Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
geocities wouldn't upload it, I guess because it's an unrecognized file format. Filespace, on the other hand, fits the bill quite nicely and doesn't seem to have issues uploading files with strange suffixes.
WIP (right click and save as.)
rom used: Lufia II - Rise of the Sinistrals (E) [!].smc
uses WIP1 timing, but I think that's the only option
I've gotten to the room just in front of the catfish and I've planned out the fight, (i.e: I've fought it at normal speed using save-states to force nice behavior patterns) I just have to record it. I'm having as much trouble forcing it to drop the catfish rock as I figured I would, but I've decided it may not save as much time as I'd thought, so I'm not going to bother. (Though if anyone knows which variable determines the drop, please let me know. I'll do the research to figure out how to force the drop, but I don't even know how to figure out which variable it is. I'm very unfamiliar with snes9x's cheat function.)
If you have any questions, suggestions, comments, or just notice something weird that you don't understand, feel free to say something. Treat the run as if it were a final version, 'cause once I get to the Treasure Sword shrine I'm not going to go back and re-record things. (and this is not a test run. It would take way too long to go through this thing twice.)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
*tests IE.*
I don't have a problem.
*changes IP address*
Still no problem.
You might try just clicking on that and saving the garbage it displays. *shrug* Or maybe the server was slow or something. Or you can always try Mozilla Firefox, which there's no excuse not to use instead of Netscape. (And only very weak excuses not to use it instead of IE.) [/shameless plug]
In-battle randomness seems to be determined by the actions chosen for the characters, and neither timing nor before-battle steps seemed to change the results for me. I'm not sure about before-battle actions like sword-swings. (Then again, you can't swing your sword in the catfish's room anyways.)
The shortest fight I was able to get a jewel in was 10 turns, with the following actions:
Boomerang
Boomerang
Attack
Potion
Potion
Potion
Attack
Strong
Attack
Bomb Attack
I think it could be done in less turns, though.
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
The monsters' attack pattern is determined at the beginning of the fight, based on out-of-battle factors, mostly how many encounters you've fought in that dungeon. (The number of steps you take on the world map is a factor for other monsters, but I'm not sure about bosses.) Once the pattern is set, the action for a particular round is determined by the action(s) taken by the character(s) in battle.
For standard monsters, according to the data I've been able to collect, a certain drop is always linked to a particular attack pattern. Apparently that's not the case for the bosses.
I'm assuming you did all this testing using the end of my run as a starting point. If that's the case, I have to ask whether you fought the frog in front of the catfish's room. I'm going to assume "no," but y'never know.
I'll do as much testing as I can, but since I've got a test and a paper due on Wednesday and then another test on Friday, I don't promise anything this week.
The monsters' attack pattern is determined at the beginning of the fight, based on out-of-battle factors, mostly how many encounters you've fought in that dungeon.
That makes sense. I can't believe I didn't think to try that.
quietkane wrote:
I'm assuming you did all this testing using the end of my run as a starting point. If that's the case, I have to ask whether you fought the frog in front of the catfish's room. I'm going to assume "no," but y'never know.
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Well, it's really more like a formula or algorithm than a pattern, since what it does on a particular round changes depending on the characters' actions. Unfortunately, there seem to be some rounds which you can't force particular actions on. Which rounds can't be forced changes from pattern to pattern, but so far as I've been able to tell there's no way to keep a boss from performing a given action in a given battle aside from killing it before it has a chance to do it. (Which is hard to do at low levels, even with luck manipulation.)
I've isolated which memory address determines the drop. 7E160C determines what type of item the monster drops, and 7E160B determines which particular item in that set it drops. (This is for any monster, by the way.) (03 for the first address translates into jewels and rocks, 82 for the second will drop the Catfish Jwl. in conjunction with the first.) Unfortunately, the address is only given a value at the end of the battle, so I can't tell exactly what makes the Catfish drop the rock. It seems, however, that using Bomb Attack once (anytime during the battle) tends to make it drop the rock. I found a single way to make it drop the rock without using the IP, but everything else involved using Bomb Attack once. (And exactly once. O_o .....)
Also, the attack pattern for normal monsters doesn't directly determine what it drops, but certain patterns are far more likely to drop something than another. (I can't find a single way to force the Eagles I fight in the catfish cave to drop an Eagle Rock, for example, while the frog I fight there drops a Rapier fairly readily.)
Anyway... I beat the Catfish (and grabbed the rock; thanks to Zaku X for his help with that.) and then proceeded to redo the Alunze dungeon, which is probably the smallest dungeon in the game. Maybe not shortest, but it definitely has the fewest rooms. Anyway, this means the run has now beaten the first true boss of the game and solved the first true puzzle. *shrug* Small landmark, but a landmark nonetheless.
WIP (It's a .rar file, which is basically a .zip file. If you can't open it with your archiving program go to winrar.com and download their program.)
still using rom version: Lufia II - Rise of the Sinistrals (E) [!].smc
By the way, I hit 1HP at least three times in this run. It's hard to tell when, and it's not very important, but I think it's cool.
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Yeah, I realize that I have a choice at that point: speed or entertainment value. It's possible to beat him at level 15, I hear, but I'm going to skip the Jet Helm, which is one of the necessary elements of beating him at any level lower than 30. I also don't have the speedy ring, or whatever it's called, which I know helps a lot. Plus, I have no clue what level I'm going to be when I get there, and therefore no clue about how much work it will be to reach a point where I can even survive his attacks, let alone kill him.
On the other hand, I'm going to have the Catfish Jwl., Camu Jewel, and Spido Jewel. That might give me a sporting chance.
I suppose I can hold a poll when I reach that point. (Which isn't too far off, really.) In the meantime, another question for y'alls:
Should I give you an extra frame or three to read the conversations? I realize that makes the game take way longer, but being able to follow the plot might enhance the entertainment factor. The time spent in towns (or anywhere else conversations can happen) doesn't change anything else about the run (so far as I can tell), so I can just hex-edit the extra frames in, if you want. (Provided I ever learn how to hex-edit.) The run's going to be multiple hours anyway, so it would be better to go for entertainment than time, in my opinion.
*shrug* Give me a thumbs up or a thumbs down. I'll continue recording with minimized talk-time until I hear a strong vote for plot.
I just watched the video... I noticed to set off the bomb you walked away and walked back.. is that faster than swinging the sword?
yea the catfish battle looked pretty cool. Good Luck with manipulating drops.
yea, don't. Anyone watching this will have already played it. I've played through it at least 4 times, I know the story almost by heart.
The gades blade is extremely powerful. One of the better swords in the game. I think it'd be something that is worth going after. Level 15 is with no luck manipulation though, isn't it? You have more control over what's going on in the battle, also... What would getting the Jet Helm take? As in time... It might be worth it.
Looking foward to seeing Dekar again. Prolly my favorite character. Poor guy died. :(
Joined: 3/15/2005
Posts: 30
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Not to mention you can always play it back in slow motion, either with your video player (when it gets published) or with frame advance in the emulator.
BTW, run looks great. This one snuck up on me, I'll be looking forward to it now. Grr... now I have to wait =p.
The wip looks great but I'm just wondering how you'll fare later in the game with such low levels. I don't remember this game being the easiest to do a low level game on. Lufia 2 being my favorite game ever, I'm really looking forward to this.
BTW did you push a block one too many times in the castle dungeon or was I not paying attention?
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Kyrsimys wrote:
The wip looks great but I'm just wondering how you'll fare later in the game with such low levels. I don't remember this game being the easiest to do a low level game on. Lufia 2 being my favorite game ever, I'm really looking forward to this.
BTW did you push a block one too many times in the castle dungeon or was I not paying attention?
If you're referring to the multicolored blocks puzzle, there are no unnecessary movements for that solution. That might not be the optimal solution, but it's the best one I could find. I have to move that red block so far to the left so that I can get to the other side of the blue one so I can push it into place.
As for doing well with low-levels... actually, it may not seem like it, but this is a pretty good RPG to try with low levels. (Especially with luck manipulation, since that lets you avoid most of the really devastating attacks from the later bosses.) There are several reasons for this. The first is that each character joins the party at a prescribed level. This means that, among other things, Arty always joins at level 38. This helps a great deal. Second, the IP guage gets charged based on the % of your current HP you take in damage. Since IP's can have incredibly powerful effects (Diamond Dust comes to mind...), that means that having less HP can actually help you deal more damage. There's a couple other things (manipulating perfect odds at the casino, forcing good drops in the Ancient Cave, etc.) I could do to make it easier, but those're the two big things.
In any case, there's actually a low-level FAQ on gamefaqs.com, and its main concern is with going out of your way to avoid gaining experience from the battles you're forced into. I'm not concerned with that, so I shouldn't have a problem.
qbproger wrote:
The gades blade is extremely powerful. One of the better swords in the game. I think it'd be something that is worth going after. Level 15 is with no luck manipulation though, isn't it? You have more control over what's going on in the battle, also... What would getting the Jet Helm take? As in time... It might be worth it.
Actually, one of the guides for beating him doesn't even mention the Jet Helm, so it's not as important as I thought. But I assure you, the Jet Helm is not worth the effort it takes. You have to "solve" an incredibly annoying "puzzle" that takes at least 3 minutes on the console, probably about a minute tool-assisted.
And actually, I mis-remembered the appropriate level: it's 25. The reason that's the minimum level is that at any level below that, Tia and Selan both die the first time he uses Destructo Wave, which I don't believe you can prevent.
qbproger wrote:
I just watched the video... I noticed to set off the bomb you walked away and walked back.. is that faster than swinging the sword?
Actually, I take five steps and swing my sword for the second bomb, which is slower by about 4 frames, but for some reason changes the movement patterns in one of the subsequent rooms rather favorably. (I don't remember which one.) Beyond that, swinging your sword six times is no faster than taking six steps.
Lufia 2 is my favorite US-released SNES RPG, so quietkane, you're my new hero! Unfortunately, I haven't tried speedrunning though this game before, so I can't give you any tips you don't already know.
To various people who have posted:
Omega: Please don't scare me with talk like that. It should be a sin punishable by death to watch a time attack of a game you're even remotely interested in playing. Imagine someone getting their opinion of Zelda 3 from the 5 minute run.
ventuz: Hate to say it, but if you've played more than 5 times, you should realize that missing capsule monsters is definitely the way to go. Here's a hint: they don't feed themselves, and in their spare time.
BoltR: Now that there's a real run at this game, I fully agree with you. ;)
AdmiralJonB: Not only are there European versions, this game is actually a huge cult classic in Europe. Without launching into a big tirade about how (just an example) if Square pulled out of the US SNES market instead of Enix, people would be anticipating Enix-Square's release of DW8 and ignoring FF12 instead of the other way around, you have to think about what games were released in the US, and which in Europe, and then it'll make more sense what became popular.
quietkane: Well, actually, Lufia is in this game. And I'm not talking about you know what. Lufia is actually what makes the ending one of the best ever.
Oh, and Netscape vs Firefox shouldn't matter, they both use the same Mozilla code base.
Don't beat Gades, don't slow down for text.
qproger: Hate to say it, but if you've played at least 4 times, you should realize that Dekar lives! "I've forgotten how to miss!" How could you forget this? It's only, just about the best line ever. ;)
Kyrsimys: Hate to say it, but if Lufia 2 is your favorite game ever, you should realize that later in the game, this game is ridiculously easy even at low levels. The game hits its difficulty climax at Idura, and after the 2 Lions, there's really nowhere else you could lose on. I forgive the game somewhat plotwise, because given Lufia 1, the heros are supposed to be destined to smite down the Sinistrals. It has a nice feeling of inevitability to it, and there's always the Egg Dragon and Ancient Cave for a bit more challenge. But gameplay-wise, the ease of this game is its one glaring weakness. I guess they overcompensated from Lufia 1, where leveling was required.
I'm glad people out there do realize the greatness of Lufia, however. You guys all rock in my book.
Enhasa: last time i played was about 5 years ago. I remember him almost dying or something like that. Anyway, can we drop it? :P
Also, Why not get the Gades Blade? As long as it doesn't require leveling.
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Enhasa: Well.... she's not called Lufia in this one. And so far as I'm concerned, she's not really Lufia, either. But...... yeah.
And did it ever strike you as odd that Guy lived 99 years after the battle with the Sinistrals? I mean, it makes sense that Artea would, but why should Guy?
(By the way, I played Lufia II before I played Lufia. For what that's worth.)
qbproger: If it doesn't require levelling. That's a pretty big if, dude.
Right. Camu's dead, now. (Camu Jewel dropped)
WIP (zip file)
Save States (zip file)
Rom version used: Lufia II - Rise of the Sinistrals (E) [!].smc
Save states are for those of you who don't want to watch through the whole run again. (It's already a half-hour long. This version of the run is not quite twice as long as the last, by the way.) (Sorry about the filenames but these are at geocities, which apparently has some very strange restrictions on filenames. Filespace was really slow when I tried to upload them, so this was really the only option I had.)
I think I've noticed something about drops: actions that don't target a monster don't affect its drop. I'm not entirely sure about that, but it seems to be the case.
Also: Sorry I get repetitive for going through the tower twice, but I need the Fire Dagger for the upcoming fight against the Tarantula, and the bracelet for Tia really helps the fight against Camu. I dunno if the Camu Armor is necessary or not, but it's right there so I figured I'd get it. Not sure whether the Jute Helmet is worth the time, but I know it helps against Camu and the spider, and I don't have a good way to test whether it's worth it short of re-recording the entire tower over again. So I figured since it's just a room out of my way I'd grab it.
The pillar-and-jar puzzle is done two different ways because I didn't want it seeming like I just "copy/pasted" the first run through the tower. (It makes it less boring to watch the repeat visit.)
It doesn't actually waste any frames because it changes the movement pattern of the crab in the next room. Not too favorably/unfavorably, but enough that there's no real difference in time between the two solutions. (I only waste two steps with the first solution, but it saves me (I think) two steps from the crab, so....) Of course, it might change movement patterns much later noticeably favorably/unfavorably, but I have a hard time tracing changes in movement patterns more than one floor back.
Man I never figured lufia2 could be gone through at such low levels. This rpg is more fun to watch(for me) than some other rpgs, because of the innovative ways the puzzles can be beaten so quickly. The exception is the entertainment value of an rpg like secret of mana or evermore, because of the live battle.
Keep it up, I sure hope you can beat the rest of the game without leveling.
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Bleah. I've noticed a mistake: in Tanbel, I waste two steps going to the weapon shop. Unfortunately, I don't know how that affects the rest of the run, but I suspect it requires a complete re-record from that point. (I hope I'm wrong, though. I'd hate to have a stupid mistake like that in the run, and I'm not re-doing that tower again. Not to mention the fight with Camu.)
Also, I was wrong about not wasting steps with the alternate puzzle solution. I take 4 extra steps the first time and only gain two back from the crab's changed movement. So it's slower. But changing that would require that I redo that tower twice, so I'm going to go with an "entertainment factor" plea on this one.
As for no more levelling, the extra trip up the tower was to prevent having to level for the next two bosses. It remains to be seen whether I actually saved myself time on it, though. Beyond that, the only level wall I forsee is the first battle with Idura at the northern lighthouse. (That battle's hard even with good levels.) I might get surprised by something, though.
