Do not use fan-translations or otherwise hacked ROMs ― translators do not want you to use obsolete versions and we prefer non-hacked games.
I thought we were encouraging hacks now? So this shold probably be reworded.
If it exists, use the (U) version of a ROM unless there is a good reason not to (as an example a shortcut/trick which only works in a different version, or superior music).
On newer systems like Gamecube PAL60 will actually give you the best picture quality and it will still be in english. If you are getting into the generation of the Wii / 360 / PS3, those consoles will at least put out 480p, so PAL or NTSC doesn't matter. So I think this should have an amendment to it stating that fact...
If you are running a NTSC game (U or J), you must set your emulator to record in NTSC mode. Likewise, if you are running a PAL game (E), you must record your movie in PAL mode. Any other setting will get your movie promptly rejected. Note that such settings are enabled automatically in most emulators, but it's better to check before you start recording.
If you are obsoleting a movie that was recorded with the wrong settings, that movie's completion time will be increased 20% when comparing them to adjust for the fact that PAL games run at 50 Hz and NTSC at 60 Hz.
This passage might be a little confusing for newcomers since, like stated, GC runs PAL60 natively.
On the subject of hacks, I think we should allow them on the basis the original games have a published TAS on the site first.
I am in agreement with PAL 60 versions of games being allowed whenever possible. And the rules about release versions do need some clarification in this regard.
Do not use fan-translations or otherwise hacked ROMs ― translators do not want you to use obsolete versions and we prefer non-hacked games.
I thought we were encouraging hacks now? So this shold probably be reworded.
Encouraging hacks? I'm not sure what you mean. We allow hacks more openly now.
Anyway, I've always disliked this rule, especially for completed RPG translations.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Encouraging hacks? I'm not sure what you mean. We allow hacks more openly now.
Tomato, tomato. Either way it should be worded differently.
But the other things are more important, anyway. They already confused one potential TASer to no end. ;)
Actually, that second rule you've quoted is just fine as it is currently, as there's no actual benefit to PAL60 over NTSC in an emulator.
It won't give any "better" picture quality because the signal deterioration associated with NTSC only takes place in actual hardware (analog transmission, yadda yadda). PAL60-capable consoles output the same resolution as NTSC as well. In practice there will be no visual difference.
There may be gameplay differences, in which case the faster (or otherwise better) version will be preferred. The rule elaborates on that point.
It's the same with handheld games. They have no PAL/NTSC output, and they all run at the same framerate in all regions. Yet, (U) versions are preferred unless there's a good reason for the otherwise.
Slowking wrote:
This passage might be a little confusing for newcomers since, like stated, GC runs PAL60 natively
It's not really confusing because PAL and PAL60 are two different output standards. :) The rules just don't include the latter yet.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
PAL has 575 lines/field, NTSC only 562,5. Why should this be any different in an emulator?
Because, as I said just above, PAL60 isn't PAL. Also, those numbers are wrong and I'm rather unsure where did you take them from at all. PAL Gamecube can output at most 640x480 with progressive scan. 640x576 is also possible, but only interlaced, and thus generally doesn't make sense for maximizing video quality: there's less meaningful information per frame, and deinterlacing will not restore all of it, not without artifacts of its own at least. But that is irrelevant anyway, as PAL output is 50 Hz.
Wikipedia wrote:
Many 1990s onwards VCR players sold in Europe can play back NTSC tapes/discs. When operating in this mode most of them do not output a true (625/25) PAL signal but rather a hybrid consisting of the original NTSC line standard (525/30) but with colour converted to PAL 4.43 MHz - this is known as "PAL 60" (also "quasi-PAL" or "pseudo PAL") with "60" standing for 60 Hz (for 525/30), instead of 50 Hz (for 625/25). Some video game consoles also output a signal in this mode. Most newer television sets can display such a signal correctly but some will only do so (if at all) in black and white and/or with flickering/foldover at the bottom of the picture, or picture rolling (however, many old TV sets can display the picture properly by means of adjusting the V-Hold and V-Height knobs — assuming they have them). Some TV tuner cards or video capture cards will support this mode (although software/driver modification can be required and the manufacturers' specs may be unclear). A "PAL 60" signal is similar to an NTSC (525/30) signal but with the usual PAL chrominance subcarrier at 4.43 MHz (instead of 3.58 as with NTSC and South American PAL variants) and with the PAL-specific phase alternation of the red colour difference signal between the lines.
[...]
Beginning with the Dreamcast and continuing through the sixth generation of consoles, developers began including PAL60 modes in their games. Games that run at PAL60 are produced with the same colour encoding system as 50 Hz PAL signals, but with the NTSC resolution and field rate of 60 Hz, providing an identical gaming experience to their NTSC counterparts.
I hope you see the difference between PAL and PAL60 now, as well as why it's in no way superior to NTSC.
Slowking wrote:
It's obviously confusing, since it confused somebody. ;)
Not everybody knows about output standards and what they are.
...And that's why there's that "go with the (U) version unless there's a good reason not to". If the person in question is confused and wants to submit here, they could as well go here on the forums and ask, right?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
The confusion was about playing a PAL game at 60Hz and that should have been pretty clear from what I wrote.
Many people won't know the difference between PAL60 and forcing a PAL game to play at 60Hz.
And ofcourse anything can be asked here. But shouldn't the rules be clear? Some people may be turned away before they ever get to the forums.
Btw. is there a list with gaes that support 480p? Afaik there were so few that Nintendo even removed the digital output that was needed for that from later GC models.
But ok PAL60 and NTSC have the same resolution. You got me there. ;)
The rules should be clear. The PAL60 information will be added there. However, what I'm trying to say is it doesn't really matter since NTSC-U versions are still preferable regardless. I mean, even if you put the PAL60 information there, the person in question would still need to come here and defend their choice of version if they're doing it on PAL60 instead of NTSC-U.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
The rules should be clear. The PAL60 information will be added there. However, what I'm trying to say is it doesn't really matter since NTSC-U versions are still preferable regardless. I mean, even if you put the PAL60 information there, the person in question would still need to come here and defend their choice of version if they're doing it on PAL60 instead of NTSC-U.
Yeah I got that part. ;)
I was wrong in assuming that PAL60 has a higher resolution like PAL50. My bad.
Btw. found the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nintendo_GameCube_games_with_480p_and_16:9_support
I know I'm derailing the topic a little, but can PAL gaes even be put into progrssive? The B-shortcut usually is for PAL60 on those games...
Edit: and got my answer to that one:
Only games produced for NTSC regions will directly support this mode. Although PAL editions of the DOL-001 hardware were produced, the games themselves only support PAL (576i) or PAL60 (480i). As such, those featured in this list all refer to the NTSC region versions released in either the United States or Japan. Provided that all other pre-requisites are satisfied, some NTSC titles may be used on PAL hardware in 480p mode but, due to region locking, this requires the use of either a software loader (such as the Datel Freeloader) or a modchip.
Dolphin may be able to force them into that mode but that is a kinda iffy situation...
Joined: 7/30/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Watching a TAS in the basement...
I agree with the fan translation rule change. I just hate it when I can't tell what's going on because its in a different language. Final Fantasy III and V come to mind.
Joined: 7/30/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Watching a TAS in the basement...
Lufia II: RotS also was royally screwed up in the NTSC version, but everything was fixed in PAL. Therefore, I think the rule should be that the most optimized version of the game should be submitted. In the case of a tie, USA, EU, JPN is the priority order.
The reason fan translations are disallowed is because there's a lot more changed than just the text. I tested this in FE6 with the translation patch there, and it changes the timing so that it effectively needs an entirely new TAS to get the RNG to behave as in the unmodified version.
With translation patches, there are quite frankly more changes than can be seen first hand, and it is easy to make changes that are impossible to replicate on real hardware. Not only that, there could be other modifications made that affect things the runner cannot anticipate that would not occur on the real game. There's also a legitimacy issue with the TAS itself - whether such a thing would be possible without the patch.
If you want to read the game's script, I'd suggest just playing the game with a patch. If you want to watch a TAS, then you shouldn't be trying to follow the story. LPs are more suited to this.
Joined: 7/30/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Watching a TAS in the basement...
Maybe fan translations could be it's own category. That way, if there is a TAS in an untranslated TAS, it can't obsolete the translated one and vice versa.
I hardly see the point in this other than filling space. Like I said, a TAS is not the best environment to be following a game's story, there are better avenues for vicariously 'playing' a game.
I hardly see the point in this other than filling space. Like I said, a TAS is not the best environment to be following a game's story, there are better avenues for vicariously 'playing' a game.
It's not only about following the story, it's also about following the TAS itself. If the text is readable, that increases the chances figuring out what's going on in the TAS (which weapons or spells are being equipped, which options are being selected, etc.), which can increase its entertainment value. And as for the story, some games force you to read quite a bit of story text regardless of whether your goal is to follow the story, so if you can't actually read the text then those parts of the game become even more boring than usual.
That being said, I can see the appeal of sticking with only official versions of the game for the sake of purity or something like that (plus Japanese text usually goes by faster).
What about GBA games which got optimized before the European release, and run faster with less lag?
Site Rules wrote:
If it exists, use the (U) version of a ROM unless there is a good reason not to
The only thing that needs to be clarified in the rules is the possibility of (E) versions, as all examples mention (J) specifically. And absence of lag is mentioned specifically as a "good reason".
First a movie gets submitted, and ends up accepted despite breaking rules other runs have been rejected for. And when I vote less than spectacularly on this movie, I become the victim of harassment and threats.
Yay, favoritism.
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
Does the popularity of the game's region, and source region of release count for anything regarding as a good reason? For example, basically no-one outside of the United Kingdom and Europe has heard of the game Mega Lo Mania. While it was localized in America as Tyrants: Battle Through Time, it was incredibly unpopular. Basically, I feel that limiting games to the US versions of them can end up completely missing the most popular audience for the game.
Ironically, this has lead to me planning for the Amiga version instead (as far as I am aware, only the Mega Drive version got localized properly for America). Though, admittedly, my example isn't the best anyway. The Amiga version has mouse support and some really easy to abuse bugs regarding Nuclear Warfare (as well as other bugs just being plain easier thanks to the mouse), but I am derailing from the point here.
I just honestly think that the games popularity in the given regions should also be considered.
I agree that the rule that forbids fan translations has been biting me most. I know why I set that rule, but it still annoys me most.
Now that I'm no longer in charge, I have no objection to if the rule is removed or changed.
For instance, I would be glad to see the DeJap translation of Star Ocean TASed, possibly even obsoleting the current Japanese version thereof, thereby potentially significantly increasing the entertainment ratings of the TAS of that relatively unknown game. (And I would like to see it being done in an emulator that does not distort the speech of the intro, such as (probably) BSNES.)
I don't know if this was mentioned, but I always thought fan translations were taboo because the patch being used makes obsoletions more difficult.
What I mean is, if someone uses a 90% complete patch to make a TAS, and someone wants to obsolete that TAS while a more updated patch exists, what should they do? Similarly, what if there are two or more complete fan translations of the game?
And, after reading Tootache's post, you have to consider the possibility of other changes the patch might incur. For instance, the patch might lower the hp of every enemy in the game by 1, which is a hard thing to notice. I doubt a fan translator would do these types of things, but who knows.
At the same time, I'm all for translation patches if people can get past these challenges they create. Even if you can't read text, it's always nice to know what's happening in terms of menus and items.
Well, you could impose some limits, such as:
1) The translation patch must be "officially" titled 100% complete (by the creators of the translation).
2) It must have been unchanged for at least a year. (In other words, it really is the final translation and clearly nobody is working on it anymore.)
3) The source of the translation should be "reputable". (Although this can be quite a hard rule to define precisely.)
So, new runs should be obsoleted or go along in a separate section (like the Rom Hacks)
Also, is there a limit for hacks based on a single game? I really hope not, but it's something that happened a few times, and there's always some talk if the submitted run would obsolete another romhack.
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
Yes, translations can and have affected the way a game behaves. For instance, look at FF3J: the esoteric job bugs used in piro's run no longer work the way they do with the popular translation that's available.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
