching cancel for the second backdash). However, the gain is soon drained by Armor Knight. So I decided to ignore that :P
00010 020D3168 w s 0 Some enemy HP value
00011 020D3408 w s 0 Some enemy HP value
00012 020D36A8 w s 0 Some enemy HP value
00013 020D3948 w s 0 Some enemy HP value
00014 020D3BE8 w s 0 Some enemy HP value
00015 020D3E88 w s 0 Some enemy HP value
00016 020D4128 w s 0 Some enemy HP value
00017 020D43C8 w s 0 Some enemy HP value
00018 020D4668 w s 0 Some enemy HP value
Hum, dont take my advice too seriously since im not realy good knowledge on dos, but, if you go for sucubus glitch later on, your exp matter only for boss before the glitch, after the glitch you should have enought equipment to brake trought anything regardless your level
At present, the current DeSmuME is like the old laggy VBA in the past. Which is different is that I don't see a flag like "Lag Reduction (DS)" will be provided in the fixed release, as according to a core developer, the timing inaccuracies are scattered here and there in the source, rather than a simple prefetch bug that only sits in a single file.
Yeah I think we are all just doing "test runs for the brighter future" at this point.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 401
Location: Japan, Nagoya
WIP: Watch on YouTube, DSM, AVI
I finally reached to where Atma end his video. My run is about 347 frames faster than his now.
Axe Armor gives gocha a present from Warehouse 23. It contains: A lot of lags (;=_=)
You'll find an ugly luck-manipulation in Flying Armor battle when you watch the run with slowdown. A better luck-manipulation will slightly improve the run, but I'm bored with doing that. (#=3=)
I found that Soma can go the next room of Flying Armor room without Flying Armor soul. (*>v<)
I haven't seen what to do next yet.
New memory addresses added
00019 020F2A88 b u 0 Magic Seal Step
0001A 020F2A8C b u 0 Magical Seal Substep
Looking good! Shame about the lag. Is that going to happen with all of the creatures that are made up from multiple components?
I do hope that when a run gets submitted it does something creative with the drawing for the save file. :)
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 401
Location: Japan, Nagoya
Derakon wrote:
Shame about the lag. Is that going to happen with all of the creatures that are made up from multiple components?
That might be true for the most of the cases.
Snake wrote:
Would it be of any help or be faster if you manipulate the Armor Knight to drop a Spear?
Voting no, since it lets me redo the run :P
Well, seriously, that may improve the run a little. As arukAdo has mentioned, the equipping time doesn't matter at all (It's so easy to equip Spear instead of Short Sword, isn't it?) In my run, Soma deals Flying Armor 8 damages by Short Sword, but if Spear is used instead, the amount will be increased to 12.
The real problem is, the motion of Spear cannot be canceled by landing. It means, you need more 2 frames to cancel the motion by backdashing+crouching. Possibly, it makes the run slower, but I'm really not sure. Also, I'm quite not sure about the lag problem mentioned by arukAdo.
Here is a demo of obtaining Spear in first battle scene anyway. I couldn't manage the randomness to obtain Spear without losing any frames, still it's difficult to know that I lost a few of frames, in regular watch :P
Demo of obtaining Spear: DSM, AVIEdit: Atma suggested me to obtain Axe instead of Spear, and I didn't know that Axe Armor drops Axe, it can be guessed so easily, though (,,=3=) Axe deals 19 damages.
