Joined: 10/28/2007
Posts: 1360
Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
60 fps or not isn't relevant. We generally ask that the version of the game most familiar to the audience (largely North American viewers) be used unless there are significant glitches present in another version which significantly aid gameplay.
We generally ask that the version of the game most familiar to the audience (largely North American viewers) be used unless there are significant glitches present in another version which significantly aid gameplay.
Isn't that bit of a US-centric attitude? It's not like Europe (or Japan, for that matter) is a niche market for games. The official reason for the preference ought to perhaps be a bit more neutral (eg. related to consistency).
From my latest traffic stats report, visitors' domain statistics in order: net 30%, com 20%, unresolved 12%, jp 7%, edu 5%, fi 5%, se 4%, ca 3%, pl 2%, fr 2%.
As everyone knows, net and com come from everywhere in the world (for example, kotinet.com and aina.net are Finnish domains; hinet.net is Chinese). While it is true that english-speaking are the largest audience of tasvideos and that America has the largest english-speaking population per-country in the world, it may be too hasty to overestimate the proportion of north-american audience compared to the rest.
This following document suggests the following statistics:
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/library/historical_data/pdf/consolidated_sales_e1012.pdf
54.9% of all NES systems were sold in the Americas
31.3% of all NES systems were sold in Japan
13.8% of all NES systems were sold outside of the Americas and Japan (not necessarily even PAL to my understanding.)
46.2% of all NES games sold were sold in the Americas
45.2% of all NES games sold were sold in Japan
8.6% of all NES games were sold outside of the Americas and Japan (not necessarily even PAL to my understanding.)
Japan has sold many more units of SNES software, but the Americas are winning in quantity in essentially every other Nintendo system category.
I don't think it is U.S.-centric to say that many fewer people played the PAL versions of NES games. Japanese and NTSC versions tend to play the same for a large portion games. English is a more widely spoken language. It makes sense to me to run the (U) version more often.
I don't see any reason for the site to bother supporting minute differences in PAL categories for games without significant differences. The final run time will almost always be slightly different due to the way the game is modified for 50 fps vs 60 fps. This assumes the game was modified to play at roughly 6/5 speed per frame.
60 fps or not isn't relevant. We generally ask that the version of the game most familiar to the audience (largely North American viewers) be used unless there are significant glitches present in another version which significantly aid gameplay.
once, I asked if it was bad my Mario vs DK2 TAS was using the EU ROM, and encoders on IRC told me that it was fine because it was a handheld, and it didn't have the PAL/NTSC issue (IIRC)
what was that about?
60 fps or not isn't relevant. We generally ask that the version of the game most familiar to the audience (largely North American viewers) be used unless there are significant glitches present in another version which significantly aid gameplay.
once, I asked if it was bad my Mario vs DK2 TAS was using the EU ROM, and encoders on IRC told me that it was fine because it was a handheld, and it didn't have the PAL/NTSC issue (IIRC)
what was that about?
The encoders were wrong. You should have used the (U) ROM.
Also, this is an interesting topic, but that poor submission already has enough crap being piled in it. Split.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
54.9% of all NES systems were sold in the Americas
31.3% of all NES systems were sold in Japan
13.8% of all NES systems were sold outside of the Americas and Japan (not necessarily even PAL to my understanding.)
46.2% of all NES games sold were sold in the Americas
45.2% of all NES games sold were sold in Japan
8.6% of all NES games were sold outside of the Americas and Japan (not necessarily even PAL to my understanding.)
A policy was needed, otherwise, every thread would turn into Bionic Commando or Hitler no Fukkatsu.
PAL is often a port of the NTSC game. If done poorly, it means no timing changes were made to account for running slower. Both (J) and (U) run at 60Hz, meaning 9/10th of all games sold run that way. That removes PAL from the running.
That leaves (U) or (J). The web is predominately English-speaking. The language of science is English. Of Japanese and English, English is far more predominant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_where_English_is_an_official_language
That map ignores the numerous countries where English is a prevalent second language. I'd hardly consider the (U) rule to be US centric, it simply is the ROM type that would appeal to the largest audience.
http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=will_the_internet_always_speak_english
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
A policy was needed, otherwise, every thread would turn into Bionic Commando or Hitler no Fukkatsu.
This is a wrong example to illustrate that point (probably as far from the point as you can get). In case with BC, it wasn't obvious at all as to which of the two releases was superior, as both had different advantages going for them. That debacle could have happened now as well since we do allow non-U releases if the author (or the public) makes a successful case for their superiority.
In general the difference is quite clear, though.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
A policy was needed, otherwise, every thread would turn into Bionic Commando or Hitler no Fukkatsu.
This is a wrong example to illustrate that point (probably as far from the point as you can get). In case with BC, it wasn't obvious at all as to which of the two releases was superior, as both had different advantages going for them. That debacle could have happened now as well since we do allow non-U releases if the author (or the public) makes a successful case for their superiority.
In general the difference is quite clear, though.
Uh, I can't think of another thread. I was just using it as an example of the arguing that can occur, not that it is the quintessential (U) vs. (J) discussion.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
What about the issue of (E) vs. (J)? That's come up in a couple of games that have no (U) version, and IIRC both decisions have been made (usually by the run author). The argument there would be in-English vs. original-timings (PAL ports are generally timed incorrectly; arguably, where the PAL game is the original, it's the NTSC port that's timed incorrectly, but games are rarely released only in Europe and then later ported to NTSC).
Joined: 3/1/2011
Posts: 288
Location: Inside out house.
(E) is a PAL version of game. It runs slower than (U). Japan can use PAL or NTSC. So we don't know, witch system has been used. (E) and (J) versions are used only, where game, witch we TAS, wasn't came out in (U) or there are glitches, what deleted in (U) version of this ROM. Easy rule? Yeah. Pretty easy. Remember. :)
<Nach> scrimpy is fretty with her sunglasses on
I'm here. never visible.
What about the issue of (E) vs. (J)? That's come up in a couple of games that have no (U) version, and IIRC both decisions have been made (usually by the run author). The argument there would be in-English vs. original-timings (PAL ports are generally timed incorrectly; arguably, where the PAL game is the original, it's the NTSC port that's timed incorrectly, but games are rarely released only in Europe and then later ported to NTSC).
So far in most cases J releases have been preferred if only for the sole reason of running faster (or, if PAL counterparts had their speed compensated, at a higher temporal resolution) if there were no other benefits to speak of. I can't really think of a E release being preferred without new glitches or something, only maybe if it were a text-heavy game with unskippable text (but then again, it's hardly a good reason in a speedrun, period).
The most interesting case so far has been [948] NES Shadow of the Ninja (Japan) "1 player" by klmz in 09:48.32, which is a game that has been released in all three regions under three different names and with different tricks/glitches possible, of which the U version has proved to be the least favorable for TASing.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
...it just occurred to me that that's probably why Terranigma's sound feels so ponderous all the time. It's probably running ~17% too slowly. If we'd only gotten a (U) release we wouldn't have that problem. *shakes fist*
More relevantly, generally as I see it the decision is first: is there a version that has noticeable good non-text differences (e.g. glitches, better content, proper running speed)? If so, go with that version. Otherwise, go with the version that maximizes how much of the audience will be able to understand the text. Generally that means going for English when available. I suppose if you had to choose between, say, Japanese and German...
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
...it just occurred to me that that's probably why Terranigma's sound feels so ponderous all the time. It's probably running ~17% too slowly. If we'd only gotten a (U) release we wouldn't have that problem. *shakes fist*
Nice theory, but the SPC700 plays music independently of the TV speed. On a SNES, you can't hear the difference between the NTSC and PAL regions. Only difference you might hear is if two sound effects are played several frames apart, instead of it just being one sound effect.
So far in most cases J releases have been preferred if only for the sole reason of running faster (or, if PAL counterparts had their speed compensated, at a higher temporal resolution) if there were no other benefits to speak of. I can't really think of a E release being preferred without new glitches or something, only maybe if it were a text-heavy game with unskippable text (but then again, it's hardly a good reason in a speedrun, period).
If one of the main reasons to prefer the U version is the language (because the vast majority of viewers understand English, only a small minority Japanese), it would seem quite inconsistent to prefer the J versio over the E version when the U one is not an option. Why is the language suddenly not an issue anylonger?
Even if the game is not very text-heavy, the language can still be important from the viewer's perspective. Also, many a screenshot shows a moment when some text becomes humorous in context ("Too slow, Mr. Bond.")
If one of the main reasons to prefer the U version is the language (because the vast majority of viewers understand English, only a small minority Japanese), it would seem quite inconsistent to prefer the J versio over the E version when the U one is not an option. Why is the language suddenly not an issue anylonger?
Because letting, let alone encouraging, the audience to read a game's text has never been a primary objective of any speedrun. If that were to be consistent it would interfere with other, more important goals (i. e., speed or precision) and you would then present the carbon copy of this argument with its variables changed to represent the goals that would suddenly not be an issue then. There's no pleasing everybody.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Because letting, let alone encouraging, the audience to read a game's text has never been a primary objective of any speedrun.
I thought the ultimately primary goal of a speedrun is entertainment. Not letting the viewer understand any text by choice of language detracts from entertainment.
Let's take a different (but somewhat related) example: If in a more modern game there are unskippable cutscenes where the player retains control, the runner could make watching the cutscene as enjoyable to the viewer as possible (by always choosing the best positions and vewing angles to get all the details that are happening), or he could actively sabotage the cutscene and "censor" everything so that the viewer has no idea what's going on. Which one is more preferable?
You are missing the point. There is a certain hierarchy of objectives accepted on the site to determine consistency of the goals an author chooses. Let me illustrate.
Scenario #1: game X, which contains an insignificant amount of text, has a trick on the Japanese version making it faster, with no other differences. The author would be encouraged to use the Japanese version. Why? Because speed is more important.
J > U. Case in point: Contra: The Hard Corps.
Scenario #2: game Y, which is long and contains significant amount of unskippable text, can be made shorter by the means of choosing the Japanese version as Japanese text needs less time to be displayed, otherwise having no differences. The author would be encouraged to use the English version. Why? Because if the text is unskippable, you may as well have it readable and have the speed be expressed via actual gameplay.
U > J. Case in point: Ocarina of Time.
Scenario #3: game Z, which has a significant amount of skippable text is run on the English version, but the author chooses not to skip any cutscenes, letting the audience read the text, explaining his decision with entertainment reasons.
Now how quickly do you think such a run would be rejected disregarding the version choice? (Three days, duh.) Why? Because speed is more important.
Scenario #4: game Z again, except in this case the author skips the cutscenes but makes a "story" version to complement it. Naturally he would choose the English release then.
U > J. Case in point: Ninja Gaiden II.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
