Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
There are quite a few SNES RPGs from the 16-bit golden age of RPGs in my opinion. They would all be interesting, if anyone is interested in a big undertaking.
Breath of Fire 1 and 2
Well, these would both be very long, but there are some interesting tricks possible. In BOF2, one of the allies has an overworld ability which would allow you to bypass random encounters. Also, to get the best ending or not?
Lufia 1 and 2
The first one is a pretty simple game, and there is a cheap item that reduces enemy encounters. The second has no random encounters, battles are entered like Mystic Quest.
Paladin's Quest
One of my favorites due to the absolutely out-there fantasy of the world. The Japanese version is called Lennus, and there's a sequel which never made it out of Japan. This one would be tough unless you could find some tricks. There is no MP, magic is cast from your HP, and the last boss can only be damaged by magic. Furthermore, you have to use it constantly to build it up. Don't know if a clean timeattack of this can be done, but I can dream...
For genesis, has anyone considered doing any of the Phantasy Stars?
at Lufia you can manipulate luck for avoid fights like in Dragon Warrior.
at the beggining is a good idea buy arrows. they can damage all enemies.
in this game you can only carry 9 items of each.
also buy items like power gourd and speed gourd.
I was a huge fan of the lufia series until 3 and 4. 3 was a pain because of the dungeons, and 4 just hasn't really done much for me.
I'm playing through BOF 2 on GBA SP for the first time as we speed.
The best SNES RPGs I've played were Tales of Phantasia, Star Ocean and Chrono Trigger. CT has already plenty of fans and runs in the process. Tales and SO have random "encounters" and are quite long and very complicated (they're both with real-time battle systems, not turn based, so it becomes tricky). I think SO required some weird graphics packages installed, and it might be a bit of a bother.
On the other hand, Lufia, Terranigma, BoF 1, Bahamut Lagoon and the FF's didn't do anything for me. They were OK, but hardly very memorable.
The best SNES RPGs I've played were Tales of Phantasia, Star Ocean and Chrono Trigger. CT has already plenty of fans and runs in the process. Tales and SO have random "encounters" and are quite long and very complicated (they're both with real-time battle systems, not turn based, so it becomes tricky). I think SO required some weird graphics packages installed, and it might be a bit of a bother.
ToP has been done here in ~4.5 hours (not a final submission, since it was done with an English translation hack.) Very, very impressive and probably drops to low 4s in an official submission since Japanese text usually prints faster and there's still optimization to be done.
The "weird graphics packages" refer to the uncompressed graphics that Star Ocean and the other SDD1 chip game, Street Fighter 3 Alpha, used to get around emulating the chip. SDD1 allows for very high-level graphics compression that the main SNES chip would be too slow to do normally. SNES9x supports SDD1 emulation in all the movie-recording versions, so said packages aren't necessary anymore.
Along w/CT both were indeed amazing games. They play very similarly because they were both made by Tri-Ace. It's hard to believe that ToP came out in '94 only a little after FF6 and before CT, as it's much bigger megabit-wise than either and has much more technology (loads of voice-dubbing, including a full J-Pop intro song, etc.) and Star Ocean builds on many things in the same game engine.
"If all you did this year was sit in your cubicle and masturbate...say you're a self-starter who proactively reengineered your personal inventory with Total Quality, conforming to all EEO/OSHA/ISO9000 requirements."-Scott Adams
best snes rpgs IMO are the 2 seiken densetsu games (secret of mana 1 and 2 for the japanese impaired) and tales of phantasia. i just found this gem a few days ago and hav'nt stopped playing it. i love the battle system and hope the gamecube version i've bought is just as good. and yes i gotta agree that the BoF games were great as well. shame 4 and 5 were so bad. best one was 3 but thats for PS1. oh well, it deserves a mention
> and hope the gamecube version i've bought is just as good
Tales of Symphonia is a best-bits rehash of all the Tales games so far. You'll find some similar locations, items, summons and techs as ToP. If you've played Narikiri Dungeon, you'll know about costumes (ND2 has about 200, and I kinda wish ToS had more, but it's still a good addition). Many of the enemies have been in previous Tales games as well.
It's a very cliche'd game, in almost every respect. If you read this list of RPG cliches (http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html - it's funny), ToS follows most of them. But it ends up pretty good.. there's a few surprises in stall.
My first playthrough was 100 hours long, including most of the sidequests and item collecting. Just started my second playthrough. It's a long game. And surprisingly funny, at times.
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 359
Location: Borlänge - Sweden
100 hours? gash.. I think I got 58 or something. But I think I ran though Symphonias main quest without any sidequest. :S
Now Im trying to get as many points as possible so I could buy all the neat stuff in the beginning of the next playthrough :) like 10x exp :D
EDIT:
Ops.. wrong game. Thought you talked about ToS ;) my misstake
Ops.. wrong game. Thought you talked about ToS ;) my misstake
as I see it, he *is* talking about Symphonia.
Anyway: I bought the game a month or so ago. I'm not through yet, but it's one of the better RPG's I've ever played. The story begins a bit copied-by-ffx-and-xenogears, but soon becomes a touch of it's own.
I like the battle system too. A bit hectic, but certainly more fun thenjust chosing attack in some menu all the time.
If only I'd had some time to continue playing on, but work and this site here keep me from it. I've only played about 20 hours so far, so plenty of more interesting story to see.
I've blogged about the game here.
Philip
heh its too bad that most RPG runs seem to have been abandonned =/ (FF3/5 and Mystic Quest..Chrono Trigger is still going at least)
and is Rockman&Forte (i think anyways )
also viper is on a break for his SMW run heh
bad month for speedrunning ? =(
I think the breath of fire series would be quite long for speed running, and you will end up missing alot of the kool things that the game has to offer, cause its obvious that many things will have to be skipped. Hey, but i will support this the best way i can, i can give whoever wants to take this run the video walkthrough i made, it shows how to get everything though so you can choose what to skip. If anyone wants to do other RPG runs, i made one of
Breath of Fire 1
Breath of Fire 2
Chrono Trigger (Cheated though, must be redone)
Earthbound
Final Fantasy 6
Final Fantasy Mystic Quest
And 2 others i forget cause i am not by my computer and i am in another world.
Also, working on final fantasy 5, on the 3rd world, just passed the Pyramid. So i know those will come in handy for you'se. Besides, its much more interesting to watch a walkthrough than read about it, cause it also shows how it is done. Hope i can be of service ^-^
as a huge fan of both the bof and lufia series, i would love to see these done.
I could not possibly agree with this more. In fact, I would say in this era (before being able to play Japanese SNES RPGs emulated), these would be my two favorite series.
TheAxeMan wrote:
Breath of Fire 1 and 2
Well, these would both be very long, but there are some interesting tricks possible. In BOF2, one of the allies has an overworld ability which would allow you to bypass random encounters. Also, to get the best ending or not?
In BoF1, you can also use Mrbl3s I think, to avoid encounters. Rand abuse in BoF2 would be pretty sweet, you're right. I don't think getting the best ending adds an appreciable time, so I'd say go for it. I don't know how much leveling would be required for speedruns here, and I also don't have a general guideline as to how long these games take (since I don't see a timer anywhere), but I do know that I can end with Ryu in level 23 in BoF1 and level 26 in BoF2. From an offensive standpoint, with some of the constant damage through items and dragons in these games, low levels are more feasible, but luck manipulation might be less useful.
TheAxeMan wrote:
Lufia 1 and 2
The first one is a pretty simple game, and there is a cheap item that reduces enemy encounters. The second has no random encounters, battles are entered like Mystic Quest.
With luck manipulation, I can get to the Sinistrals in level 26 and under. However, Gades tears me a new ass. I don't have my original cart here with me, so I don't know what level I was able to beat it at legitimately. Lufia 2, although one of my favorite games ever, has the one flaw of being all downhill in difficulty after Maxim and Selan vs Idura, and nonexistant after the 2 Lions, so levels are not an issue there. Although I do have beef with your Mystic Quest comment. The battles are actually more like the complete opposite. In MQ, you must fight most enemies since they are camped in your path, while in Lufia 2, you can stun them and walk around them, avoiding almost regular encounters if you wish. Not to mention the quality of the games is completely opposite. ;)
I've skeptically heard some good things about Paladin Quest, so despite the goofy name I might put it on the back burner. =p
Phantasy Star: we can wish, but that'll be the day. =/
qbroger wrote:
I was a huge fan of the lufia series until 3 and 4. 3 was a pain because of the dungeons, and 4 just hasn't really done much for me.
I'm playing through BOF 2 on GBA SP for the first time as we speed.
Being a huge Lufia fan, I had almost finished repressing 3 and 4, which defines mediocrity, out of my memory. Did you know that after Lufia 2, Neverland, the developer, went bankrupt? If you knew that 3 and 4 were done by different people, would that give you a new perspective?
As for the GBA BoFs, I can understand if you don't have the original SNES carts, but they really nuked the difficulty, so I would recommend the original versions.
alexpenev wrote:
On the other hand, Lufia, Terranigma, BoF 1, Bahamut Lagoon and the FF's didn't do anything for me. They were OK, but hardly very memorable.
If you've played Lufia 1 but not 2, please check it out, because it is much different. IMHO the difference in quality is like that between FFMQ and FF6, Illusion of Gaia and Terranigma, SD2 and SD3, TO:KoL and TO:LUCT, or FFTA and FFT, as general guidelines. BoF2 compared to BoF1 is also true, but to a lesser extent. I can (with varying degrees of willpower) buy the games you've listed as not being memorable, but I wouldn't for Lufia 2 or BoF2. Although I am not a big story guy myself, without spoilers Lufia 2 has very unique plotpoints at midway and the ending, and BoF2 was basically ushered in a plotpoint which, well, wouldn't be very memorable today, but certainly was at the time.
Although, thinking of Lufia 1, I agree much of the plot was drab, but wasn't there the best plot twist in an RPG ever in this game?
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For my money, ToP is by far the most advanced (as to be out-of-place) game for its time, at least on the SNES. Also, ZSNES can play SO1 without graphics packs now, but it still can't rerecord. ;)
About ToS, does anyone get a sort of empty feeling with all the rehash compared to the amazing feeling you got when you played ToP the first time? In series with mass developer exodus (Tales after ToP, Ogre series after TO:LUCT, Lufia after Lufia 2), I've noticed, the people left behind seem to be more concerned with maintaining the status quo rather than innovating. Tri-ace has gone on to be amazing, Quest less so (still hopeful for FF12 though), but at least Star Ocean, Valkyrie Profile, and Vagrant Story are different. Tales, while good, is still just Tales.
Doesn't Lufia II have that special 100 floor dungeon? I'd like to see a run through that. IIRC, it doesn't matter what you have when you enter the dungeon, because you start off at lvl 1 essentially naked. So you can likely start from a save state at the island, and do the dungeon from there.
Also, isn't there a "new game +" in Lufia II that gives bonus XP? It starts out just like a virgin game, but all the battles give 4 times the XP I think. That would definately make for a faster run, but would likely require starting from a save state (the game has to be beaten once). I'm not sure if the boosted XP run works in the 100 floor dungeon, but IMO that would be the L2 run to do.
yea i know the later ones (Lufia) were made by different people, but you'd think they could try some of the game mechanics that works so well in the second one. I mean the story did nothing for me in 3, so much so that i didn't bother finishing it because of the annoying dungeons. I'm not that far into 4 yet, but I haven't heard good things about it, so i'm not looking for anything.
Doesn't Lufia II have that special 100 floor dungeon? I'd like to see a run through that. IIRC, it doesn't matter what you have when you enter the dungeon, because you start off at lvl 1 essentially naked. So you can likely start from a save state at the island, and do the dungeon from there.
Also, isn't there a "new game +" in Lufia II that gives bonus XP? It starts out just like a virgin game, but all the battles give 4 times the XP I think. That would definately make for a faster run, but would likely require starting from a save state (the game has to be beaten once). I'm not sure if the boosted XP run works in the 100 floor dungeon, but IMO that would be the L2 run to do.
There are 3 modes: Start, Retry, and Gift. Start is like a normal game. Beating it unlocks Retry, which is the same but with 4x XP. Beating Retry unlocks Gift, which starts you off in Gruberik (the Ancient Cave town) and allows for AC runs with any party you like. You can go through Lufia 2 anyway without leveling, so a Retry speedrun would be pretty pointless compared to a pure normal run. Since runs must be made from reset, the Gift mode is perfect for the AC.
In fact, it's amazing you said this, since I was actually planning an AC run. (It might not look anything like what you might be expecting, though.) I would have liked to keep this under wraps until I did it, but I figured before I wasted my time I would like to know if Bisqwit would approve of it. While beating the Master Jelly at the bottom floor of the Ancient Cave does not end the normal game itself, the Ancient Cave is like a self-contained game within the bigger game. I would try to argue that beating the AC has a more defined ending compared to, say, a no sword Zelda run or Super Metroid no-boss run. I would ideally prefer an AC speedrun to start with Gift mode and end with putting the Master Jelly on display in the basement. Bisqwit, or some higher-up, if you're reading this, what do you think?
On a side note, I wonder how fast anyone can do the World's Most Difficult Trick? I have a ZMV, I think from Zophar, of someone doing this.
yea i know the later ones (Lufia) were made by different people, but you'd think they could try some of the game mechanics that works so well in the second one. I mean the story did nothing for me in 3, so much so that i didn't bother finishing it because of the annoying dungeons. I'm not that far into 4 yet, but I haven't heard good things about it, so i'm not looking for anything.
Really, as I said earlier, I think the problem is actually that they tried too hard to reuse some of the earlier game mechanics. For example, everyone thought the Ancient Cave was an amazing idea and so much fun in Lufia 2. So the developers thought, what if we made a whole game with randomized dungeons? Well, without the carefully designed puzzles and dungeons to act as a foil to the random dungeon, it got old and made no sense to use in the main game. The execution, of course, was also a big issue. Reusing the capsule monster idea was also considered to be a failure, although unfortunately, this was probably due to the Pokemon phenomenon in between.
Doesn't Lufia II have that special 100 floor dungeon? I'd like to see a run through that. IIRC, it doesn't matter what you have when you enter the dungeon, because you start off at lvl 1 essentially naked. So you can likely start from a save state at the island, and do the dungeon from there.
Also, isn't there a "new game +" in Lufia II that gives bonus XP? It starts out just like a virgin game, but all the battles give 4 times the XP I think. That would definately make for a faster run, but would likely require starting from a save state (the game has to be beaten once). I'm not sure if the boosted XP run works in the 100 floor dungeon, but IMO that would be the L2 run to do.
You DO NOT lose all your items when you enter the Ancient (100 floor) Dungeon. You lose MOST of them, but the more powerful weapons in the game you do not lose. This goes for the treasure that you get from the blue chests in the dungeon itself. One weapon that I know you keep is the Gades Blade, which you get if you acually manage to beat Gades the first time you see him.
I also have to say that a run through the Ancient Dungeon wouldn't be entertaining. I went through it myself a few years ago, and watched my sister go through it when I was home for this past Christmas. To have a chance of taking off enough damage against the super slime at the end you more or less need to kill every monster in the dungeon, which would not be interesting at all to see. Also in the idea of manipulating the floors to get fast access to the next floor/the blue chests you want is possible, I watched my sister do it. However, after she skipped the last 10 or so floors she could not take off the 10000 HP on the slime, and she had been killing everything up to that point.
Your right about the 4x experience when you beat it once, but I don't see why this should be used in a run. This isn't the normal way is played, and would give people illusions of how the game works. If you were going to do that you may as well play the game through twice so you can get gift mode and then do the Ancient Dungeon run with characters you aren't suppose to even have.
IIRC, there was a bug in this game in which if you killed yourself, you "beat" the master jelly, would you use that on a video. Also, for the speedrun, will you start from a totally new game or start with some Blue Chest?
I'll love to see that video sometime, even if it takes lots of time I'll wait...
IIRC, there was a bug in this game in which if you killed yourself, you "beat" the master jelly, would you use that on a video. Also, for the speedrun, will you start from a totally new game or start with some Blue Chest?
You realise if you used this glitch the run would consist of entering the dungeon at level 1, then manipulating each floor to put a staircase right beside where you come down from 99 times, and then killing yourself against the master jelly at level 1. There would be no battles, no item collecting, no leveling, only walking down stairs until you kill yourself and "win".
Edit: The only reason this would be worth doing is if you included it in a full game run. You go through the whole dungeon at level 1 manipulating each floor to have a staircase right next to where you go, and manipulate things to get the most powerful items from the blue chests. Of course this would be a TON of work, and would probably take more time than the rest of the run...
I would say you could do this to get all the Iris treasures in one go, but frankly I have no idea what you get for getting them all...
You realise if you used this glitch the run would consist of entering the dungeon at level 1, then manipulating each floor to put a staircase right beside where you come down from 99 times, and then killing yourself against the master jelly at level 1. There would be no battles, no item collecting, no leveling, only walking down stairs until you kill yourself and "win".
That's why I asked that, it would be boring for a video like what you mention, so I'm curious of what would the video will be like...
IIRC, there was a bug in this game in which if you killed yourself, you "beat" the master jelly
That's a glitch? I thought that was the whole challenge of the battle, why else does the slime do nothing but heal your party? (I seem to remember finally beating myself/it, getting whatever item it had, but then being stuck on that floor with no way out of the dungeon.)
