Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
If it's possible (for me) to get DeSmuME to run Mega Man ZX Advent with actual sprites, I might make a run of this.
A few things I'm wondering about:
-Beginner or Normal mode? In Beginner Mode bosses take more damage, but I don't feel like just picking the 'easiest' mode. Normal isn't the highest difficulty, although the true highest difficulty can't be unlocked from the start - it needs you to beat the game on Normal first.
-also, Grey or Ashe? I don't really know which one's intro level is shorter, and I don't think there are any relevant differences between the two, although I could be wrong.
Opinions? Suggestions?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
you'd need to wait for the next version to tas this game, as .9.4 doesn't actually display sprites iirc (the current svn does though).
Anyway. Normal mode would be the choice to take, and the difference between grey and ashe is in their busters while in A form.
There are other differences with the characters. For instance, Model P's charged attack is different between the two characters. I can't remember which was better right now, though, but the other shot a spinning blade and the other did something else that was less useful. (Or maybe I'm just remembering differences in the boss patterns?) Whether that counts as relevant or not is for you to decide.
Ashe's buster is more powerful, so I'd probably go with that.
From what I remember reading on SDA, Grey's game was a little bit faster.
Doing Beginner has the benefit of activating warp points without having to pay. There are only two such points that were worth activating. But I wouldn't know if you can round up the money required to activate them quickly enough.
I think nomal mode should be choice take, fight with the boss in beginner mode is very uninteresting.
Also, i don't know which one's level is shorter, but if i'm working on this, i'll choose Ashe for the ZX form's skill, and the charged buster shoot in A form.
Joined: 2/28/2006
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Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
Normal mode.
Also Ashe is the obvious choice. Nobody even remembers the name of that other guy.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Grey's Model A form's charged shot deals more damage than Ashe's, but Ashe's charge shot can bounce off walls like the laser shot EX skill in MMZ3.
Uncharged, Ashe can have 2 shots on the screen at time, while Grey can have 3 weaker ones.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
thechucknorrisofNSMB wrote:
And Ashe, when at point-blank range, can shoot indefinetly.
What do you mean by 'shooting indefinitely'? Do you mean simply rapid firing? That's not anything new. And I knew about pressing start to skip cutscenes, but thanks either way.
Now, I have a few questions.
First, what's the fastest way of movement?
- Model A dashing
- Model A bunny-hopping (constantly dash-jumping)
- Model A alternating dashing and dash-jumping
- Buckfire dashing
- Aeolus' air dash?
- Above model A methods with Siarnaq?
- Argoyle's dash
Second, what do you think of the following route: [SPOILER ALERT]
-Intro stage, duh (character to be decided)
-Hunter Base, go to Train, fight Buckfire
[plot-related warp to Train 1: go to Hunter Base 1 to get Red Key]
-Go from Hunter Base 1 to Train 1 and get Train 1 checkpoint
-Go to Tower of Verdure, get checkpoint 1 (beat Rospark with Model A)
-after warping from ToV4 to ToV1 transerver, warp to ToV1 checkpoint
-go to Arctic Ice Floe, beat Chronoforce with Buckfire
-go through Oil Field, beat Atlas with Rospark (?)
-warp to Train 1, go to Legion HQ, beat Siarnaq with Model A (?)
-warp to Highway, beat Thetis with Buckfire
-warp to Floating Ruins, beat Aeolus with Thetis
-warp to Scrapyard, beat Vulturon with [undecided]
-warp to Control Center, beat Queenbee with Rospark (?)
-Quarry: Beat Model ZX with Model A (?)
-go to Bio Lab, get checkpoint 1, beat Bifrost with Model ZX*, get checkpoint 4
-warp to Bio Lab 1, go to Waterfall Ruins, get checkpoint 1, beat Argoyle & Ugoyle with Model ZX*
-warp to Waterfall Ruins 1, go to Mysterious Lab, beat Hedgeshock with Model ZX*
-warp to Bio Lab 4, use special transerver to go to Undersea Volcano
-beat Prometheus and Pandora with Model ZX*
[plot-related warp to Hunters Base 1]
-go to Ouroboros
-beat all bosses with Model ZX*
[SPOILER ALERT END]
*I found an exploit (at least in my European ZXA) where if during Model ZX's jump slash, uppercut (Ashe) and maybe downstab (Grey) keeps damaging the opponent as long as the hitbox keeps touching them, allowing Model ZX to do a lot of damage very quickly. I don't know if it works in other versions besides the one I have.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I know using Deerburn on Chronoforce is slower than using Model A. I'd venture it would be the same for Thetis. And I find it hard to believe using Rospark on bosses is beneficial.
Bifrost has to be the last one you fight, as the portal to the last stages if right after him, and his form is useless.
And how can you use the spinning slash and an EX skill at the same time?
I guess that's the same trick as in the MMZ series. Just do a jumping slash right before you land and do a second attack then. I haven't tested it in MMZXA yet.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
No, I meant doing a spinning slash and sticking the hitbox into the opponents as long as possible.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
And Ashe, when at point-blank range, can shoot indefinetly.
What do you mean by 'shooting indefinitely'? Do you mean simply rapid firing? That's not anything new. And I knew about pressing start to skip cutscenes, but thanks either way.
Now, I have a few questions.
First, what's the fastest way of movement?
- Model A dashing
- Model A bunny-hopping (constantly dash-jumping)
- Model A alternating dashing and dash-jumping
- Buckfire dashing
- Aeolus' air dash?
- Above model A methods with Siarnaq?
- Argoyle's dash
Second, what do you think of the following route: [SPOILER ALERT]
-Intro stage, duh (character to be decided)
-Hunter Base, go to Train, fight Buckfire
[plot-related warp to Train 1: go to Hunter Base 1 to get Red Key]
-Go from Hunter Base 1 to Train 1 and get Train 1 checkpoint
-Go to Tower of Verdure, get checkpoint 1 (beat Rospark with Model A)
-after warping from ToV4 to ToV1 transerver, warp to ToV1 checkpoint
-go to Arctic Ice Floe, beat Chronoforce with Buckfire
-go through Oil Field, beat Atlas with Rospark (?)
-warp to Train 1, go to Legion HQ, beat Siarnaq with Model A (?)
-warp to Highway, beat Thetis with Buckfire
-warp to Floating Ruins, beat Aeolus with Thetis
-warp to Scrapyard, beat Vulturon with [undecided]
-warp to Control Center, beat Queenbee with Rospark (?)
-Quarry: Beat Model ZX with Model A (?)
-go to Bio Lab, get checkpoint 1, beat Bifrost with Model ZX*, get checkpoint 4
-warp to Bio Lab 1, go to Waterfall Ruins, get checkpoint 1, beat Argoyle & Ugoyle with Model ZX*
-warp to Waterfall Ruins 1, go to Mysterious Lab, beat Hedgeshock with Model ZX*
-warp to Bio Lab 4, use special transerver to go to Undersea Volcano
-beat Prometheus and Pandora with Model ZX*
[plot-related warp to Hunters Base 1]
-go to Ouroboros
-beat all bosses with Model ZX*
[SPOILER ALERT END]
*I found an exploit (at least in my European ZXA) where if during Model ZX's jump slash, uppercut (Ashe) and maybe downstab (Grey) keeps damaging the opponent as long as the hitbox keeps touching them, allowing Model ZX to do a lot of damage very quickly. I don't know if it works in other versions besides the one I have.
Couple things to say:
-Yes, by 'shooting indefinitely' I mean rapid firing.
-I dunno what's fastest, but I know you can dash-jump up walls.
-Beat Queenbee with Aeolus, he's electric
-Beat ZX with Model A, when he switches to the wall-jump attack use Atlas(she can fire upward)
-I can figure out who to beat Vultron with, except I don't have time right now
-For all bosses, start with Mega Crush, then switch to optimal character
-The exploit also works in my late-release American version.
Satoryu wrote:
And I find it hard to believe using Rospark on bosses is beneficial.
Fire type bosses(Atlas and Queenbee) are weak to Electric types(Rospark and Aeolus)
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
thechucknorrisofNSMB wrote:
-I dunno what's fastest, but I know you can dash-jump up walls.
You sure that's the fastest way to move upward, even if there is only one wall?
thechucknorrisofNSMB wrote:
-Beat Queenbee with Aeolus, he's electric
Rospark is electric as well, and Rospark can rapid-fire upwards to destroy the hive and then shoot charged shots on Queenbee herself. I think using Aeolus' sabers to destroy the hive and then air dashing upwards and firing a charged tornado to hit Queenbee is slower.
thechucknorrisofNSMB wrote:
-Beat ZX with Model A, when he switches to the wall-jump attack use Atlas(she can fire upward)
I believe shooting charge shots while climbing the other wall is faster (because it doesn't need transformating) and if wall-climbing can be luck-manipulated out for moves that don't make ZX unhittable that'd be even better.
thechucknorrisofNSMB wrote:
-I can figure out who to beat Vultron with, except I don't have time right now
Good.
thechucknorrisofNSMB wrote:
-For all bosses, start with Mega Crush, then switch to optimal character
Given that nearly every boss battle (except the rematches) automatically reverts you to model A first, that won't be much of a problem. I don't know if that's always effective, though, since some characters (like Rospark) need the biometal meter to attack with charged attacks quicker.
thechucknorrisofNSMB wrote:
-The exploit also works in my late-release American version.
Good.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Fire type bosses(Atlas and Queenbee) are weak to Electric types(Rospark and Aeolus)
That doesn't necessarily mean it's better to fight them that way. Mobility is an issue with Rospark, I would think. And there's also the LME problem that was just mentioned. I can understand Rospark being effective on Queenbee, but I would think Atlas is way too mobile for Rospark to be effective.
If you can just find a .duc file with highest diffculty unlocked. You just would have to open it with in the first few frames of your tas. Then again when ever you played it back. So you could tas it on the highest diffculty it just probably wouldn't be except by tasvideos.
-I dunno what's fastest, but I know you can dash-jump up walls.
You sure that's the fastest way to move upward, even if there is only one wall?
thechucknorrisofNSMB wrote:
-Beat Queenbee with Aeolus, he's electric
Rospark is electric as well, and Rospark can rapid-fire upwards to destroy the hive and then shoot charged shots on Queenbee herself. I think using Aeolus' sabers to destroy the hive and then air dashing upwards and firing a charged tornado to hit Queenbee is slower.
thechucknorrisofNSMB wrote:
-Beat ZX with Model A, when he switches to the wall-jump attack use Atlas(she can fire upward)
I believe shooting charge shots while climbing the other wall is faster (because it doesn't need transformating) and if wall-climbing can be luck-manipulated out for moves that don't make ZX unhittable that'd be even better.
thechucknorrisofNSMB wrote:
-I can figure out who to beat Vultron with, except I don't have time right now
Good.
thechucknorrisofNSMB wrote:
-For all bosses, start with Mega Crush, then switch to optimal character
Given that nearly every boss battle (except the rematches) automatically reverts you to model A first, that won't be much of a problem. I don't know if that's always effective, though, since some characters (like Rospark) need the biometal meter to attack with charged attacks quicker.
thechucknorrisofNSMB wrote:
-The exploit also works in my late-release American version.
Good.
-Actually, use Deerburn's uppercut, then if there's only one wall, dash-jump with Model A, if there's two, jump between them.
-Actually, now I agree with you on that one.
-Well, I'm still sticking, but we can cross that bridge when we get there(solve the problem when it happens)
-Vultron is neutral, it is probably best to use Model A, but let's cross that bridge when we get there again.
-What I meant was charge up Mega Crush, start boss battle, use Mega Crush, but that doesn't work on a few bosses(if you do this at the Deerburn fight, you'll get sabre-kicked when you finish)
-Good thing you said good.
bzb95 wrote:
If you can just find a .duc file with highest diffculty unlocked. You just would have to open it with in the first few frames of your tas. Then again when ever you played it back. So you could tas it on the highest diffculty it just probably wouldn't be except by tasvideos.
There are some exceptions (Chrono Trigger NG+ comes to mind) but it's a restricted area, so be careful. However, that's probably not what you're talking about.
Also, there are a couple useful things that come to mind when TASing, no?
EDIT: I just beat this game, so here is a final boss strategy that should be super effective!
1.As soon as it starts, use Atlas with her rapid-fire dual cannons(could require sub tanks, items, improved total health or just simply dodging) until the last form("god" form)
2.Use Giga crush, and then immediately after...
3.Use Model ZX's Rolling Slash on him
4.Skip text, end movie,you killed him!
I beat it within a minute this way.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
I just found out that the Rospark on Queenbee strategy doesn't work as uncharged shots (and maybe charged ones too) don't work on Queenbee's lower body.
EDIT:It only gets reflected at the edges, it's possible to take a hit, jump in, megamerge and then rapid-fire. I'll see how that works when I get there in the TAS.
Also, after having looked the facts over, Grey may be the superior choice. Atlas firing a fully charged shot as Ashe shoots out a bomb which explodes and has more range, but Grey shoots a fireball which uses less Biometal meter, which is fairly critical as Ashe's shots run out far too quick.
Also, overall Grey has less painful voice acting.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
I just made this run of Grey's intro stage.
The (lengthy) intro cutscene apparently can't be skipped with clear SRAM.
Maybe it can be skipped by letting it play for 1 frame, soft-reset (L+R+Start+Select) and skip it that way, but my keyboard doesn't like 5 keys pressed at once.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I just made this run of Grey's intro stage.
The (lengthy) intro cutscene apparently can't be skipped with clear SRAM.
Maybe it can be skipped by letting it play for 1 frame, soft-reset (L+R+Start+Select) and skip it that way, but my keyboard doesn't like 5 keys pressed at once.
You can use autohold for that. (Hold down the autohold hotkey and press and release each of those buttons one at a time, then release the autohold hotkey, then frame advance once, then press the clear-autohold hoykey and keep going as normal.) But, you can't skip this cutscene that way anyway.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
I redid the run up to Buckfire, shaving off a few seconds along the way due to various optimizations. Now the next problem is that I don't really get how boss invincibility works. I noticed that sometimes the bosses get hit by shots when they shouldn't. Maybe some of you know more about it, so I can abuse the invincibility system as much as possible.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I redid the run up to Buckfire, shaving off a few seconds along the way due to various optimizations. Now the next problem is that I don't really get how boss invincibility works. I noticed that sometimes the bosses get hit by shots when they shouldn't. Maybe some of you know more about it, so I can abuse the invincibility system as much as possible.
It does happen in other MM games. Try using Shotgun Ice on Spark Mandrill in MMX, for instance.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
Yeah, but that's because the invincibility ends on Spark Mandrill while he's still being frozen.
I'm talking about them taking damage while in invincibility (?); at 4:45 of this (canceled) WIP video made by me, on the hit that doesn't cause the screen to flash, Buckfire actually gets hit twice (at nearly exactly the same time; it's barely visible); once by the charged shot, and also by an uncharged shot. It means that invincibility rules don't always apply for everything, and how that really works is what I want to find out.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
