Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Ferret Warlord wrote:
Also of interest is the potential to skip portions of the game this way. You can glitch Nepto's eye into existence and skip the accompanying dungeon. I'm looking into when you can get Cid to take the time gear, which should let you get off the floating continent real quick like. If everything works out, I believe you can beat the game soon after talking to the water crystal!
You can give Cid the Time Gear as soon as you reach Canaan, I think. Because at that point he's just waiting for you to complete all of your Floating Continent quests. He then gives you a new ship (that can only land in water) and that's when you fly off to the second overworld.
Of course, it would be even better if we could somehow modify the position of the boulder on the overworld, because the only reason you need to do the Floating Continent quests at all is because your airship breaks when you exit the valley. But I'm pretty sure we won't be able to do that. :)
EDIT: you know, I wonder if it isn't much faster to just buy the potions? You can get 2000 gil in the cave when you reenter it, another 2000 in the castle, plus you can sell a ton of other free stuff from the storehouse and the Mithril Cave.
EDIT 2: just gave it a quick try. Unfortunately you can't enter the Mithril Cave's secret room until you beat Jinn. However, just getting all potions in the first cave, the first two towns and from manipulating the first battles to drop two potions each, you should get 21. Give or take one or two that I might have forgotten about. The 2000 gil from the first cave and the 2000 gil from the castle and the money you get from selling everything you own (including the South Winds and Zeus' Rage) should get you about 80 potions in total in the end. Your mileage may vary depending on how much gil you accumulate from beating enemies.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Dada wrote:
You can give Cid the Time Gear as soon as you reach Canaan, I think.
Sadly, this is not the case, it would seem. I just did some testing, and it appears you can't skip as much of the game as I thought.
1. Cid won't accept the time gear until Hyne is dead. Until then he stays in the bedroom.
2. You can't fight Hyne until you've completed the fire cave.
3. You can't get to the fire cave until you've returned the horn to the dwarves.
4. You can't get onto the horn pedestal until you've beaten Guzco. (this one really ticks me off)
5. You can't get to the dwarves until you've completed the tower of Owen.
So as far as the floating continent is concerned, the only sequence breaking you can do is skip Nepto's shrine, ignore the gurgans, and not bother returning to Argass Castle. Otherwise you're just playing the route normally. So disappointing...
I haven't tested the rest of the overworld very much yet, but it seems it'll be more complicated than I thought because I forgot that there's a strip of mountain blocking the Sylx Tower and your ship is tied down until you defeat Goldor. Hopefully the sequence is going to be sewer -> mansion -> Unne's cave -> ancient ruins -> end of game. Sadly it also appears that the statues are event driven as well; hacking all four fangs into my inventory didn't allow me to destroy any of them. I'll need to do some further testing on this.
Still, so disappointing...
As far as money is concerned: Yeah, foraging for stuff to sell would be faster than grinding for potions. We'll have to look at what can be sold, how much you get from them, and how many can be dropped in the meantime (if that's even needed). Once you have the potions handy you can spawn a stack of kaiser claws easily enough and sell those for any other monetary concerns, like the equipment you'll need to upgrade.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Ferret Warlord wrote:
Dada wrote:
You can give Cid the Time Gear as soon as you reach Canaan, I think.
Sadly, this is not the case, it would seem. I just did some testing, and it appears you can't skip as much of the game as I thought.
1. Cid won't accept the time gear until Hyne is dead. Until then he stays in the bedroom.
2. You can't fight Hyne until you've completed the fire cave.
3. You can't get to the fire cave until you've returned the horn to the dwarves.
4. You can't get onto the horn pedestal until you've beaten Guzco. (this one really ticks me off)
5. You can't get to the dwarves until you've completed the tower of Owen.
So as far as the floating continent is concerned, the only sequence breaking you can do is skip Nepto's shrine, ignore the gurgans, and not bother returning to Argass Castle. Otherwise you're just playing the route normally. So disappointing...
Ouch, that's pretty bad. A way to position that boulder, or ourselves and our first airship, sure would be great right about now. Although it seems to be impossible for now, I'm really curious as to what happens when you use the original airship (which is different from the second one which can only land in water) to fly off of the floating continent.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Okay, so, just completed the game with a glitched team. Unfortunately a lot of stuff seems event flag driven instead of item driven like I hoped. Either way, here seems to be the route.
Earth Shrine -> Seal Cave -> Road to summit -> Tozas -> Nepto's shrine (bypassed with glitched eye) -> Owen Tower (with glitched Toad spell) -> Underground Lake -> Fire Cave -> Eldest Tree -> Water Cave
Amur Sewer -> Goldor's Mansion -> Unne's Cave (with glitched lute) -> Ancient Ruins -> Cave of Darkness -> End Game (with glitched Sylx Key)
I didn't bother with fiddly bits like "Talk to Cid to get airship", or sort out any final details like party configuration and how to go about getting the needed stuff for bugging the game.
The next step would be planning how and when to do the upgrading.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Thanks for figuring all this out. It's too bad most stuff is event driven rather than item driven. I still really wonder if upgrading items is the only thing we can do with 99 potions, but for the moment it seems this is the best possible route.
Ferret Warlord wrote:
I didn't bother with fiddly bits like "Talk to Cid to get airship", or sort out any final details like party configuration and how to go about getting the needed stuff for bugging the game.
Yeah, finding the fastest way will be a little tricky. But I imagine that the fastest way is to manipulate at least around 25 potions from the Goblins, and then to fetch the rest from Ur, Kazus and Sasoon. There's 4000 gil laying around for grabs, and those South Winds and Zeus' Rage will each net you about 500 gil. I'm pretty sure the Wight Slayer is worth 500 gil too. Ideally, I'm guessing we'd have to buy 60 Potions and obtain the rest from manipulation and from collecting them around the towns. 60 Potions cost 7212 gil to buy.
Of course, could be different entirely, but that's an educated guess. You can manipulate three Potions per fight once you reenter the Altar Cave, which is 450 gil; you're not going to get so much gil any other way for the moment.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Dada wrote:
Thanks for figuring all this out. It's too bad most stuff is event driven rather than item driven. I still really wonder if upgrading items is the only thing we can do with 99 potions, but for the moment it seems this is the best possible route.
You can upgrade items, spawn kaiser claws, and bug your lead character. That's it.
It'd be nice if monsters could drop more than one of a given item. You could power through the rings and swords much faster to get the gear, eye, and swords faster.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
New tricks page is up. It's probably a little more technical than it should be, detailing the exact underpinnings that result in the glitch, but it's a start. I'll be putting together a video for Youtube with a simpler explanation focusing on the actual execution sometime later.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Sorry for the triple post, but I was thinking about the money issue. Potions are kind of expensive at this point in the game, so it would take a while gathering the needed things to sell.
However, eyedrops are about a quarter of that they cost, and there are monsters nearby that drop them. You can buy 99 almost as soon you leave the alter cave. I'm testing right now if you can't make two drop in one combat; if so, you get 99 kaiser claws which solves all monetary issues.
Potions are still preferred, though, as there are more monsters along the way that drop them. Eyedrop monster are only right at the beginning.
Edit: Yup, it most certainly is possible! Only thing left for the opening, really, is to figure out how to take down a group like that at, like, level two. Potions and the cure spell, maybe?
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
It depends on what sort of monsters drop them. You can most likely use the South Winds for it and then finish off the remaining monsters with regular (manipulated to be perfect) combat. If you can spawn 99 Kaiser Claws, you could easily buy 99 potions after that, of course.
edit: oh, of course it would probably be faster to just use up both South Winds when fighting the Landturtle guarding the crystal. But I'm pretty sure we can manipulate a battle to easily beat the group that drops two Eye Drops.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
The trouble with the eyedrops is that they are dropped by shadows and laruwais; two Southwinds isn't going to cut it. Here's my thinking:
1. In the altar cave, drop one potion and pick up two more from chests (or drop two from combat and one from chest; whichever the RNG allows), and grab both Southwinds. Beat the land turtle by stabbing him to death; the Southwinds will be useful later.
2. Change to three black mages and one red mage. Talk to the crystal for a quick restore.
3. Grab 2000 gil from altar cave.
4. In Ur, sell one potion, one Southwind, and all equipment but helmets; buy 99 eyedrops. Pick two potions up in the well.
5. Grab airship and go to seal cave.
6. With potions, take out a group of four shadows and win two eyedrops, spawning kaiser claws and upgrading leather helemt to onion.
7. Back in Ur, sell claws and buy 99 potions, some antidotes, and leather robes and copper rings.
8. Back in seal cave, use potions to fight shadows; bug lead character, upgrade antidotes to otterheads, and get onion armor and gloves. Two combats should do the trick. (*maybe* start upgrading towards an eye and time gear; maybe)
9. Pick up another Southwind. Use both against Jinn.
After that, continue bugging things on the road to the summit (Rukhs drop potions) and the hidden road (Leprechauns), and finish up in the Tower of Owen (puti mages and pygmen). I'm thinking black mages because we are going to need to fight against the leprechauns in the hidden road, and we really don't have the capacity to keep throwing job classes around. Red mage for required toading/midgeting, and backup in combat.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Well, crud. The more I poke around this game, the more I realize it isn't manipulable at all.
What determines when you fight? A step counter, which will throw you into combat whenever it reaches a set number.
What determines what you fight? A counter, that goes up by one every time you get into combat.
In other words when and what you fight is set according to a cycle. The only thing you *can* control is *how* you fight, and that's set at the beginning of combat by a few timers.
Enlightenment isn't always pleasant.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Okay, triple posting again, but this time with more research concerning my previous post.
Address $F5 is the step counter. Combat will occur when it equals the following hex values.
F1
D9
B9
70
48
3D
There may be more values for combat and will be added as I find them. Not all areas will recognize these values, thus adjusting the encounter rate in a given area. Not all areas change the counter, and some areas that do affect the counter do not have combat.
Address $F6 is the step modifier. Its format in hex is xF. If x <8, then $F5 will go up by 1 with each step. Otherwise, it will go down. Once $F5 reaches 0, x will be reassigned a new value, according to the following pattern.
F
9
3
D
7
1
B
5
Address $F7 is the battle counter. It determines what the next group of enemies will consist of (IE will you fight werewolves, or killer bees this next time?). Every time you enter combat, it increases by 1.
These values are not kept in the battery save file. This means you can reset them at will if you are in the overworld by saving and then powercycling.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Oh look, a quad post! My most sincere apologies, good people.
Address $16 (and possibly some surrounding values) appear to control random situations within battle. It is set at the beginning of combat by some timers; after that it is altered by whatever actions are carried out mid-turn; for instance, attacking may bring it up by 3. I have no idea how to interpret, though. What does it affect? How does it affect it? If I can more accurately predict where it will go, and what conditions must be met for items to drop, that would be extremely helpful, but I have no idea how to pick this one apart.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Shadow Byrn wrote:
Shame you can't get a dis-assembly and see what calls that memory spot.
Actually, FCEU does come with a disassembler/debugger. I've been poking around in it, learning a little bit about it here and there. Using it I've discovered that $15-$17 are set at the very beginning of battle by adding together all 16 values on the $F0 lineall 256 values on the first memory page and taking the last two hex digits. $17 remains constant through battle, $15 receives a few increments at the beginning, and $16 increments by some random amount whenever an action is taken. Freezing $16 is causes damage and turn order to remain consistent throughout the fight, and will occasionally pause combat until it is unfrozen. I'm still unsure how to interpret the numbers, but at least I understand there's some control there.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Well, I've unlocked the secret to getting drops in combat. It all has to do with $16. It checks for each enemy once, and if it equals a certain value, you get the drop. Some of these values are close enough together that you can get multiple drops in one combat, but you need at least three enemies to pull it off. And I don't think all values work for all monsters, in order to create different drop rates.
Either way. If $16 = #77 when the last enemy dies, and you fought at least three enemies, you get two drops. Will continue looking into it.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Hi, Ferret Warlord! Do you make Glitched run of this game? I investigated this game a little.
The contents of $F5 refer to 256 values from 0x7FE10 of the ROM. If this value is less than a value decided by an area, the enemy appears.
StepRNG = rom.readbyte(0x7FE10+memory.readbyte(0xF5))
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Thanks for the interest and help, pirohiko!
So I went and made a LUA script to help plan things out. It determines what you get as item drops for a given configuration of monsters.
saved = savestate.object()
itemaddress = 0x60C0
quantaddress = 0x60C1
for invhex = 0x60C0, 0X60FF do
memory.writebyte(invhex, 0x0)
end;
savestate.save(saved)
for rnghex = 0,0xFF do
savestate.load(saved)
memory.writebyte(0x16, rnghex)
emu.frameadvance()
item = string.upper(string.format("%02x",memory.readbyte(itemaddress)))
quant = string.upper(string.format("%02x",memory.readbyte(quantaddress)))
rng = string.upper(string.format("%02x",rnghex))
if memory.readbyte(quantaddress) ~= 0 then
emu.print("RNG = ",rng," Item = ",item," Quantity = ",quant)
end;
end;
emu.pause()
Output is follows:
RNG: The value at $16.
Item: The index of the item you get from the current enemy configuration for a given RNG.
Quantity: How much of Item you get for a given RNG.
If there are more than one type of item won, you can determine what else you get by editing itemaddress and quantaddress to point the needed inventory slots.
Example of use
You encounter three Shadows. After destroying them, you position the game to the frame right before $16 changes. Run the script. Now you know that you can get two eyedrops from a group of three shadows if $16 is #77, #FE, or #FF at the end of combat.
In order to get the output you want, you need to position the game to one frame before $16 changes! [/s]Also be sure to leave the appropriate address empty, or else you might be reading an item that's already there![/s]
Edit: Script updated so that the previous stricken notes are now no longer a concern.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Okay, let me see if I get this straight.
Lead character is dead.
All inventory slots are occupied.
Go into combat, use an item so its slot is free. Another character then unequips something to take its spot.
Win before the used item gets used.
???
Profit!
I'll check it out. Thanks!
Edit: Taking a closer look at it, it seems to be a variant of the class upgrade bug. When combat is over, it tries to drop the not-used item back in inventory by dropping it in the first empty even byte it finds, starting at $60C0. If you're an onion kid, it'll get dropped on the lead's class byte (also, your lead's level will be bumped up by one).
This leads me to ask: What was the bow that was used? If I had a movie file to work from, that'd be great.
Thanks again.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
An item used during a movie is "#50 Holy Arrows". This is available in Sassoon Castle.
The item without a place to go is delivered to the first empty even number, and next number added one.
If a leader character is Onion Kid, an item is in there. Job over #16 causes various glitch.
Useful glitched jobs
#34,#74,#B4,#F4 - 4th command causes inventory glitch.
#3E,#7E,#BE,#FE - 4th command causes inventory glitch, but it freeze if he lives since before a battle began.
#37,#77,#B7,#F7 - 2nd command ends a battle forcibly.
#50,#51,#52,#54 - When you display his status, a position changes to specific value.
#58 - When you display his status, it summons an ultimate airship flying over all. You can invade Sylx Tower directly.
#57,#59 - When you display his status, it summons an ultimate airship flying over all, but you can't change job.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Yup, just as I thought.
Alright, there's certainly potential here; however there's a few things. Firstly, using the values you've provided for getting the Invincible, I can only get an normal airship that looks like the invincible until you land it. What am I doing wrong?
Second, even if you could get the Invincible, you'd still have to go through the Cave of Darkness to get the earth fang
Third, there's the problem of class changing. You'd have to get into a ton of combat in order to get the needed capacity you need to switch out of glitch mode.
Fourth, even if it does skip massive portions of the game, there's still the question of powerleveling to answer. You'd still have to bug up a bunch of equipment, but even then there's no way your character can resist Flare Wave until, I dunno, the 20's or something. At least getting onion swords would be a much simpler proposition with the swords available later in the game.
I'm not saying this is useless, just saying that there's some concerns that need to be addressed. This is very interesting, and I look forward to exploring the potential here.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Firstly, using the values you've provided for getting the Invincible, I can only get an normal airship that looks like the invincible until you land it. What am I doing wrong?
When glitched airship looking like the Invincible lands, it changes to an invisible Cid's airship.
Gliched airship is different from the Invincible. Because it can fly over all, there is the usefulness that even landings only for once are enough for.
Second, even if you could get the Invincible, you'd still have to go through the Cave of Darkness to get the earth fang
It is not necessary to get the earth fang for my thought.
Third, there's the problem of class changing. You'd have to get into a ton of combat in order to get the needed capacity you need to switch out of glitch mode.
The capacity needed by a class change becomes 0 if I forge initial job level in glitch beforehand.
Fourth, even if it does skip massive portions of the game, there's still the question of powerleveling to answer. You'd still have to bug up a bunch of equipment, but even then there's no way your character can resist Flare Wave until, I dunno, the 20's or something. At least getting onion swords would be a much simpler proposition with the swords available later in the game.
If there is gliched job #B7, it's all right!
In fact, I have already thought about a route of glitched run.
Will you entrust me if you are all right?
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Hey, if you have a route, sure! I wasn't going to be going through with this anytime soon. Besides, I can't get what you claim some of these effects are.
Also, I just had a thought: Some of the glitched classes can forcibly exit combat. What happens when you do so during certain boss fights? I'm testing this now.
Edit: Oh this is hilarious. You can practically walk straight through the game this way!
Well, *most* of my research just proved pointless. Not all of it, though, as you can start glitching out of combat soon after you buy some mithril armor in Kazus and turn it into ice armor.
Still, exciting!
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
