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Posted: 2/14/2011 6:20 AM
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Sir_VG
He/Him
Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
Which version should we use?
NTSC 0-00. The original with the least amount of glitch/sequence break corrections.
Do we go for real time or game time?
I would say real time, but I don't care either way.
Do we start with a save file to allow cutscene skip?
Since other games on here don't use save files to skip cutscenes on NG runs (Aria of Sorrow, for instance), the NG run should follow the same rule and start from a clean save. Save the save file for Hard mode.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 2/16/2011 2:45 AM
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Paraxade
Joined: 11/13/2007
Posts: 30
petrie911 wrote:
There isn't a single version difference that doesn't make NTSC 0-00 faster.
http://www.metroid2002.com/version_differences_power_bombing_omega_pirate.php http://www.metroid2002.com/version_differences_power_bombing_troopers.php Of course, these don't come even remotely close to anywhere near making NTSC 0-00 slower... but still. Regarding cutscenes: I'd personally prefer cutscenes being skipped. Watching cutscenes is almost never entertaining. But I'm not familiar with the rules and precedents around here, and it's not a big deal either way, mostly because most of the cutscenes aren't skippable anyway. :|
Posted: 2/16/2011 8:46 AM
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Graveworm
Former player
Joined: 9/29/2005
Posts: 460
I would not recommend picking up the Ice spreader, it mostly makes up for the hardships of hitting the Ice beam anyway. This problem will not persist through a TAS. I'd go with 10/15 missiles, no energy tanks and probably skipping the Thermal visor, unless someone manages a 2-pool kill on Prime with it. I think this is possible in fact, but I've not managed it myself. And as for playing from SRAM, I would probably like to see a run start from a fresh memory, and then do other runs on hard, as an extension to this run. This will probably end up a possible hard mode run being faster than the normal mode run, but it will show the differences in the tricks you can perform with skipping cutscenes at certain points. This will also allow the people who are familiar with the game to see the game played on hardest difficulty, which I believe is recommended when making a TAS. I'll see if I can't start playing around with this game as well, it should end up being pretty cool.
Posted: 2/16/2011 10:09 AM
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AngerFist
Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
First edition TAS of 2015 Innovative TAS of 2007
The biggest question is: WHO will tas this beautiful game? :) I think there are a lot of minor tricks to be discovered via tasing. Maybe someone will find a new faster way to travel ala link in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask :) Since I absolutely love this game, I would like to see the cutscenes (who can dislike the Ridley cutscene where it flies over Phendrana :D). Also, the cutscenes don't take long to watch compared with Metroid Other M. They are pretty short.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Posted: 2/16/2011 1:08 PM
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Miles
Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 94
AngerFist wrote:
(who can dislike the Ridley cutscene where it flies over Phendrana :D)
Fortunately for you, that cutscene isn't skippable. >_> I would really prefer that cutscenes be skipped. And Hard mode would be boring honestly, it's just "enemies take twice as long to kill"...
Posted: 2/16/2011 3:18 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Given that most enemies do not serve as roadblocks in this game but rather as set-piece challenges, making them take twice as long to kill is not an automatic reason to avoid hard mode. It means we get to see more of the combat against them than we ordinarily would; on Normal enemies die rather quickly even without resorting to TAS techniques.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 2/16/2011 5:32 PM
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Sir_VG
He/Him
Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
Derakon wrote:
Given that most enemies do not serve as roadblocks in this game but rather as set-piece challenges, making them take twice as long to kill is not an automatic reason to avoid hard mode. It means we get to see more of the combat against them than we ordinarily would; on Normal enemies die rather quickly even without resorting to TAS techniques.
Maybe we can do the following for options: NG Normal Mode 100% NG+ Hard Mode Low% or Any% You get two completely different runs that way. Doing 100% on Hard would probably drag on too much to keep the entertainment up compared to Normal 100%. My opinion, though. Seeing a run may change that, though.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 2/16/2011 5:43 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Then again, choosing Hard for 100% would justify using all those %%s on tougher enemies, kind of like in AoS. I think any% should be done from clean state.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 2/17/2011 1:33 AM
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darkszero
He/Him
Joined: 7/12/2009
Posts: 181
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
I'd say the following: Low%: Normal - No need to prolong the boss fights even longer 100%: Hard - You've got more than enough equipment, so use then Any%: I'd say Normal with cutscenes, but this is fairly arbitrary.
Posted: 2/17/2011 1:45 AM
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
Any% should really be done on Normal mode, simply because the Normal mode any% is kind of the iconic run for Prime. However, once that's done, the save file it generates could be used for other catgories to have hard mode/cutscene skip. I also checked how much time not being able to skip the Omega Pirate cutscene loses. Aside from the time it takes for the cutscene to play, in any% and 100% it would lose no time at all, as rapid fire missiles still breaks off his armor before he can even act. It takes 20 Missiles to do this, which might be a good minimum to aim for. It would also give us two shots with the Ice Spreader should we choose to take it, which should be enough. However, 21% doesn't have enough missiles to do this. I suspect that not having the cutscene skip would lose quite a bit of time in 21%. Since, as mentioned, boss fights take a lot of time in 21%, hard mode seems like it would just make the problem worse. 100%, meanwhile, has Samus' entire arsenal at its disposal, and should be able to make short work of any boss. It seems reasonable for 100% to be on hard mode. So, the categories I'd go with are... any% from a new game 100% on hard mode 21% with cutscene skip @Graveworm: The Ice Spreader saves time because it allows you to skip Wave and Power forms in subchambers 2 and 3, which I don't think is possible with just the Ice Beam. If it is, though, then the Ice Spreader is definitely out. I don't think it's even possible for Thermal Visor to save time.
Posted: 2/17/2011 1:54 AM
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sonicpacker
Active player (426)
Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 1047
Location: California
N64/DS TAS of 2021 TAS of 2012 Speedy TAS of 2012 3D Platforms TAS of 2012 N64 TAS of 2010 Speedy TAS of 2010
petrie911 wrote:
However, once that's done, the save file it generates could be used for other catgories to have hard mode/cutscene skip.
You can just import "real" Gamecube saves for Dolphin instead.
https://personalitygrowth.com/entp-myths-stereotypes-misconceptions-cliches-and-tropes-that-are-inaccurate/
Posted: 2/17/2011 2:03 AM
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
The Rules wrote:
However, there are certain games with unlockable modes that can only be accessed if a save file (or an otherwise "dirty" SRAM) is present. If you really wish to submit a movie made on such mode, you will need a verification movie first. Any input file that starts from power-on (for example, a previously submitted or published movie for that game) and creates the exact circumstances for your submission to sync will generally do. Note that you don't have to optimize the verification movie: it only serves as a save or SRAM generator that makes it possible to claim the legitimacy of your effort. A good example is this submission.
We're going to want the save file the any% generates to comply with the above.
Posted: 2/17/2011 2:06 AM
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Miles
Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 94
The Rules wrote:
Note that you don't have to optimize the verification movie: it only serves as a save or SRAM generator that makes it possible to claim the legitimacy of your effort.
Also, Any% may not watch some cutscenes that would be skipped in 100%.
Posted: 2/17/2011 11:10 AM
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Graveworm
Former player
Joined: 9/29/2005
Posts: 460
petrie911 wrote:
@Graveworm: The Ice Spreader saves time because it allows you to skip Wave and Power forms in subchambers 2 and 3, which I don't think is possible with just the Ice Beam. If it is, though, then the Ice Spreader is definitely out. I don't think it's even possible for Thermal Visor to save time.
While I of course have no experience regarding TAS'ing, I've always found it very hard to even 3-pool Prime without Thermal visor, because the spread of the weapon is huge, I believe it's faster to 3-pool the boss without Thermal than to 2-pool it with Thermal because of the cutscene. The Ice spreader is not likely to save any time at all, and I would consider it a waste of time, moreso because of the cutscene and the item pick ups. However most of this is of course not counted towards the in game timer, but for a smooth looking run I would not bother with it. The charged Ice Beam in fact deals alot of damage to Prime, and because of the Freeze animation from Ice spreader, I believe it might be almost as fast if you get a perfect Ice phase, whether you use it or not, counting zero misses. You'll still be able to launch a charged Ice on the Power Beam/Wave Beam phase, and since you'll know what comes next start charging your beam even before the switch is through. The key in skipping Ice spreader is of course manipulating perfect behaviour, and never missing a shot. Most of this would be real time savings though, and not in game. About what takes longer in hard mode: 1. Parasite queen takes marginally longer, but with perfect aim you wouldn't even need to scan her. 2. Missile Turrets during the escape take 2 missiles to destroy. 3. The Chozo Ghosts after Flaaghra take a little longer to kill. 4. The battle against the four small monsters before Wave Beam will take 4 missiles instead of 2 each. 5. The Chozo Ghost right before Ice Beam will take a little longer to kill. 6. The bot guarding the Power Bomb maze will take longer to kill, you're going to want to use 4 charged Ice Beam shots here, because of the Elite Pirate on the way back. 7. Wave Beam pirate fight will take longer if you take that route, and the Pirate battle for the Artifact of warrior will take longer. 8. Omega Pirates shields will take longer to knock off, using the cutscene skip there is no way he's going to use the deflecting shield anyway. 9. Ridley and Prime have twice the amount of health, Ridley is a 2 minute fight anyway, but Prime will of course take longer. These are the things I can think of right now, there's probably more, but most of this game is about fast movement, and not killing things, making the biggest difference between normal and hard survival. I prefer hard mode, but I can see alot of people just wanting to see the fastest normal mode run.
Posted: 2/17/2011 10:48 PM
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
Although I haven't actually started testing the Ice Spreader vs Prime, I did come up with something rather useful. A Damage chart Power Beam - 1 Full Charge - 25 Super Missile - 90 Wave Beam - 1/wave Full Charge - 20 Wavebuster - 5/missile Ice Beam - 10 Full Charge - 30 Ice Spreader - 75 Plasma Beam - 6 Full Charge - 50 Flamethrower - 10/missile Normal Missile - 15 Weak charge - ~60% of full charge Power Bombs - At least 120, and really could be up in the 200s. Additionally, frame data. The total time for a weak charge shot is about 90 frames, and the total time for a full charge shot is about 140. For the Plasma Beam, it's more like 110/180. For uncharged shots... Power Beam - 7 frames Wave Beam - 33 frames Plasma Beam - 21 frames Ice Beam - 62 frames Missiles - 18 frames So, if you have the charge beam, both the Ice and Plasma beams give excellent damage output. If you don't have the charge beam, the Plasma beam is easily the best beam. Rapid Fire Missiles has nearly 3x the damage output of any beam, but obviously doesn't have unlimited ammo.
Posted: 2/18/2011 6:42 AM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Let's look at the dps data, assuming your values are correct. Uncharged: Power Beam — 8.57 Wave Beam — 1.82/wave Ice Beam — 9.68 Plasma Beam — 17.14 Missiles — 50 Weak charge: Power Beam — 10 Wave Beam — 8 Ice Beam — 12 Plasma Beam — 16.36 Full charge: Power Beam — 10.71 Wave Beam — 8.57 Ice Beam — 12.86 Plasma Beam — 16.67 Special weapons (assuming they have the same recharge time as a full charge): Super Missile — 38.57 Ice Spreader — 32.14 This doesn't take enemy invulnerability periods into account, but so far Charge Beam and other charge specials seems completely useless to me. Normal missiles have the highest dps output of all missile-powered weapons, and uncharged Plasma actually outperforms full charge if the frame data is correct. Am I missing something? Oh, and Wave sucks a big one in Prime compared to all 2D Metroids, doesn't it. :V
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 2/18/2011 11:14 AM
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
Charge combos actually take significantly longer. About 210 for the Super Missile and about 250 for the Ice Spreader. Of course, you don't use them for their continuous damage output; you use them when you need a ton of damage done all at once, such as skipping Wave and Power forms in the Prime fight. Though, that said, the Super Missile still has a very high damage output. Also, I checked the Wavebuster and Flamethrower. Both seem to use missiles at about a rate of about 8/second. I might need to recheck the flamthrower's damage data, but if so, this means the wavebuster does a respectable 40 per second and the flamethrower does an astounding 80 per second. EDIT: OK, this is weird. The game claims that the Wavebuster and Flamethrower take 10 missiles to start up and use 5 missiles/second after that. I booted up my 100% file on my real copy of Prime, and it indeed took 48 seconds to blow through my 240 missiles. This would suggest that the Wavebuster has a damage rate of 25/second and the Flamethrower has 50/second. And yet, in Dolphin, I dumped the frames for using the Flamethrower, and it took ~4 seconds to go through 34 missiles. This requires more investigation. With your data on the charged versions of each beam, did you remember to add in the damage of a single uncharged shot? Before you can charge a beam, you have to fire it, and the time it takes to do that was included in the frames there. The main advantages of the charge beam are... 1) Greatly improves the damage output of the Ice Beam, which is important against Prime 2) The charged Plasma beam can set things on fire as well as instantly kill them 3) You can charge the beam while the opponent is invulnerable, greatly increasing damage output 4) Without the charge beam, you cannot do the Ridley flyby skip 5) The charge beam draws in pickups 6) And of course, no charge beam = no Ice Spreader. And yeah, the wave beam sucks ass in this game. Oh, BTW, I have health data for the Omega Pirate Armor: 75 HP each Omega: 300 HP Omega teleports out of his pool when he has taken more than 50 damage. Power Bomb damage has a weird cap on it where it can't make the damage done in that pool more than about 115. This only applies to Power Bombs, though. A fully charged Plasma Beam followed by a Super Missile still does 140.
Posted: 2/18/2011 12:20 PM
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moozooh
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Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Ah, ok, that makes sense. I also forgot to add the uncharged shot to the values, indeed; I thought it was possible to go charge-only like in 2D games. I'll revise the table, or you can do it yourself. I'm still not convinced Ice Spreader is worth it, though.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 2/18/2011 1:56 PM
(Edited: 2/18/2011 2:51 PM)
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
OK, I checked my Dolphin numbers by booting up my real Metroid Prime and pulling out a stopwatch. For the most part, they check out. Here's the final data I'm getting 
Weapon Type   - HP  - Time - Power

Power Beam    -  1  -   7  -  8.57
Weak Charge   - 15  - 105  -  9.14
Full Charge   - 25  - 160  -  9.75
Super Missile - 90  - 233  - 23.18

Ice Beam      - 10  -  60  - 10.00
Weak Charge   - 18  - 105  - 15.00
Full Charge   - 30  - 160  - 16.00
Ice Spreader  - 75  - 233  - 19.31

Wave Beam     -  1/ -  30  -  2.0/
Weak Charge   - 12  - 105  -  8.57
Full Charge   - 20  - 160  -  8.63
Wavebuster    -  5/ -  12/ - 25.00

Plasma Beam   -  6  -  21  - 17.14
Weak Charge   - 30  - 115  - 20.57
Full Charge   - 50  - 170  - 21.00
Flamethrower  - 10/ -  12/ - 50.00

Missiles      - 15  -  18  - 50.00
Bombs         - 10  - 180* -  3.33
Power Bombs   - ??? - 430  - Large
The / after a number indicates multiple damage sources. The Wave Beam fires 3 shots at once, while the Wavebuster and Flamethrower use missiles continuously to do damage. 180 is the time it takes for bombs to refill. Power bombs do an unknown amount of damage, but it's very large. I suspect that rather than a single hit, it's a continuous stream of damage. Either way, it takes out a 400HP Sheegoth in a single blow, so the damage is huge. TBH, all the charge times are approximate, as it's really hard to judge exactly when full charge is. I probably can't justify 2 decimal points of accuracy up there, so take those with a grain of salt. Interesting points -The Flamethrower has a massive damage output equalling rapidfire Missiles -In each element, the charge combos have the highest output. -The Wave Beam is terrible, with its full charges barely outstripping the uncharged Power Beam. Despite this, the Wavebuster is pretty awesome. -Super Missiles are better than full charges from the Plasma Beam. I'd always wondered if that was the case. -Unlike the other beams, the Ice Beam should be weakly charged. This is due to the high base power of normal Ice Beam shots.
Posted: 2/18/2011 2:07 PM
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Miles
Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 94
Weak Charge - 15 - 105 - 9.14
The weakest strength is 14 from the tests that I've done (or 14.x, no idea if it can do "decimals").
Posted: 2/18/2011 2:08 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
petrie911 wrote:
TBH, all the charge times are approximate, as it's really hard to judge exactly when full charge is.
Why would you need to judge it? Just find the address for charge counter.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 2/18/2011 3:06 PM
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Graveworm
Former player
Joined: 9/29/2005
Posts: 460
petrie911 wrote:
Weapon Type   - HP  - Time - Power

Ice Beam      - 10  -  60  - 10.00
Weak Charge   - 18  - 105  - 15.00
Full Charge   - 30  - 160  - 16.00
Ice Spreader  - 75  - 233  - 19.31
Is the Ice spreader "power" accounting for the time lost during the "freeze animation" as well? (Primarily during the Metroid Prime battle.) I've always thought it takes forever before you can fire anything after using the Ice Spreader.
Posted: 2/18/2011 3:21 PM
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
moozooh: I've had trouble finding addresses in Dolphin. The cheat system has a tendency to not work, and MHS can't find anything. Which is really odd. Also MHS doesn't work on 64-bit Dolphin. EDIT: Hmm, and now I think I have found the charge counter. But without RAM watch I can't actually do anything with it. Dolphin doesn't have RAM watch, and as mentioned, MHS isn't doing anything. Miles: 14 damage charge? Hmm, I'll look into this more once I can find addresses. None of the stats should change too much, though. EDIT: well, I still haven't really found the charge counter, but I did manage to get a 14, 17, 11, and 28 damage charges on the Power, Ice, Wave, and Plasma beams respectively. Graveworm: The power is just the damage divided by the number of seconds per shot. Though, I'm not sure what you mean by the delay from the freeze animation. You can fire another Ice Spreader well before the ice from the last one has gone away. Unless it actually works differently in the Prime fight, which I haven't checked.[/list]
Posted: 2/18/2011 6:59 PM
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Graveworm
Former player
Joined: 9/29/2005
Posts: 460
petrie911 wrote:
Graveworm: The power is just the damage divided by the number of seconds per shot. Though, I'm not sure what you mean by the delay from the freeze animation. You can fire another Ice Spreader well before the ice from the last one has gone away. Unless it actually works differently in the Prime fight, which I haven't checked.[/list]
Yeah, I just thought I'd use the same terms as you had used. Sorry about the quotation marks, they don't really mean anything. For all I remember using the Ice Spreader on Metroid Prime freezes the boss in place for a set amount of time, during this time you can't fire and you can't charge your beam. Of course the only difference this does on Prime due to the "post phase" event and rush attack is that shooting an Ice Spreader means: Firing a pre-charged shot/, the weapon combo animation, air time and freezing the boss for what I think is several seconds, for 75 damage. And if missiles allow fire another pre-charged shot with the exact same events. The other option, without Ice Spreader should entail: Firing a pre-charged shot/charging, 30 damage, doing 1 charge and 2 normal shots, which should equal Ice Spreaders damage. 30 + 10 + 30 + 10 damage? On the next phase you're ending up dealing 30 or 40 damage, depending on how soon you can actually fire the charge shot, meaning you're half way through that phase without Ice Spreader. It's possible you could save time through using charged Ice, due to not having to wait for the boss to thaw, after an Ice Spreader hit, but if not, you're probably picking up one or two missile packs less, and you wont have to go pick up the Ice Spreader. If I'm not missing anything here, I could very much see it being faster even in game not picking up the Ice Spreader, and definitely faster in real time. On another note, I think I'll see if I can get Dolphin up and running again, I would love to try boosting over the bars in Great Tree Hall, using TAS tools.
Posted: 2/18/2011 7:09 PM
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Miles
Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 94
Firing a pre-charged shot/charging, 30 damage, doing 1 charge and 2 normal shots, which should equal Ice Spreaders damage. 30 + 10 + 30 + 10 damage?
I'm pretty sure Prime is weak to the Ice Spreader, but not the Ice Beam itself. I think each subround has 110 HP (I've never tested it extensively; it should be around that much though), which is more than the 75 damage Ice Spreader should do, yet it instantly ends the round anyway. ...Actually, what happens on Hard? Does a single Ice Spreader do enough damage or does it take two?
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