Ok, I tried to make the golem fight better, but every attempt so far either knocks them even further away from the center or doesn't give a str up for kevin; on one try I actually had the golems down to 0 HP faster, somewhat good aligned for their explosion and the str-up, but ultimately lost ~200 frames because the game couldn't show all damage numbers.... so I'll seemingly have to let it stay this way.
Or you’ll give up str. glitch or redo with a different EXP chart. Did you try keeping the game busy trick? You can use Input Macro Editor to input like “<^v^>” repeatedly.
praetarius3 wrote:
Is it just a problem I have/had, or is it "impossible" to switch characters during that fight? Both characters involved are then "stunned" for quite some time, which is why I have to bear Riesz doing... well nothing at all.
I think 1P and 2P’s positions are related to the character’s action controlled by computer.
praetarius3 wrote:
Golem x3 will probably be the hardest fight to male;
-three of them to keep in place
-6 hits to connect and make to not miss for each button push
-negate not one but three bosses their spells
At least I won't have to watch where I kill them....
I think the first Golems fight is difficult than the second fight. The first attacks at the second fight are able to be evaded and you don’t have to defeat them at the very exact position like the center of the bridge. Sabred and boosted Kevin gives many damages. Each of his lvl1 tech gives ~160x2 damages. Unless you use str. glitch, it won’t be so difficult.
Ring menu in routine seems different from that in events.
My set up:
Carlie: spells/sprites(only Jinn from now)
Kevin: items/items(Mirror of Illusions)
Riese: spells(?)/sprites(Wisp and from Tropical Island)
Item user can’t move so Riese’s routine menu might be set to be items.
praetarius3 wrote:
were it 4 ropes?
tzenker, fire stone, 2x enddungeon?
or did I forget one again?
I think so(4 ropes). In my case, 2.
praetarius3 wrote:
dream herbs:
-one for fire/ice region
-one during gbs*
-one for enddungeon
Yes. Mine will be the same. And I wonder if plus one before Ghost Ship in order to fight against Gorva at night if it’ll save time.
In my case, I was going to get through Mirage Palace with 4 herbs at first but I may be able to do with 1.
And thanks for frame testing.
What i meant with impossible to switch characters was, that both involved characters stopped to move/respond for quite some time.
and not getting str is right out for:
a) time reasons until (at least) lvl 10; the gain now would be extremely smaller than what i lose time in total until then; just think of the enemies up to jewel eater, those have way higher def than now, and the exp/money is badly needed
b) the simple viewer question "why didn't he?"
My golem fight. Wolf form of Kevin seems to give damages only by pushing. It's odd.
I had to give up end up displaying “miss”es.
Feel free to criticize.
Sorry, for my bad English.
I saw you were able to (ab)use auto attack in that fight; whenever i tried that the character did nothing at all...
although I think the biggest problem/reason for problems in that fight are actually the many npcs around, thats why I tried to stay in the middle as much as possible...
about your fight, the only "flaw" i saw was that charlie just stands around, but that's just me as a viewer
I know my work is far from perfect; with 4096 possible input combinations per player and frame or in my case 16.777.216 possibilities per frame all of which have more or less noteable influence on RNG and by that on everything, chances are very good that there is a combination that is better (both time-wise and keeping the str-up).
i tried for about 9-10 hours since uploading the last wip to get the fight a few frames faster, and i didn't; so i guess i'll move on...
I switched Carlie back to computer so she got rigid. You are right. She became invincible against any physical attacks in that battle since I did during her lvl1 tech.
I think too many attacks in short time tend to be “miss”es and Carlie’s attack is weak so that isn’t a big problem.
Saving for TASing this game is that emulator is not desynchable. Mupen64 is very desynchable. And with analog stick, TASing n64 games is much more difficult, imo.
BTW, I’ll stop progress of my wip around Palo. I was going to collect dreamsee herbs around Laurent area but to think of the number of cursor movements of the ring menu, it might be postponed after Black Market though perfection looks nearly impossible. (Of course, I have to do plenty of testing from there.)
Hello big mole!
Who needs Kevin, Hawk owns!
With the dwarven weapons Hawk has as much attack as Wolf Kevin (both 44), at least until I glitch Kevin his 8 str (so both have same str, but kevin has his wolf bonus), at least it *should* put kevin ahead, but it doesn't because he lvls in wolf form - at least THIS exact bug will be the driving power behind the 2nd half of the game.
Fixing that via menu is out, as that is slow as hell and there is only 1 boss until the next weapons.
So I'll have to see when I'll buy the next weapon, as soon as I get there or rather after I get the hammer; it totally depends on when Kevin will have his next lvl.
That's quite an important decision as those weapons will have to last for 4(!) bosses (Tzenker, Gorva, Genova, Bill/Ben) + their dungeons & the ways to them,
and the entire volcano/island dungeon.
Btw, I am now ~8050 frames ahead of my first try and already have all 3 herbs instead of only 1, so it's more like 9k frames in the end.
and, while trying to get Hawks str... I somehow managed to have him run despite being in battle and w/out autoattack, I could run freely into any direction I wanted; and now the problem...
I stopped the movie to make a copy of the smv file so I could later "read" how I did that, let's just say I wasn't 100% awake and forgot to check "read-only mode"...
Goodbye big mole ,we didn't knew you for long.
Link to video
2,2x the health of FMH but roughly same time? Good enough for me.
Comments?
~16,5 seconds faster then first try, gods what have i done
edit:
just so i remember right, having hawk AND riesz (or in general both characters of same story) adds more "personal" dialog instead of generic comments, right?
Keep up the good work!
I can't contribute with much but I'm looking forward for this TAS!
Thanks for the comments.
praetarius3 wrote:
With the dwarven weapons Hawk has as much attack as Wolf Kevin (both 44), at least until I glitch Kevin his 8 str (so both have same str, but kevin has his wolf bonus), at least it *should* put kevin ahead, but it doesn't because he lvls in wolf form - at least THIS exact bug will be the driving power behind the 2nd half of the game.
Fixing that via menu is out, as that is slow as hell and there is only 1 boss until the next weapons.
Ah, I was blown my head. I’ve not noticed it. It had occurred in my wip, too. I have to think redoing because with one more str. Kevin can beat each of Zombies and Porons with fewer hits. This bug should be known by RTAtttackers, too. They are probably plagued by the same problem.
This bug seems to be avoided by moving on another screen before Kevin’s lvl up. So I’ll buy weapons at the first visit of Palo.
About your run, in that cave Hawk is better character especially when he is the main character than any other characters.
And exellent job of the battle against JE!
praetarius3 wrote:
just so i remember right, having hawk AND riesz (or in general both characters of same story) adds more "personal" dialog instead of generic comments, right?
Generally speaking, it’s right but it depends on the characters and the scenes. (e.g. Angela and Carlie at the bridge of Cleft of the Earth.)
Ah, I was blown my head. I’ve not noticed it. It had occurred in my wip, too. I have to think redoing because with one more str. Kevin can beat each of Zombies and Porons with fewer hits.
I don't think you should; from you last upload you'd have to re-do ~6k frames, that includes the golem fight; sure, you'd have a even stronger Kevin for that, but the fight seems so good currently, it will 97% backfire on you. And the dwarf weapons are just around the corner anyway...
So... next is a "boring" part; the next interesting part (for me) will be Bill/Ben; there we'll see how powerful AI-ignorance really can be:
skipping *time-freezing* techs/spells (so far bubble breath, heal light, power strike(the move where j.e. moves across the screen) and guard up) is nice but still manageable; the game seems to wait for the "all clear, start"-type signal
"active" skills like Bill/Bens splitting into two doesn't freeze time, so it'll be more interesting (for me at least)
You can speak to this corobokkle from the bottom floor. Please don’t forget to use this trick.
EDIT: I checked GBs’ HP though you may have already searched. GBs’ defence is written on this website.
Dreamsee herbs:
Ah, I’m going to buy armors for Carlie and Riese at Mintos after Mana Holy Land though it may not be necessary. If you are not going to visit Mintos, one more dreamsee herb is probably necessary.
first value would be per scene, second total hp
armor might be useful to have kevin survive; he needs to get hit for his +25% atk buff; with just base armor this will get ugly especially for many forced fights until boss (fire gb)
since i can't read that, i tried a translator...
did i decipher that right? (first column p.def the other two def against int/spr?)
land umber
136 160 160 167 180 180 180
dangaard
123 145 145 151 163 163 164
figmund
129 151 151 158 170 170 170
xan bie
134 157 157 164 176 176 177
Lightgazer
101 118 118 124 133 133 134
Dolan
131 154 154 161 173 173 174
Mispolm
113 133 133 139 150 150 150
just a little math:
hp growth in % is for all the same:
twice 7%, 3x 6% and last 3%
def growth is similar
17-18% after first, 4% after third, 8% next and the odd +1 def for only some bosses as last
order highest to lowest
hp: thunder wood light ice moon fire earth
def: earth fire moon ice thunder wood light
if light and thunder would be switched around on one chart these orders would be perfectly reverse; and given a non-broken Kevin that would make them all roughly equally though
as a first thought, order should be close to the hp order i wrote (since with broken kevin we can ignore def and go for highest hp first)
fire thunder* moon/light wood ice earth?
fire, because i'm basically already there + most mandatory fights
moon as 3rd to get night again, or if still sufficient time light then moon
*i'd rather do light or moon here, cause i have no weakness to work with there, but moon is needed to reset night, and light for the claw as 3rd
edit again...
earth has a bug where some enemies remain at 28, which i'd find rather useful there (can finish them faster/at all in time)
and i'll still have to think of flight distances between them...
I would rather prefer no-death in my run though it might be arbitrary and impossible, so I’d like to buy armors for them.
Armors upgrade:
-Sultan/Erland (for Kevin)
-Mintos* (for Carlie and Riese)
*Kevin doesn’t change the class so his armor can’t be upgraded.
My weapons upgrade from now on:
-Dwarf Village
-Palo
-Sultan/Erland
And a weapon at Diorre only for Kevin might be considered.
GBs’ HP:
Unless you defeat Dangaard later, total damages you have to give are not so different.
praetarius3 wrote:
earth has a bug where some enemies remain at 28, which i'd find rather useful there (can finish them faster/at all in time).
earth has a bug where some enemies remain at 28, which i'd find rather useful there (can finish them faster/at all in time).Nice discovery!
i thought that was one of the most known bugs here...
at least it always annoyed me when playing this game to find low lvl enemies after a screen with 40s or so
weapons :
-dwarf: (obvious since i have them) - else i couldn't kill many enemies and lose tons of exp
-wind kingdom: 4 bosses + dungeons, not more to say
-fire/ice region: "only" 3 bosses/regions (3x golems, bill/ben 2nd, lugar)
-Dior (elf village): definitly must, cuts down repetitions of glitching Kevin's atk by 2 or 3; if not for time measures, DEFINITLY for entertainment (seeing the same thing repeated exactly the same for ten repetitions is boring, going for 12 is even worse)
-last might be in the illusion town Pedan, at least for Hawk/Riesz; still undecided on that one, but definitly no weapons in between gbs
armor... last chance for kevin would be fire/ice town?, i think i'll not buy them
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
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praetarius3 wrote:
since i can't read that, i tried a translator...
did i decipher that right? (first column p.def the other two def against int/spr?)
If that's the really case then it's kind of interesting, because no regular enemy in the game has higher than 61 MDef, and some of the GB's really pile it on.
praetarius3 wrote:
as a first thought, order should be close to the hp order i wrote (since with broken kevin we can ignore def and go for highest hp first)
Honestly, with the type of damage output you'll be getting, you might save more frames by minimizing overworld flight time instead.
Honestly, with the type of damage output you'll be getting, you might save more frames by minimizing overworld flight time instead.
that's definitly possible, that's why i said fire first, it's simply a walk of a couple screens down from where we start then (that there are already the most forced fights of any gb is a welcome addition for that decision)
from there wind is afaik closest (what a nice coincidence), then light (ummm hello, wth?), moon is quite close too from there, so far it fits?
then earth - ice - wood instead of wood ice earth
fire - wind - light - moon - earth - ice - wood
map
When it comes to maps, vgmaps have plenty of clean maps.
praetarius3 wrote:
weapons :
...
-last might be in the illusion town Pedan, at least for Hawk/Riesz; still undecided on that one, but definitly no weapons in between gbs
If you buy a weapon at Pedan, you’ll have to set up glitched Kevin again for the ring menu of the weapon defaults to Kevin’s when you buy. Sorry, I was totally wrong.
My GB order is:
Wind – Moon – Light – Fire – Ice – Earth – Wood
(It will be way off in the future and is not tested enough.)
I’m going to set up glitched Kevin before visiting Beast Kingdom. According to my test with savestate abuses, which is not optimal at all, Dangaard battle took much time. (Not the battle itself but the cutscene.) I couldn’t fight next GB at night. So the second was Moon. Then light where I can’t use sabres.
Next three are changeable. There is not much time before Xan Bie use magic so they should be defeated earlier. If I couldn’t defeat Land Umber before their magic, Ice should be later. Last is Wood. Even if I fight against Mispolm earlier, I won’t defeat them before their tentacle attack (Apart from using keeping the game busy trick). With running away from tentacle, their high HP will not be the matter.
As far as time management, this order works perfect. I used a dreamsee herb on the way to 5th GB then I could reach Pedan in the morning. I think reaching Pedan in the morning is more important than any other things. I don’t mind the flight distances. It seems odd while I mind pixel optimizations in my wip.
Ah, I’m thinking I keep night through GBs. It might be wrong in the first place.
If you buy a weapon at Pedan, you’ll have to set up glitched Kevin again for the ring menu of the weapon defaults to Kevin’s when you buy.
Can't you hold L or R to have a different character talk to the storekeeper?
Ah, you’re right. Just talking to a shopkeeper not by Kevin works fine. Sorry, I was totally wrong. I must think my strategy from zero.
Well, when I see RTA, I think I need Riese. Riese’s attack is shorter and probably strong around desert. But when I see praetarius3’s wip, I think I need Hawk. Hawk’s double attacks are stronger in the early and middle part of the game and probably make the keeping the game busy trick easy to be done. I’m falling between two stools.
Well, before someone points out that this is remarkably similar to the traveling salesman problem, as in exactly that but with non-constant "distances" (actual flight distance + fight time for bosses, the later increases at different rates for each boss) and therefore even worse, how about more present problems?
fire or ice first?
after getting the flute visiting fire and ice then going to the moon forest looks like a full circle to me, so i think fire; weapon shop is there right on the way, for ice i don't actually "enter" the village
is it possible to replicate the kevin glitch with a rope about 10 minutes ago? (for the curious my answer is no; optional ropes are ironically better programmed than the mandatory drum)
can/will we break the stat cap? if no, do we still need lvls?
or even before that: in which order to visit the houses in the corobokkle village?
c - b - a - d -e?
having the gb order ready is all nice and good, but thats realistically half a year away or more; i'd rather spent investigation time on something thats more tangible
note: if i buy the weapon with hawk and do not open the dialog for buying a kevin weapon it should be ok
edit. need to write faster sometimes
Hawk vs Riesz:
i'll admit, so far i'm biased towards Hawk:
stat-downs are only really useful for the last two bosses of any storyline, everthing before that dies too fast against Kevin, by that time Hawk should have his stat-downs ready
in my wip he comes off like a 2nd Kevin so far (at least until Bill/Ben), and who could have enough Kevins around?
though i have to say that his double-attacks back-fire in the 2x golem fight; the game is for what ever reasons close to it's limit there (double boss, many npcs, event...), so the double hits disable switching character there (though that happens always when i'm skipping ai anyway)
though there's still much unclear:
if we can go beyond the str-cap -> Hawk all the way
if not: desert up to pre-gb will be debateable
gb-time doesn't matter since that is Kevin's prime (max atk, but enemy def will rise still)
in my case it's better to have both around, i can't def-down bigieu with hawk, and bigieu isn't exactly a light-weight on def and hp
though if you only need a single hit riesz is obviously better (like when starting auto-atk running), therefore a good "walker"-character (but you have charlie for that i guess)
A bit further
some notes:
-Kevin disappoints right now, especially w/out night; need the new weapons asap to unglitch his atk; timing of buying those is a no-concern as his next lvl up would be during the day anyway
- ~170700; I've got no idea why I can't walk with Kevin to the next room; though it doesn't matter (much) as i have to wait for the exp a bit anyway
-in the room before that i once had Kevin frozen in his transformation animation; totally useless (information) but who knows
-something "new": on the top of this very page i mentioned something that occured while glitching hawk last time; i managed a first step (bad pun!) towards that; seen towards the end of the wip above (room after golden statue in forcena, 176k frame)
This bug seems to be avoided by moving on another screen before Kevin’s lvl up. So I’ll buy weapons at the first visit of Palo.
About your run, in that cave Hawk is better character especially when he is the main character than any other characters.
And exellent job of the battle against JE!
EDIT: I checked GBs’ HP though you may have already searched. GBs’ defence is written on this website.
Dreamsee herbs:
Ah, I’m going to buy armors for Carlie and Riese at Mintos after Mana Holy Land though it may not be necessary. If you are not going to visit Mintos, one more dreamsee herb is probably necessary.
