1 2 3 4 5
9 10
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
I re-made basically everything, about 2800 frames less than before, so yeah worth it - up to FMH at least it was even 3k, but lack of better weapon for Hawk and a totally uncooperative RNG... Btw, so much for "guaranteed" attacks: Link to video Winning motion... I guess you mean putting weapons away? (I understand it that way because of the location) I do that with B+moving while weapons are still out, then letting go of both at the right frame; or watch input of wip above (though I limit it there only to the "runner") Danguard, why scale (atk up) there? using 1 scale costs ~300 frames/5 seconds, and each screen has only ~5k hp. You already use a claw there which gives "half" the scale anyway plus elemental damage. Land Umber (in a test) lasted for about 30 secs from appearing to death, Kevin only had flame saber (used before boss appearing), no atk up (wasn't hit) and his glitch; the other two DID hit for 1s. So adding ~5 secs for atk up will probably not even get even.
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
I watched. I can’t believe that FMH DID NOT USE HEAL LIGHT ANY MORE! Maybe, is the cause of this trick autofire? Well, I tried to beat FMH a few times a few weeks ago but I couldn’t defeat him even before bubble breath. My try will seem to be failed. The battle against Eagle was more optimized than before. Minor improvements: -Hawk became pushing motion after talking to an old woman in Astria. It is possible to talk to her from a little west. -When Priest of Light began to talk, Kevin and Hawk moved a little. It is possible to talk to him without movement. They take moving motion for a moment but it will be 5 frames faster. Similar improvements might exist but I don’t care because this version is well optimized. Especially the battle against FMH is well manipulated. It will deserve official submitting. Other interest: At the screen before the entrance of Korpokkur Woods in Rabite forest, I didn’t use weapon cancel deliberately in my wip because Carlie stopped moving along the way. But Hawk used weapon cancel and didn’t stop in your wip. Drake’s Scales: I mean that using Drake’s Scales for other two fellows not at GBs, but at Bill and Ben (1st and 2nd), 1st Gorva, Lugar and 1st Gildervine. Up to getting a Chibikko Hammer, the route and the strategy have been fixed. i.e. Fight as many as possible with stat cap abuse. Your strategy is definitely perfect. I was going to progress to Black Market then test before bringing forward. I’ll be able to buy no more than 9 Drake’s Scales if I get through without opening depository. (Sorry, I’ve been overwriting depository as inventory.) It’s a long way off so I’ll take more time to think my strategy. Maybe I should study English before TASing.
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
about FMH: it seems like you have to keep the game busy with attacking/many numbers flying up, moving too; B-button seemed less cpu-intensive than A-button in fact - and the poison was actually helpful for that as well. I don't know the exact specifics, but trust me when I say I tried a lot of different things. Amongst others, I tried using only rapid-fire-A-button on both -> FMH casted heal light; so far it's more trial-and-error than anything else. Btw another "proof" that magic would fail - it would give enough time to set enemy status to casting. Admittedly I wouldn't have even tried to skip heal light, if I wouldn't have walked accidently into the wrong door in the debug room (talk about coincidence) - a full-glitched kevin walks into the FMH-chamber, I was 100% certain FMH would be set to casting state when Kevin hits him below 350 HP with the first hit from his tech; he wasn't. Drake scales (or claws too if applicable): pre-glitch I would use them on the physically stronger non-Kevin character as well - in your case Riesz; those boss fights will be serioulsy still long-ish and he still is NOT 99% of your total power, more like 50%. Hawk vs Charlie (as lead): Charlie's path (judging from our both wips) takes about 7k frames less up to joining with the 2nd character, plus the additional npc-charlie-is-blocking-your-way-again-dialog; (as a sidenote Hawk's intro is about 1.2k frames shorter than Riesz's if I remember right) this however should be calculated against what Hawk is better(?) suited for a TAS: +1 str, double hit (however takes 10 frames longer than single-hit); enddungeon not included yours should be about 7-8k frames faster? But then I wouldn't play on the supposedly harder "difficulty". (most say Charlie/Kevin - easy, Duran/Angela - medium, Hawk/Riesz - hard) my shopping list: 7x earth saber - 2 Tzenker, 4 Dangaard, 1 Tzenker2 6x ice saber - 2 Genova, 1 Xan Bie, 1 Genova2, 2 Bigieu 3x fire saber - 1 Land Umber, 1 Fiegmund, 1 Jagan 3x thunder saber - 2 Golem2, 1 Mospolm 8x atk up - 1 Bill&Ben, 1 Bill&Ben2, 1 Gorva, 1 Lugar, 1 Gildervine, 1 Lightgazer*, 1 FullMetalHugger2* 1 Archdemon** *don't recall any enemies that drop the demon's claw till then (dark saber) nor any that do later **or 2x moon saber - from carmilla , moon tower has no weaknesses, only reflects based on color in first form and absorbs half the elements in 2nd form
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
According to nJOY, a Japanese walkthrough site, Dark Lord drops demon’s claw. He also drops ??? seed, weapon & armor seed and stardust herb so it'll take a while to get the claw. I started to suspect that Moon Sabre might be slow. From waiting the appearance of the chestbox to start re-walking via getting the item, it took 366 frames according to the frames of my getting a dreamsee herb. I think the bosses pre-glitch where you can use claw (means Tzenker, Genova and Golem2) 1 claw is enough. In both single segments I mentioned, they also buy 1 against each these bosses. There are many mandatory battles where you can’t run away in Mirage Palace, so to retrieve glitched Kevin, dreamsee herbs are necessary. I’ll probably use 4 herbs. At least 2 herbs are definitely necessary. I can adjust the number of herbs I get before meeting Flammie. EDIT: About keeping the game busy: It may be a specific trick of Hawk and Kevin because of their double attack. It might be a little difficult on snes9x v1.43 since I heard the lag on v1.43 was less than that on v1.51. I may restart on (J) rom because I remember Carlie’s idiom is very, very specific. It’s very funny. Everyone here will feel regret but this game was released only in Japan so Japanese audience is strongly longing for a TAS of this game. EDIT2: Null-input(s), B(1frame), direction key(1frame) then holding A is sometimes slightly faster than null-input(s) then direction key + holding A. (At the beginning of the screen) If you can’t use weapon cancel, delaying screen transition enable you to use it.
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Up to before str. glitch. -> http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1184338731/SD3j%203p%20imp1.smv This time, used 3-player controllable patch and improvement patch. (Add header before patching.) Sorry, the language is Japanese. Of course, not to be submitted. Comments: -I succeeded making the old lady move to a better position in Astoria. -I got through with better luck manipulation in Rabite Forest. I took damage only once. -When I dashed into the battle, B-button was not necessary to skip a weapon drawing animation. I should have not pressed B. -My Wendel part is slightly faster and entertaining. I made 2P set back to computer at times. (Not only when the beginning of the new BGM.) I also reduced the load of the movement of the camera. And when I entered the temple, I entered the border of the entrance. It saved 1 frame. These might not be faster because of other luck manipulations. Where I’m going to use a dreamsee herb: -As soon as I get to the harbor of Palo so as to reach Black Market at night. I’m not going to stay INN in Maia. It’s advantage of the 3-player controllable patch. -At desert or snowfield. -On the way to the 5th GB in order to make night again and reach Pedan in morning. (I edited many times. I was badly disorderd.) -4 times in Mirage Palace. So 7 herbs are necessary but it seems superior. I’ve not tested at all. And I may use before Ghost Ship to get through there at night and before River Bank Cave for it might be hard to beat enemies there. I’ll be able to get 4-7 herbs in the Waterfall cave. Then I’ll manipulate at Road to the Heavens if they are lacking. I'm concerned about Trangix's progress. EDIT: finished encoding. -> http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm12957729
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
One thing I've been wondering for some time now: where do we actually need Riese's stat-downs? I'd say only for the last two bosses - MAYBE. Everything before is either vulnerable to some claws/saber we have access to or so low def -20% isn't notable. Apart from Bigieu, all those last bosses take full damage from lightning (and then there would be the buyable specters eye to remove her absorption), so thunder jutsu would work on them. Just some food for thought.
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
In your case, Duran might be better. In my case, if the trick of keeping the game busy doesn’t work with Riese, Hawk may be better. Hawk’s double normal attack is his merit and itself is his demerit. It takes more time. And IIRC, Hawk’s attack will be cheaper from around desert if he doesn’t change the class. He gives only 10x2 damage against Ballette. Riese gives 30 damage. Yet both will be no longer an attacker after Mana Holy Land. BTW, maybe we should concentrate on one run for submitting. It’s very difficult and long game. I’m ready for giving up my run anytime. If you’d like to start Carlie’s quest for submitting, I’ll give up my run or I’ll finish my run in suboptimal level soon for a test run. EDIT: I lost 3 frames when I was blown away by the gate of the cave. EDIT2: My battles were not optimal at all. I gained about 90 frames to beat first 5 Battums. I have to redo. And in both single segments they bought weapons before Ghost Ship. We need consider it.
Joined: 11/30/2008
Posts: 6
well you can weight SS' as you want, but I assure you that as a TAS you shouldn't rely off SS knowledge. I only bought the weapons before heading out to Genova, Bill&Ben, etc. And then don't buy them again til ice field. Killing on the island is rediculously slow (birds that have double HP, the eggs of the enemies and so on...) so I just avoid it at all costs.. While my run is not finished from the real point of view, the planning and all that I finished. If you guys can perform the double attack glitch with kevin/hawk all the time, they are probably the best. As for scales, they are really good for duran only, as his weapons and str count is soo high already. Def down is there to help out Hawk more and so on. So if your going to skip using Reisz for her stat down, hawk is going to suffer for a long time and Duran might be your man.
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Thanks, RaneofSoTN. Well, Hawk, Kevin and Duran are probably the best member. And in Mirage Palace it takes much time to change the screen. And considering mandatory battles where they can’t run away, Hawk’s quest may be faster. Just a screen transition retrieves glitched Kevin instead of using a dreamsee herb. Yet I’ll continue with Carlie, Kevin and Riese to show a different feature. Praetarius3 or Trangix will show Hawk/Riese’s route. BTW, Hex-edit doesn’t work even in Wendel so NPCs seem to affect. Battle Tips: When I beat an enemy, A, holding A, A + holding direction key and holding A + holding direction key cause different results. I try them all and choose the best result. When I win a battle, holding direction key makes enemy’s disruption slow. So if you get a chestbox, you should avoid holding direction key during enemy’s disruption. EDIT: I should not have collected dreamsee herbs. It loses many frames when I use fairy’s power because I have to shift a ring command. I have to redo at the beginning of the cave again.
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Keeping the game busy does work with every character against non-Boss, too. -> http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm13045530
Joined: 11/30/2008
Posts: 6
neo_omegon wrote:
EDIT: I should not have collected dreamsee herbs. It loses many frames when I use fairy’s power because I have to shift a ring command. I have to redo at the beginning of the cave again.
Each inventory is tracked separately. Just use someone else's and you'll be fine. There is a reason I never open the menu in my run with duran. The second I do it'll track him in the item inventory. If you haven't used the menu with a character yet it'll auto spawn on the alternate sprite menu. see here: http://www.youtube.com/user/lynbt?feature=mhum#p/u/30/jj9IH-6tuzc @ 2:20ish. I just walk to the trigger and b/c duran hasn't used the menu yet it defaults to faerie and i get by quickly. This makes duran my "sprite" user.
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
I didn’t use any item but both characters’ menu didn’t default to fairy. As a result of redoing, I gained a few frames at Wendel. I’ll catch up in a few days but thanks. Ring Menu in scenes: -Due to a little auto-movement in the scenes main character should use fairy in WaterFallCave and Jinn before Laurent. -When a character leaves at Ghost Ship, his/her menu defaults to magic. If they don’t learn any magic, it defaults to item. I’m going to make Carlie leave there though I’ve not tested the battle against Gorva at all. So I have to postpone collecting the herbs until someone uses Wisp before Dwarf Village. -In Carlie/Kevin’s quest someone has to use Mirror of Illusions so their menu should be made to be set item.
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
I got Carlie to move 5 pixels toward the east with letting off B one frame while pressing left and then holding B+right before the event. It was faster because of the reduction of the auto-movement. (Note: Kevin looks toward the north but his position is optimal.) EDIT: I progressed just before FMH. Up to there, I took over 30k rerecords. (For those who read this first, my smv will sync with 3-player controllable and improvement patch. I make the run just for fun and I’m not going to submit.) Why did I take too many rerecords? The length of frames you hold A affect when you attack. And I tried both order of the weapon cancel(1P -> 2P and 2P -> 1P) when they couldn’t cancel at the same frame. I sometimes got Carlie to attack and sometimes didn’t. When Kevin could use lv1 tech, I tried both lv1 tech and normal attack then I adopted the faster way. And the frame is different according to where you exit the screen by pixels. So I had no choice but to take too many rerecords. I was able to use stat cap abuses without a missing attack. The boss battle will be hard with Carlie who is not a good attacker. I may not be able to beat him before bubble breath. If there is an improvement, please tell me. @praetarius3 I thought Hawk should have bought a weapon at Astoria. Hawk is a good attacker. It will probably save times in the long run.
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Sorry for triple post but I was so lucky that I could defeat FMH before bubble breath even with Carlie. -> http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1066412307/SD3j%203p%20imp3.smv I used infinite attacks not only by L/R but also by START. Beating him fast is probably one of the hardest parts in the run especially with weak attacker. I have never beaten him before his breath on test play but I overcame it. Some may dislike autofire but it doesn’t seem to cause lag but contributes to better luckmanipulation in this game.
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
neo_omegon wrote:
I thought Hawk should have bought a weapon at Astoria. Hawk is a good attacker. It will probably save times in the long run.
I honestly disagree; buying + equipping the weapon costs ~1200 frames/20 seconds; this weapon only matters for two fights: FMH and Golems, afterwards it's already time for dwarf village weapons FMH: on comparing tries i was about 5 seconds slower Golems: with weapon they took in an admittedly unoptimized fight less than 30 seconds, not having the weapon of the weaker attacker won't make it 15 seconds longer and sorry for not posting in quite some time, i haven't had too much time the last few weeks (which is why i'm still on the ship ride away from the prison currently)
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
Basically up to right before golem Boss, just wanted to check if I have made any obvious mistakes before I start wrecking the boss fight. And a happy new year to all!
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Happy new year, too!
praetarius3 wrote:
Basically up to right before golem Boss, just wanted to check if I have made any obvious mistakes before I start wrecking the boss fight. And a happy new year to all!
It’s nice to see a progress. I was concerned two things just after a quick watch. -I thought swapping roles of Hawk and Kevin in jail because of the reduction of the movements of the camera though the length of text messages or something else should be considered. -I avoid displaying “miss” in my wip for better looking though the result may be the same. I was a little concerned.
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
Swapping them... didn't work for me, the camera seems to move at "variable" speed depending on where you are, so it would take x frames if I start the event the way I did it, and still the same x frames if I would have had the camera up there; either that, or my counting is severly off. I "accept" misses as long as they mean I don't lose either time (normally) or whatever is currently more important at that moment (like preventing FMH's attacks or getting that str-up I shouldn't be able to)
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
I bleached out my inputs during Heal Light animation of my FMH fight in my wip by hex-edit but it caused desynchronization. So inputs even during magic/special attacks must affect RNG though I don’t know the exact address of RNG.
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
I'd say EVERYTHING affects the RNG: -timing/time/game time/play time -number and type of buttons pushed ( e.g. "<" is different from ">" ) -other remainder in the RAM (character stats, monster stats, positioning, basically everything we see (and lots more of stuff we don't see), etc) at least this explain for me why certain patches get so different results (a monster's name displayed in (J) is different from that in the (E) patch, which might be one of many things included in the "calculation of randomness" though there actually seem to be multiple/different RNGs: for example the chest I opened in the last wip: I opened it at the first possible frame with just A: got an item I didn't want; with changing "how" I opened it at the first frame I only could decide whether I get it trapped or not, but the item refused to change, a few frames later I had the same problem but with a different item
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
I wrote:
If you reach Forthena at night, you only have to talk this girl at the pub in order to make the cannon appear. It might be faster but you have to use a Dreamsee Herb before you get a Chibikko Hammer when you progress the game at a normal or a little faster pace.
I was stupid. I finally understand it’s slower because you have to fight against Golems in daytime and use a dreamsee herb at Palo. In the first place, I was wrong because I thought Golems’ first Drill Missiles were able to be dodged. So I planned on not healing from Jad to Golems in order to reach Forthena in daytime. But I was totally wrong. And I thought getting one dreamsee herb and using a Gold Statue at jail and the herb instead of staying at INN. But you can’t run away at the first battle screen in Jado. So it’s slower. (I feel at ease because I don’t have to redo WaterFallCave.)
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
I progressed up to just before Golems fight. Kevin and Riese got lvl just before Cleft of the Earth. I think it is an advantage. I didn’t take much time for a 3-player controllable run but it doesn’t look bad, imo. I’d like to show what a 3 player controllable run would be like. Ah, I saw an odd thing. Positioning players on the exact position before the event is sometimes slower though I just confirmed at Cleft of the Earth.
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
I'm curious as to why you haven't gotten any dream herbs yet. The waiting time for the chest would be same now or later, but in the case of later we might have to fight enemies just to get the herbs instead of possibly just ignoring them. edit: fun times - I'll have TWO lvl ups during golems, one which I have to manipulate, yay. edit2: or rather could have; both Kevin and Riesz would gain enough exp to lvl after one golem dies, somehow I currently managed a double-kill more or less same time as one very first try back then WITH a new weapon for Hawk, but still more misses than I'd like note. Riesz gets still exp from BOTH bosses despite being dead at the end, normally it should only be from the 2nd afaik
Player (159)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
I thought it was necessary to beat 3 enemies to use str. glitch but 2 enemies seem to be enough for Kevin according to my wip and your wip though I don’t know in other situations.
praetarius3 wrote:
I'm curious as to why you haven't gotten any dream herbs yet.
It’s because the ring menu in events. In Carlie’s quest 2 characters’ ring menu should be made to be set sprites while 1 character’s menu should be made to be set item.
I wrote:
Ring Menu in scenes: -Due to a little auto-movement in the scenes main character should use fairy in WaterFallCave and Jinn before Laurent. -When a character leaves at Ghost Ship, his/her menu defaults to magic. If they don’t learn any magic, it defaults to item. I’m going to make Carlie leave there though I’ve not tested the battle against Gorva at all. So I have to postpone collecting the herbs until someone uses Wisp before Dwarf Village. -In Carlie/Kevin’s quest someone has to use Mirror of Illusions so their menu should be made to be set item.
Player (112)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
Ok, I tried to make the golem fight better, but every attempt so far either knocks them even further away from the center or doesn't give a str up for kevin; on one try I actually had the golems down to 0 HP faster, somewhat good aligned for their explosion and the str-up, but ultimately lost ~200 frames because the game couldn't show all damage numbers.... so I'll seemingly have to let it stay this way. Is it just a problem I have/had, or is it "impossible" to switch characters during that fight? Both characters involved are then "stunned" for quite some time, which is why I have to bear Riesz doing... well nothing at all. Golem x3 will probably be the hardest fight to male; -three of them to keep in place -6 hits to connect and make to not miss for each button push -negate not one but three bosses their spells At least I won't have to watch where I kill them.... my setup will be: Hawk - fairy/sprites Kevin - items Riesz - spells; will be left behind on the ship were it 4 ropes? tzenker, fire stone, 2x enddungeon? or did I forget one again? dream herbs: -one for fire/ice region -one during gbs* -one for enddungeon any more? *alternatively? landing in moon forest to reset timer and then going away again immediatly, costs ~1050 frames + how much I'd be off the current path dream herb: 410 frames + obtaining it should be better 99% of times
1 2 3 4 5
9 10