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Posted: 8/29/2011 8:25 AM
(Edited: 8/29/2011 7:14 PM)
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
As other users have stated, I feel there needs to be adequate warning that banning is in the future for this type of behavior. You could issue temporary bans first. I feel xkeeper probably didn't release his behavior was so destructive or what exactly needed to change or that it had to change or banning would ensue. If this was done I bet he would have changed his ways. A temporary ban can go a long way to get the message across, this seems under-utilized.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 8/29/2011 1:42 PM
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Flygon
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
Spider-Waffle wrote:
A temporary ban can go a long way to get the message across, this seems under-utilized.
I am in full gosh darn agreement to this.
Posted: 9/1/2011 10:15 AM
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Dada
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Spider-Waffle wrote:
As other users have stated, I feel there needs to be adequate warning that banning is in the future for this type of behavior. You could issue temporary bans first. I feel xkeeper probably didn't release his behavior was so destructive or what exactly needed to change or that it had to change or banning would ensue. If this was done I bet he would have changed his ways. A temporary ban can go a long way to get the message across, this seems under-utilized.
I personally don't know much about this particular situation, so I'll refrain from saying anything about Xkeeper, but I generally agree with this. I'm not really running any big sites anymore but a couple of years ago I moderated a very busy section of a general discussion forum with over 20k members. What I found was that it's usually just as effective to simply send someone a PM kindly explaining that you think whatever he or she is doing is inappropriate, and that people might complain. Being open about these things towards members resulted in avoiding any sort of punishment probably 75% of the time. And those times punitive action was needed, it was usually just a warning (the forum had a warn system, I guess we don't have that) and at most a temporary ban. But people were generally ready apologize and dial it down a bit. In my view, permanent bans should really be used for spambots and for extremely rare circumstances such as someone making legal threats against the site or other members or for people whose views are so extreme (like self-admitted neo-Nazis) that they're only going to be a constant nuisance. Not that I'm saying I know what the deal is here, of course. This is a different forum altogether and my experience there might not be relevant here at all.
Posted: 9/1/2011 4:18 PM
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Dwedit
He/Him
Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 692
Location: Chicago
Doesn't XKeeper have a history of "leaving" boards and making new boards? I know he split off Acmlmboard into "Justus league".
Posted: 9/1/2011 4:58 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
My personal opinion is that Xkeeper has indeed walked the edge for several years (I remember him behaving in a similar way since at least 2008 or so, probably even 2007), and while the actual happening did surprise me, it wasn't really unexpected. Just a question of time. On the other hand, while his tone was needlessly passive-aggressive and the attitude way too... spoiled, I guess?.. he did present solutions and feasible ideas every once in a while, as well as being vocal about issues that have plagued TASVideos with various intensity basically throughout its entire history: focus on lowering run time while disregarding the entertainment value, popularity-based game favoritism, obsession with severely limiting the amount of categories (something that to this day has no rational counterargument for), questionable judge decisions (something that happens every once in a while still, although not as often anymore), the trend of endorsing competition instead of collaboration, and so on. His being vocal on these issues is what I probably miss the most.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 9/1/2011 7:05 PM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
moozooh wrote:
His being vocal on these issues is what I probably miss the most.
Well, if it's any consolation, you always have me... ;)
Posted: 9/1/2011 7:44 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Haha, <3
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 9/2/2011 12:27 AM
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Flygon
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
Gee, and my contempt for everybody here isn't cool enough? Oh, gee whizz, thanks a lot.
Posted: 9/2/2011 4:43 AM
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jimsfriend
Former player
Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign
I'm sorry, who are you again?
Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign aqfaq Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign
Posted: 9/2/2011 4:45 AM
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Flygon
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
I can and will weaponize this Watermelon if you don't recognize me.
Posted: 9/4/2011 3:59 PM
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alden
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
lol jimsfriend wait, who am i
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
Posted: 9/4/2011 4:03 PM
Post subject: HI GUYS I'M DOUBLE POSTING
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alden
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
Also, moozooh's enumeration of issues is a wonderful concise list of my own gripes with this site. Well said sir. double posting is awesome imo
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
Posted: 9/4/2011 11:53 PM
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Kumquat
Player (121)
Joined: 8/11/2009
Posts: 73
Location: Texas
It was rude of me to basically say, "Xkeeper is going to be on our team even if you say no," even if it was just a joke, so I apologize to DarkKobold and anyone else who may have been bothered by my post. adelikat, thank you for allowing Xkeeper to participate in the Dream Team Contest and to submit movies again. I know he really cares about this community despite how he acts sometimes, so I hope that someday he will be able to return to the forums as well.
Posted: 9/5/2011 11:01 PM
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pirate_sephiroth
Active player (312)
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
New systems TAS of 2009
I'm tired. Let's settle this like the gentlemen we are. this one is for Xkeeper: and this one for the offended party
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.
Posted: 9/6/2011 5:21 AM
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Flygon
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
I like pirate_sephiroth's suggestion.
Posted: 9/6/2011 7:32 AM
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Pointless_Boy
Banned User
Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 183
After reading all of the examples linked in your OP, adelikat, the only thing that comes to mind is, "Really? You banned someone for that?" It really just sounds like you hate XKeeper for whatever reason, and can no longer objectively evaluate his posts. XKeeper obviously doesn't go out of his way to be nice, and is often snarky, condescending, and dismissive, but his posts seem downright innocuous to me. They are even sometimes helpful, for example when he pointed out the LUA rendering bug, or when he voiced opinions about how the site should be managed. Perhaps I'm an iron-skinned internet veteran, but mere snark, occasional curse words, and name calling are par for the course, in my opinion. Welcome to the internets. These very forums have countless examples of far worse, some of them quite recent, and it almost always goes unacknowledged. In fact, it seems the only time any action is ever taken is when some unfortunate forum member somehow gets under the skin of an admin, and that admin forms an irrational personal vendetta against the user. It's happened before, I'm almost certain it's what happened here, and it will no doubt happen again, but that doesn't make it right. So boo on you, adelikat. I don't expect you to change your opinions or your behavior, since people never do, but on the off chance you are an enlightened space being and not a person, here is a useful trick for ensuring you don't let negative personal emotions cloud your judgment and cause you to abuse your authority in the future: whenever someone or something's got you mad, pretend the source is someone you love. Are you married? Do you have a best friend? A child? Pick one. Consider how understanding and mediated your reaction would be in response to them. Now give everyone else (even the XKeepers of the world) the same consideration.
Posted: 9/6/2011 7:47 AM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Pointless Boy wrote:
Perhaps I'm an iron-skinned internet veteran, but mere snark, occasional curse words, and name calling are par for the course, in my opinion. Welcome to the internets.
I have to disagree on that point. In my opinion it doesn't really matter what the average behavior on "the internets" might be, that doesn't mean we should allow such things in this particular forum. This should be a friendly and enjoyable place, not the average free-for-all verbal battleground. Especially name-calling is egregious. We should treat other people with respect, as fellow human beings who have feelings and emotions. Carelessly insulting them is not acceptable. (Yes, I know I have fallen for this myself sometimes in the heat of the moment, and if I have ever called someone something offensive, I truly apologize. I try to avoid doing this as much as I can.) Cursewords are an edge case. If it's self-deprecating, then it's often ok (such as "I noticed that my run was really shitty, so I redid it from scratch"), but it becomes less ok when talking about others (such as "your run is shit"). It's preferable to avoid strong cursewords, though. As for Xkeeper's ban, I don't really have a strong opinion because I don't know the exact course of events. However, I get the impression that the ban came more or less as a surprise to him, and IMO more/clearer warnings could have been issued to him before enacting the ban. For example a private message explaining that his behavior is not acceptable and that if he doesn't correct it, he will be banned.
Posted: 9/6/2011 8:30 AM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Keep in mind that he would've avoided the ban longer had he not started voting no on every submission. That was the main trigger AFAIK.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 9/6/2011 10:32 AM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota 
I agree with Warp.  Holy hell, I actually wrote that.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 9/6/2011 11:39 AM
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TASManiac
Joined: 7/30/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Watching a TAS in the basement... 
I agree with Warp & Sticky.
I am the future ruler of the world! My forum: http://elderyoshisisland.forumotion.com/
Posted: 9/6/2011 6:58 PM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
Warp is spot on. We have no responsibility to allow people who negatively impact the site to continue using the site, and will do everything within our power to prevent them from doing so.
[22:36] <Xkeeper4400> Anyway, as for acknowledging I was an asshole: Um. Duh? I thought that was the whole point. [22:36] <Xkeeper4400> Of course I was an asshole. [22:37] <Xkeeper4400> Anyway, sorry for being an asshole. Maybe one day you can change tasvideos policies so that it doesn't have to go to that. who knows.
I think this comment by the person in question makes it clear enough to me. #1, He intended to be an asshole. Do we, as a community, want people who have every intention of being an asshole? Do the administrators have the right to remove people who are consistently negative to a community? #2, He states that it is not his fault that he is an asshole, it is clearly the policies of the site. Is there really no other option? The idea that he is not at fault at all reminds me far too much of this. Perhaps it is just because I was reading about it last night. #3, He obviously has no interest in changing his behavior, since it is in no way his fault he is an asshole on a routine basis, it is the site's fault.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 9/6/2011 7:15 PM
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Cheezwizz
Joined: 11/2/2007
Posts: 103
Hey, now I have all the proof I need that this is a community of babies that make horrible decisions because not only have I been witness to each and every one, it's gotten to a point where you actually fucking banned someone for being victim of the constant stupidity and irrationality that comes of it. GOOD JOB TASVIDEOS BEST WEBSITE I have to give this website a no vote for bad idea decision. where's the website grue so we can remove it from the internet?
Posted: 9/6/2011 7:35 PM
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CoolKirby
Editor, Experienced player (569)
Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4035
Exotic platforms TASer of 2014 NES TAS of 2013
Cheezwizz wrote:
it's gotten to a point where you actually fucking banned someone
He was banned a while ago; where were you?
Posted: 9/6/2011 7:41 PM
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Noxxa
They/Them
Moderator, Expert player (4108)
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
Exotic platforms TASer of 2018 Exotic platforms TAS of 2018 Exotic platforms TASer of 2017 Exotic platforms TAS of 2017 Exotic platforms TAS of 2017 Exotic platforms TASer of 2016 Exotic platforms TAS of 2016 Gameboy TASer of 2013
Cheezwizz wrote:
Hey, now I have all the proof I need that this is a community of babies that make horrible decisions because not only have I been witness to each and every one, it's gotten to a point where you actually fucking banned someone for being victim of the constant stupidity and irrationality that comes of it. GOOD JOB TASVIDEOS BEST WEBSITE I have to give this website a no vote for bad idea decision. where's the website grue so we can remove it from the internet?
Yes, because if someone is OBVIOUSLY detrimental to the website and its community, behaves as such INTENTIONALLY, and is most definitely NOT willing to improve, actually getting rid of the problem, rather than continuing to put up with an obvious and self-admitted asshole, is the worst decision ever. Idiot.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 9/6/2011 7:42 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Cool down, both of you.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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