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Post subject: Seiken Densetsu 3
Joined: 1/1/2022
Posts: 1716
Not much to say but is there or will there ever be a speedrun of Seiken Densetsu 3? If there already is one I would appreciate if someone could tell me where I can get it. And if there are no speedrun I'll say good luck and have fun to the one who dares to complete this game as fast as possible. Thanks in advance and have a nice day.
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
I recorded a 100% movie-walkthrough (not a TAS) of this game 2 years ago. Requires ZSNES v0.989c to playback correctly though. Got a time of 15 hours before the final boss. Check the ZSNES section to download the movie.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Joined: 1/1/2022
Posts: 1716
Thanks dude it will be really fun to watch since it must be pretty hard to make a good speedrun to it.
Joined: 4/11/2005
Posts: 57
It's not going to be easy. With 7! = 5040 ways to defeat the godbeasts and 3 different stories some testing needs to be done. With Kevin being the obvious character to use we still need to choose 2. And we can't forget class change either. Then there are many bugs, like Kevin getting a free power up when hit in wolf form(?). Or the auto-cancelling bug (or whatever it should be called).
I won't give up unless my victory is assured!
Joined: 1/14/2005
Posts: 216
There was some talk about this game at SDA before, and I have personally beaten this game with savestate abuse at level 32, so I know a TAS would be able to be low level. Besides Kevin, Hawk is also very obvious. The last character should probably be Riesz. Actually, I don't think it's very tough to decide. Also, it's not as bad as you suggest with 7! and such since many of those combinations are obvious throwaways and you can just follow the natural progression of the days. About class change, I don't really see the point in a TAS. Definitely the 2nd one is not needed. Maybe the 1st one is to speed things up since your stat ups get caps.
"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/
Post subject: Seiken Densetsu 3 / Secret of Mana 2
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
I haven't found any signs of a TAS or WIP of a TAS for this game yet, so I try making one myself. Input for two players is used; three players is only possible by hack, therefore not allowed here. The WIP currently lasts almost 55 minutes, ingame 52 minutes and a few seconds. It ends soon after leaving Forcena via canon on the way to Byzel. Team consists of: Kevin - wolf form and all of it's bugs/features Riese - learns invaluable stat-downs after class change (stat ups can be replaced by items from Byzel's market, and cast faster in fact) Hawk - out-performes all remaining characters; casters are obvious inferior on a TAS (unless someone finds a game breaking glitch that requires them), and Duran would only be faster on the first boss, afterwards glitches help Hawk more edit: Hawk is selected as lead, Kevin as 2nd, Riese last. One glitch I use so far is forcing the game to allow strength on every lvl up (until stat cap at least); this is achieved by confusing/overloading the game; might not look too good and sacrifices a bit of time now, but makes more than up for it soon (max str 9-10 lvls too early).
Player (70)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
I will need to take a look at this when I have some more spare time. Sounds interesting. Also.. Personally I would not mind to see a hack where 3 player is allowed. Can also be cool. Cheers
Post subject: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 / Secret of Mana 2
Mastania
He/Him
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
praetarius3 wrote:
One glitch I use so far is forcing the game to allow strength on every lvl up (until stat cap at least); this is achieved by confusing/overloading the game; might not look too good and sacrifices a bit of time now, but makes more than up for it soon (max str 9-10 lvls too early).
I KNEW it worked something like that. I would watch this, but it desyncs as soon as the character menu comes up. Anyway, I've been really looking forward to a TAS of this game, so that someone would hopefully figure out how all the weird bugs like this work. Blazing through at incredibly low levels will be really interesting to watch, but it also means you'll probably have to make a trip back to the Mana Holy Land to get that first CC.
Waddle Waggle Wattle
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Good luck! It's gonna be a long TAS though. Almost an hour and you're only maybe a third of the way through the first half of the game. Your party loadout sounds reasonable, though I can't remember offhand which of the final dungeons is shortest (which could have informed which leader you chose). I'm a bit surprised you're going with Hawk and Lise and then sending Lise dark, though; is Hawk not going to use his spells at all? Regarding class changes, it might make sense to hang out in some high-XP spot in either the snowfields or the desert (whichever you do second, obviously) to grind to 18. Returning to the Holyland just to class change is a huge detour.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2623
encoding wip
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
stat downs: Hawk vs Lise -Lise gets def down at 20, Hawk later at 27 or so (7 lvls is a lot if we can finish at about 33) -Hawk actually needs to invest (a lot) in agility to learn them, Lise nothing -Hawk's are elemental; if a boss absorbs that element, the stat-down is not applied. Light side Hawk's spells shouldn't be useful either: the transformation and sleep spell should be obsolete with sufficient luck manipulation; and the damage ones - let's say not worth it. So he won't cast at all, and go dark for +1 max str. The plan was to fight enough so that I can class change right after I have gotten both water and fire spirit - as in after bill&ben and 3x golems. Lv20+ at gildervine would be useful. Reason for this specific story line - most people tend to think that this one's the hardest path, so yeah. About expected time... a normal speed runner said he once did (slightly) above 5h, aiming in his current try for under 5h (both in game time). I recall I'm about 4 min ahead with a bit mroe exp and money, but less than 4,5h don't seem too realistic then.
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2623
Well, looking at it, there's a few mistakes, I'll upload this to youtube later. I have to go to work. Here's the mkv (still uploading) http://engelsish.org/avi/sd3-tas-praetarius3-wip.mkv It seems that I'll have to reencode it, the hard subbing of the Japanese characters failed. :(
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Skilled player (1431)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
praetarius3 wrote:
Reason for this specific story line - most people tend to think that this one's the hardest path, so yeah.
Do you have Hawk/Riese or Kevin as your main? Since you listed Kevin first I assumed he was, but Hawk/Riese's final dungeon and bosses are way harder imo.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
The selection order was Hawk, Kevin, Liese. I just listed them differently, specifically in the order I decided to take them.
Former player
Joined: 9/29/2005
Posts: 460
I've always felt like the Lich scenario was way easier than the Prince one, and even though the mage guy at the end of the castle in the jungle on the Lich scenario is a really slow fight due to all the summons, the castle always seemed to me like the fastest endscenario. And the Lich is just laughable as well, and you really don't need to spend alot of time healing in that fight. And even though I love this game to death I've never played it any more than just casually, so to me I wouldn't know where to start if I were to try and make a TAS of this game. I'd be lost of when to transform my characters, or if you would do it more than once. Of course stat downs and high physical damage is preferrable for speed, but you already know that. ;) I don't know the names of the characters, since I don't speak Japanese, but the Lich is the scenario with the jester and the castle in the jungle, and the prince one is the desert fortress scenario. The one with the amazongirl or thief.
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
Ok, just to see that we understand us: Characters and their stories Duran (Fighter) & Angela (Magician) - Dark Knight, Koren, Dragon; black rabite Kevin (Grappler/Boxer/Werewolf) & Charlie (Cleric) - Jester, Heath , Lich Hawk (Thief/Rogue) & Riese (Amazon /w lance) - Bigieu, Prince, Archdemon I have the last one; does that help? I don't speak japanese either, but I played the game through about a dozen tiems with translation patches.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
There's actually some question of if it'd be preferable to do the run with the translation patch on or not. There've been huge arguments over that for other games (e.g. Mother 3), though I don't think anything conclusive's been stated. Your best damage-dealing in this game comes from optimizing your physical strikes. Not only do spells and level-2/3 special techniques slow things down by pausing the action; many enemies also get automatic counterattacks if you use them. Try fighting the Darkshine Knight with spells, then do it again with just physicals; the difference is stark. Praetorius' party decision then makes sense: Kevin and Hawk have the best DPS (since they hit twice per attack), Kevin automatically gets a damage boost when he's in werewolf form, and Lise and Hawk both get spells that can hurt the enemy's defenses (though they don't stack; sounds like Hawk is along for the ride this time just based on DPS). Ordinarily you'd also use spells to boost your own strength, but Kevin gets this automatically and I think you can buy items that provide the buffs anyway. Likewise you can buy items that brand your attacks with elemental properties, which can really devastate bosses. The canonical "fast boss beatdown" party is Hawk/Lise/Kevin or Hawk/Lise/Duran (Duran can cast spells to give those elemental attributes, but his direct damage dealing is worse than Kevin's).
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
I can’t understand why on earth this game seems popular while it was released only in Japan. This game is truly a bad game for TASing. The language is Japanese you don’t like. It has too many and long cutscenes and laggy menu. The sound is bad on emulator. The battle system is worse than that of SoM1. You can’t evade magic attack. The boss strategy will be the same: just boost allies, degrade the enemy, then attack. It would seem to be boring. And you have to control multi characters, which is very difficult. The RAM addresses are variable, which annoys you. This seems unsuitable for this site. Yeah, anyway, welcome to TASVideos, praetarius3. I was thinking about TASing this game, too. I thought Carlie was the best main character because of the short Opening, no cutscene in the first cave, re-load cancel technique, which made up for her weak offense, and the weakest final boss. Plus, you don’t have to buy healing item. I planned so that I would not buy any healing item nor open item depository, though I haven’t tested it yet. Well, about your wip, you beat Machine Golems and Jewel Eater very fast. I was very surprised. But about other things, they are not optimized. Maybe this is a test run, isn’t it? You didn’t have to talk to Bon Voyage in the house when you first met him. You only had to talk to him at the yard. You should have bought two Magical Ropes for you can use one at the mana-stone-room after beating Tzenker. This mistake occurred in SDA’s run, too. I was disappointed to see it. And I suspect there is a better way to manipulate the stat cap without opening Y-menu. Another player, trangix, is making the run, too. His run is available on nicovideo and well optimized and used many techniques you don’t know, beginning with cancelling armory. He beat Full Metal Hugger before Bubble Breath. I recommend you register the site and watch it. And single segment on the real console by しんいち(Shinichi) is also available there. The time when he saved the game at the last savepoint was 5hh08mm32ss and the time when he beat the final boss was 5hh36mm45ss. I recommend you watch it, too. Also, in another video Bill and Ben were defeated before splitting up. And this technique skipping a cutscene was discovered recently. Sorry, don’t use this trick. You can’t progress normally.[/b] I know some addresses, though you may know. Here.
address			description
0x7F00C6		game_timer
0x7E2FFA		a day of the week		0:Fairy, 1:Luna, 2:Salamander, 3:Undine, 4:Dryad, 5:Jinn, 6:Gnome 
0x7E2FFB		hour  day(5-12)_night(13-15,0-4)		Note: In the Ghost Ship it seems different.
0x7E2FFC		minute(0-31)
0x7FDD1F		x-position(1)
0x7FDD23		y-position(1)
0x7FE51F		x-position(2)
0x7FE523		y-position(2)
0x7FD61F		x-position(3)
0x7FD623		y-position(3)		Note: Don’t accept these (#) as they are. They seem to be random.
0x7FEE43		offense(1)
0x7FF143		offense(2)
0x7FF443		offense(3)
0x7FEDFF		exp(1)
0x7FF0FF		exp(2)
0x7FF3FF		exp(3)
0x7E2C24		money
0x7F??F2		enemy’s HP	Note: ?? means indefinite. It is very random. :P
And I have some tips and ideas. Here. -Day time takes 288 seconds and Night time takes 192 seconds in this game. -The second Machine Golems have wind as their weakness, of course you may know as well. -Land Umber also has fire as its weakness. The animation of Flame Sabre is shorter than that of Wind Sabre. I suggest you use Flame Sabre. -Also due to the shorter animation, Flame Sabre against Count of the Evil Eye and Ice Sabre against Isabella. -Manipulate to get Papa Pot’s Claw and Demon’s Claw and use each of them against Sable Fur and the second Full Metal Hugger. -Use Demonic Wolf's Soul at the final battle, then movie end, though I haven’t tested it. edit: Sorry. Some value was wrong. I corrected them.
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
Will the final video be fun to watch? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know; I just know I want to give it my best and see it through to the end; if it should actually get accepted in the end, the better, but that's a very long time away anyway. And thanks for pointing me to those videos, I'll have a look at them later. edit: Ok, after watching that I tried to reproduce skipping drawing weapons; I got it to work twice in about 3-4 hours and then only on a specific sceen, so unless I'm missing the obvious (again) and someone can point it out to me, I'd say I'll skip it; normally drawing weapons takes about 25 frames, the "skip" I managed robbed me for 15 frames of control for 2/3 characters while the third (AI) character draws like normal; so 10 frames difference each time - would be about 2 minutes tops through the entire run? I started re-making the run from FMH on; I still can't make him skip heal light only bubble breath, time is now about 42 seconds for the fight. Link to video If that's still to slow I can as well give up. About ropes: the one was actually meant for after Tzenker, I forgot the volcano...
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Well, apart from the battle it’s improvable from the start. And you seem to use autofire at times through your wip, but it’s unfavorable. Autofire sometimes cause one frame delay. I tend to be strict about the degree of optimization especially in the game I know well, but I also know you do make efforts to make the run. It’s very difficult to make the TAS of this game. Your TASing pace is fast and re-recording counts are relatively small. Do you use some specific feature, say luascript, when you make the run? About the new battle of FMH, it’s wonderful. Almost all the audience will be satisfied that it was beaten before bubble breath. If you try to make a perfectly optimized run, it won’t be completed. Although I pointed it was improvable from the start, I suggest you first complete the run and then refine it. It is ideal that there is not any waste, say surplus goods, missing attack and so on, though it may be nearly impossible. There is a site where useful techniques are written in Japanese. Non-Japanese players don’t tend to know them, I guess. About skipping drawing weapons there are three ways. Two of them are written there. The other discovered by trangix, which Riese did in part2 of his wip as soon as she left Jyad, is not written there. There are other techniques there. Special attacks, whether it is lvl1 or lvl2/3, can be done twice successively, for example. I’ll make smvs with these useful techniques later.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
I'm pretty sure I've done special attacks more than twice in a row, though it's possible that one of the attacks missed.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Mastania
He/Him
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
neo_omegon wrote:
-Use Demonic Wolf's Soul at the final battle, then movie end, though I haven’t tested it.
You mean a Moon Coin? I know it's possible to make the battle end after the first form, but not right off the bat.
neo_omegon wrote:
There are other techniques there. Special attacks, whether it is lvl1 or lvl2/3, can be done twice successively, for example.
I'm pretty sure this is already used in the very first battle with Hawk. It's also been discovered that there's a way to have Duran use infinite techs (although it only ever seems to hit once, despite the two swings). For some reason I tried to watch this using the translation ROM -_- Things I've noticed so far (that haven't already been said): -I can't quite remember, but I think it's only necessary to talk to one person to get the fairy to appear. That one screen with the three Mushbooms can also be manipulated to have Rabites on it, which die a lot more quickly and can just be snuck past at night. Otherwise movement in general is well-optimised in terms of running as much as possible while still earning exp, and the double-character movement and attacking is a HEAP of fun to watch. -The Machine Golems get stun-locked HARD, but it could be possible to save a few frames by killing the second one nearer to the place where it explodes so it doesn't have to limp the whole way over. I'll mention everything else I can as the WIP progresses.
Waddle Waggle Wattle
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Mastania wrote:
neo_omegon wrote:
-Use Demonic Wolf's Soul at the final battle, then movie end, though I haven’t tested it.
You mean a Moon Coin? I know it's possible to make the battle end after the first form, but not right off the bat.
No. The effect of the item is Moon Sabre to everyone. If you strictly follow the TAS rule, it would be the fastest way to get a movie end, though it may be impossible and the movie may be going to look queer one.
Mastania wrote:
neo_omegon wrote:
There are other techniques there. Special attacks, whether it is lvl1 or lvl2/3, can be done twice successively, for example.
I'm pretty sure this is already used in the very first battle with Hawk. It's also been discovered that there's a way to have Duran use infinite techs (although it only ever seems to hit once, despite the two swings).
There is another way to pull a lvl1 tech twice by using L/R button. You can see it at the battle of FMH in trangix's wip on nicovideo. Performing a lvl2 tech twice seems to be longer but at the Dark Castle you have to fight a bunch of enemies. It might be useful. Evil Shaman will be annoying one. With this glitch, changing to be the class that has a tech which is whole range might be one option. Infinite techs happen at the battle of Jewel Eater, but I don't know the exact occasion, though the wip is so fast that it is not necessary.
Mastania
He/Him
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
neo_omegon wrote:
No. The effect of the item is Moon Sabre to everyone. If you strictly follow the TAS rule, it would be the fastest way to get a movie end, though it may be impossible and the movie may be going to look queer one.
Oh right, of course. So you're saying give the computer-controlled characters Moon Sabre and end all player input? That's pretty clever :O I'll check out the Japanese stuff once my connection gets back up to speed on Tuesday.
Waddle Waggle Wattle
Joined: 11/30/2008
Posts: 6
Hey I know i'm not probably going to be of much use to a tas'er but i've been playing this game for a real speed run. www.youtube.com/lynbt I came to the conclusion that the better party was Kevin, Duran, Lise. This is due to a few reasons of my choosing, such as the lack of levels leading to hawk's damage being pitiful to nothing (outside of bosses) by the time you hit golems x3. (since your wasting time if your above 13 by that time, and the str SHOULD be capped which still isn't good enough). Duran allows for monster killing/etc... Anyway stuff that I thought should be valuable to you... For some reason from my Jewel eater fight and on, I have been able to reliably trigger infinite techs, where I can repeatedly use Duran's techs (only durans). This might have to do with setting the AI to "NO TECH". Sorry I have no idea what the real cause of this infinite tech is, but if its only in that position then kevin should be able to abuse this glitch... Also, there is talk of a glitch for double hitters where you attack(hold) attack which causes a quad swing by abusing the AUTO attack script to enable then disable. Hawk is the easier person to pull this off. I mention this as it should increase your damage by a LOT. Kevin doesn't need scales for STR up (later fights) as his hit in werewolf auto casts it on him. Its a worthless endeavor. On Tzenker, just using wind saber on kevin/hawk should be enough to drop her before casting in your case. For dealing with Gorva, the best course of action might be using some SPIRIT on lise and casting the Light coins. It seems to mess with Gorva's AI and he tends to stay on the bottom more (not that you can't manip that, but its also damn good damage for the time). I am really hoping to see you micro the 3 players and be able to kill/move in ready fashion. Good luck! if you need more help I'll try to come back and check this thread out.
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