Post by arkiandruski

Posted: 7/13/2009 5:49 AM

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CtrlAltDestroy

Active player (325)

Joined: 2/23/2005
Posts: 786

Exhibitions haven't taken off because there isn't actually that much potential for them. The people who think it would open up a whole new world of possibilities are just imagining things. Most possibilities of entertainment have been covered by the actual speedruns, and those that haven't aren't really enough to justify a whole new movie. Sure, you will find a game here and there that is an exception, and when you do, go ahead and make a playaround and post it! The problem is that there just aren't that many games where this is worth doing where it would feel like you're not just treading old ground, but slower. Movie clip compilations on YouTube are a lot more appropriate instead, rather than having the buffer of playing the rest of the game in between the interesting parts, and expecting it to get published on a site where everyone's base attitude mismatches with yours. If you disagree with this statement, then it is simply a case of your base attitude not matching with mine. In that case, make some exhibition runs and prove me wrong, maybe they'll get published like the above movies I linked to. But I'm willing to bet that, if you actually get down and honestly try to do this, simply finding a game to provide an example is harder than it sounds.

Posted: 7/13/2009 8:50 AM

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eternaljwh

Joined: 3/11/2008
Posts: 583
Location: USA

Well, as noted, there's already the exception of fighting games (and shooters sometimes)- see UMK3 submission in workbench as an example, because the "fastest completion" is quite repetitive and boring. {insert argument about what TAS stands for, invocation of logo banners} I don't think such runs are a bad idea, but I don't think they're exactly easy to make, either. I don't think we really need a separate section, though a tag for them might be nice- also, making the "sift movies by tags" list/page easier/better would be good, on the side.

Posted: 7/13/2009 11:22 AM

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nesrocks

He/Him

Player (241)

Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil

If you feel like you have something interesting to do with a game that would cost time, make the movie as fast as possible and include that thing. If it's worth it, people will understand. If they don't, then they don't, and you post your video elsewhere. I make my videos for my own amusement first, if it suits this site, great, if it doesn't, whatever.

aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios

Posted: 7/13/2009 12:58 PM

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LagDotCom

Joined: 3/7/2006
Posts: 720
Location: UK

I'm also vaguely in favour of this 'category'. For example, I'd like to see a video of say, Tactics Ogre: Knight of Lodis where it gets all the secrets and kills all the bosses in silly ways, etc. It wouldn't be 'the fastest possible' nor would it be funny as such, but it would be interesting. Not to mention you could do silly things like dodge the same attack 90 times in a row, etc. Certainly I'm not the only person on this site with this view, and arguing that "we should only do things most people want to see" is kind of missing the point.

Voted NO for NO reason

Posted: 7/13/2009 4:18 PM

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OmegaWatcher

Joined: 5/2/2009
Posts: 656

I agree with arbitrary goals, if the goal is good and entertaining enough. Not just the "glitchfest", but "full runs", "low%", "no powerups" (small-only Mario World, for example), "glitchess".... Alden, in his Golden Oldies page, selected this Sonic 3 & Knuckles run. As he says, "the main feature of this "ancient" Sonic the Hedgehog movie is someone actually playing Sonic the Hedgehog". I'm not saying that he agrees with a new section just for this, but he have a point, and I believe it would be awesome to have different TAS categories.

My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =) (ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ

Posted: 7/13/2009 5:22 PM

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antd

Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain

Xkeeper wrote:

I think at this point it might be a good idea to just open an alternate site for non-TAS playarounds, since the idea is clearly wanted but unacceptable in this environment.

i would join

Posted: 7/13/2009 7:21 PM

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upthorn

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Active player (388)

Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802

CtrlAltDestroy wrote:

Most possibilities of entertainment have been covered by the actual speedruns....

This is less and less true as time goes by and oler runs are obsoleted by faster ones. Sometimes, (especially in early megaman games) the entertaining things ended up costing time and the game was not known well enough for this to be understood at the time. More often, though, it is just that it takes more work to be entertaining, and it is much harder for the author to judge fairly, so it falls by the wayside. This has been the case in several of my own submissions. Especially Sonic 1, where I felt that I had no chance of living up to JXQ's style on the wait times, so I did not really even try.

How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.

Posted: 7/13/2009 7:27 PM

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mz

Player (79)

Joined: 10/26/2007
Posts: 693

Judging by some of the descriptions given, perhaps what people want are Tool-Assisted Longplays:

Wikipedia wrote:

A longplay is a play-through of a computer or video game, created with the intent of completing it as fully as possible, mainly for the purposes of nostalgia, preservation, and possibly as a walkthrough. Unlike hectic speedruns, there is no time constraint aside from those imposed by bandwidth/filesize concerns. The defining characteristic of a longplay is that few shortcuts, if any, are taken to finish the game. Dull moments may be ultimately edited out of the final video, and sidequests may be ignored, but in general every task necessary to reach the end is to be recorded, including cutscenes.

If someone starts a TALVideos website, count me in too. :P

You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.

Posted: 7/13/2009 8:30 PM

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ZeXr0

Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883

And me too. I sure want to see some entertaining videos. I'm not even thrilled anymore by some new runs, because it's just plain boring. Ocarina of time, what a great game !... Backward... what a poor entertaining value that just kills the fun. Yeah you can shave 5 minutes or 10 minutes by walking backward. But it's not as fun as seeing what happens in the game. You can count me in, I sure would like some entertaining video.

Posted: 7/13/2009 8:32 PM

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upthorn

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Emulator Coder, Active player (388)

Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802

Wouldn't it be preferable to just start a section of this site for that? I mean we already have a good framework for the stuff, it's just a matter of setting separate standards for the new category.

How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.

Posted: 7/13/2009 8:39 PM

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ZeXr0

Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883

Well that's pretty much the point. I wouldn't want to split the almost same goals on two different website. A lot of people just want to see some new category on the site. You can even mark then in a different color, or different part of the site. But the forums are what makes the site. This shouldn't be splited.

Posted: 7/13/2009 8:47 PM

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alden

Player (120)

Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522

mmbossman wrote:

If/when someone submits a walkthrough, we can talk about it then, when we have a concrete example to refer to, instead of bullshit hypotheticals.

This may be the case, but perhaps people are not very motivated to make a movie that could be rejected without discussion on the grounds that it is outside the scope of the site.

I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs

Posted: 7/13/2009 11:30 PM

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klmz

Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2106)

Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania

Yes, according to my ratings, a movie where the character jumps over all enemies is usually very boring. As a result, I dislike pacifist runs. However, according tomy movie watching experience at this site, most of the published platformer/action movies don't fall into this category. Thus people who are complaining about seeing "too many jump right for justice movies" should watch more.

arkiandruski wrote:

There was a category I thought of that I didn't propose here, but I think would be cool (I think I saw some other people propose it here though, after I thought of it). The tool assisted walkthrough.

Wow, that is what I've been thinking about.

<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do

Posted: 7/14/2009 1:35 AM

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ZeXr0

Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883

Well there are a couple of games where killing an enemy takes longer that just getting hit and getting through. I think it falls in the boring category.

Posted: 7/14/2009 1:38 AM

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fruitbane

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Joined: 3/28/2005
Posts: 216

So this has been discussed before and nothing done about it. Does that mean (1) nobody's tried to submit a run that matches some of what we're talking about, (2) nobody's done anything to the site to accommodate it, or (3) both? I suspect (3). If there is a realistic possibility of expanding this site in some fashion to accommodate Longplays or blatant Exhibition runs, assuming submitted runs are indeed skillful and entertaining, then we should get started on said runs and do our best. If there are simply no indications of this possibility given by the site admins why should we bother?

Posted: 7/14/2009 1:49 AM

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ZeXr0

Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883

If any movie sent is longer than the previous, it is almost automatically rejected. In the current standard of the site, the run can't be accepted. If some admin just want to give it a try. It will be voted, but the question could be changed for that poll. Then maybe we'll see some awesome Super Metroid run. I don't know if I remember correctly, but there was a couple of run on the Super Metroid thread that were pure entertainment, and those where ... entertaining. But if the standard of the site doesn't changes, no one will be able to submit one. Couldn't the question be something like: Is this the most entertaning TAS you've seen for this game ?

Posted: 7/14/2009 2:11 AM

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mmbossman

Experienced player (822)

Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong

alden wrote:

mmbossman wrote:
If/when someone submits a walkthrough, we can talk about it then, when we have a concrete example to refer to, instead of bullshit hypotheticals.
This may be the case, but perhaps people are not very motivated to make a movie that could be rejected without discussion on the grounds that it is outside the scope of the site.

These people were motivated enough. Yes, none of them were walk-throughs. The common denominator is that they are entertaining (well, most of them anyway). If someone can make an extremely entertaining walkthough of a game, they should have no qualms about submitting it. The reason that there aren't more is that it's simply harder to make a really entertaining movie. But at the same time, this does not mean we should lower our standards.

Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page

Posted: 7/14/2009 2:18 AM

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OmegaWatcher

Joined: 5/2/2009
Posts: 656

Lower standards =/= new sections Just because they're different, doesn't it mean it's worse.

My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =) (ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ

Posted: 7/14/2009 2:24 AM

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roxahris

Joined: 8/24/2007
Posts: 23

Personally, I'd like to see a, well, "Tool Assisted Full-Play" category on the site. It sounds like a good idea. Besides, it's not like it hasn't been done before (in a way); Super Mario World, 64, Demo World? (And the SMAS glitch run, which I think did every level, too). Plus, the site has a few shmup TASes (although those might not be the best example for a full-play either).

Posted: 7/14/2009 2:30 AM

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ZeXr0

Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883

OmegaWatcher wrote:

Lower standards =/= new sections Just because they're different, doesn't it mean it's worse.

Pretty much what I think too. A new category isn't a lowered standard. It's just a new category. Something that can bring fresh air to the TAS that are produced and that can get a wider audience. I had a hard time showing a movie that really was entertaining to a newcommer. Sure there's some of the stars movies, but beside that, the other movies are great movies, but only for those who really know what a TAS is. Ocarina of time is one exemple, couldn't look the entire movie with a friend, walking backward was just too boring for him. Sure in a technical point of view, it's a great TAS, but it's not that entertaining. The WTF factor is too big when you don't know what happen. (Chrono Trigger would be another example with memory corruption)

Posted: 7/14/2009 2:30 AM

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mmbossman

Experienced player (822)

Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong

OmegaWatcher wrote:

Lower standards =/= new sections Just because they're different, doesn't it mean it's worse.

Read what I wrote, and click on the link. What I want is entertaining movies. What I don't want is this to turn into youtube.

Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page

Posted: 7/14/2009 2:34 AM

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ZeXr0

Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883

mmbossman wrote:

What I don't want is this to turn into youtube.

I can't agree more with you on that one.

Posted: 7/14/2009 3:11 AM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (277)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

See, but here's the deal. This is probably why it hasn't gained much ground. Someone just suggested a new idea to possibly make entertaining movies or to add a new category to the site, and while it gets some support there is a group of people who very vocally reject the idea outright, sight unseen. Doesn't really inspire confidence, does it?

My favorite movies

Posted: 7/14/2009 3:22 AM

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mmbossman

Experienced player (822)

Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong

arkiandruski wrote:

See, but here's the deal. This is probably why it hasn't gained much ground. Someone just suggested a new idea to possibly make entertaining movies or to add a new category to the site, and while it gets some support there is a group of people who very vocally reject the idea outright, sight unseen. Doesn't really inspire confidence, does it?

mmbossman wrote:

What I want is entertaining movies.

mmbossman wrote:

The reason that there aren't more is that it's simply harder to make a really entertaining movie.

How does this equal "vocally reject the idea outright, sight unseen"? Also, addressed to everyone who want to add a 'new category' to the site... how about we wait until some are submitted? Nothing looks worse than having a category with nothing to go in it.

Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page