Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
antd wrote:
Brutalal has created a spreadsheet that plots the optimal path (in terms of number of steps needed to run through a field). It details exactly when you will encounter a random battle and allows many configurable options on how to avoid them.
The problem is there are many ways of getting away from a battle:
1. Accept the battle and instant escape (685 frames)
This also reduces the danger counter to 0 (you get more battles as the danger counter rises)
2. Menu glitch (83 frames)
This glitch avoids a battle but the danger counter remains (eg, if you do 20 menu glitches in a row, you'll be getting a battle every few steps)
3. Stutter Walk (x frames)
This is clearly the fastest way to avoid a battle. The danger counter remains. The spreadsheet calculates how much stuttering is needed. You lose time for every stutter, but it is a tiny amount.
So we know that the battles are entirely deterministic and we even have a spreadsheet which shows the field lengths and when the battle will occur.
This is a segment in the game. The X axis are the steps and the Y axis is the danger counter. The white lines are the battles. You get a battle when the red line hits a white line.
What we need help with is in calculating the fastest way to avoid battles. In other words, should I menu glitch, stutter (sometimes not possible, easy to see when it is or not possible) or accept+escape a battle.
So, I want to know the fastest way through the segment I just posted above. Ideally we will need to optimise the data not just for one segment but for the entire game.
Anyone that can give ideas on how to accomplish this?
This is a very interesting problem. Where's the spreadsheet?
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
Lil_Gecko wrote:
?
Yep, stutter makes the red line rise less quickly.
Menu glitch: Enter the menu on the exact frame you get a battle. This removes the battle or white line.
Hmm, technically no automatic battles. But in practice there will be white lines everywhere once you reach very high danger values. Resets to 0 after 65535.
We haven't found anyway of resetting the danger value yet (only resets when you Save (slow) or enter a battle)
---
Actually DarkKobold is right. If a menu glitch is used, then you'll have to get into a battle before a boss. Using a menu glitch creates a repeating boss battle if you don't enter a battle before a fighting a boss.
---
amaurea wrote:
Edit: Ok, I have implemented my idea now. The implementation (C++) can be found here. I had to guess some of the factors needed, and I didn't have the encounter sequence available, so I generated one randomly in the program. This means that you can't just run the program and use it directly - you have to fill in the correct encounter sequence and costs. So really, this is just a demonstration of an algorithm that solves the problem brute force, but hopefully still fast enough.
I'm not sure how long the segments will be. It seems they will be fewer than 6000 steps.
Thanks! I'll try to compile.
If anyone wants the spreadsheet data, you can PM Brutalal for it (it is his creation)
http://tasvideos.org/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3648
I'm not sure how long the segments will be. It seems they will be fewer than 6000 steps.
Note that what number of steps is the effective limit depends on the specifics of how the danger level increases and what scale the encounter sequence is on, so 6000 does not have to be too much. It is probably more helpful to look at the number of encounters you would have without any tricks. This is about 20 for the 3 second example I displayed.
It would be possible to implement this in lua too. It would be a bit shorter but much slower.
Hi there!
Are here steps = battle checks? If this is the case, stuttering should lead to higher amount of battle checks for one segment. As there are eight mini steps for one real step (right?), 1/8 of a real step is walking. So you have to know how this is translating into frame and way loss – way loss in the sense of number of battle checks for one distinct distance (like the distance to cross a screen). Is this correct?
Additionally, one segment should theoretically go till a danger counter reset happens. Seeing that only a reset or a random battle can reset the danger counter, this results in huge segments, like till a disc change or in the worst case till the end.
What about the escape time. Are you able to always run away with that frame loss even you get a special battle formation or a having a higher run difficulty?
Also the unescapable encounters due to boss battles or places where you don’t want have an encounter should be considered.
There is probably more to consider, but I’m out of touch with the actual game.
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
This script worked in the beginning of the game for skipping text boxes:
Dialog= 0x000832A0;
while true do
for i = 0,5,1 do
X = memory.readbyte(Dialog+i*0x30);
X = X % 8;
if (X == 6) or (X == 4) then
joypad.set(1,{["circle"]=true})
end;
end;
emu.frameadvance();
end;
But now it no longer works.
If anyone has coding experience, can you modify it so it works for this section of the game?
Here's the savestate:
www.vgarchives.com/sites/default/files/games/saves/FINALFANTA.000
What is the plan going forward with this run? Are you using the memory corruption type glitch, or doing a more normal run without extreme glitches?
Is the route planned out? If so, can you post it? I hope the analysis I did for the first CD helped with minimum amount of grenades to buy and what not and where you can get the alternatively for faster. *cough* skip the damn garden ether already!
Was CC skip ever figured out, 1 how to do it, and 2 if you can complete the game after doing it? I'd love to this this in the run as it seems like a very legit and straight forward shortcut which skips a rather uninteresting and and inconsequential portion of the game.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
This only takes into account the time saved escaping all boss battles and skipping gongaga.
All times are compared to lolo's videos of 'optimal real-time strategies'.
=Already Completed=
*Guard Scorpion [save 80 seconds]
*Air Buster [save 23 seconds]
==================================
=Wall Market=
Skip ether and hyper
*Aps [save 73 seconds]
Steal materia: Skip
=Slums revisted=
Skip Hi-potion
*Reno [save 58 seconds]
=Shina HQ=
Skip forced battle
Skip elevator battles
Skip Mighty Grunt [save 43 seconds]
#Floor 67#
Poison materia: Skip
#Floor 68#
*Sample: HO512 [save 70 seconds]
Enemy skill: Skip
#To The Top#
*Hundred/Heli Gunner [save 161 seconds]
*Rufus [save 51 seconds]
#The Escape#
*Motorball [save 138 seconds]
=Kalm=
#The Flashback Part 1#
Sephy vs dragon [Skip possible? - sephy or y.cloud glitched limit?]
=Crossing the Marshes=
Skip equip
=Junon=
*Bottomswell [save 93 seconds]
=Junon City=
Marching: +5000 Gil
Win forcestealer [maybe sell later if money is needed]
=Shinra Boat=
Skip equip
*Jenova Death [save 157 seconds]
=Costa Del Sol=
Skip villa [save 22 seconds]
=Mt. Corel=
Skip Right Arms
=North Corel=
Skip Selling [save 4 seconds - we have 5000+ gil already]
=Corel Prison=
*Dyne [save 13 seconds]
=Cosmo Canyon=
Skip Sneaky Steps/Death sentence [save 26 seconds]
Skip Stinger 1 [save 20 seconds]
Skip Stinger 2 [save 44 seconds]
*Gi Nattak [save 49 seconds]
=Mt Nibel=
Skip equip
*Materia Keeper [save 40 seconds]
=Rocket Town=
Skip buying
*Palmer [save 86 seconds]
=Gold Saucer=
Forced to 'fight' battle square [untested - waste 80 seconds]
Skip Flapbeats [save 38 seconds]
=Gongaga=
Skip town - Don't visit for Deathblow materia [unknown - save min. 60 seconds]
=Temple of Ancients=
*Red Dragon [save 42 seconds]
*Demon's Gate [save 107 seconds]
=Bone Village=
Skip elixir, enemy skill
Skip equip
*Jenova Life [save 44 seconds]
=Adventures in the Snow=
Skip Magic Plus materia
=Great Glacier=
Skip Snow/Circlet [save 12 seconds]
Skip equip
=Gaea's Cliff=
*Stilva [save 23 seconds]
*Evil Heads [save 156 seconds]
Skip enhanced sword/equip
*Schizo [save 106 seconds]
=Whirlwind Maze=
*Jenova Death [save 45 seconds]
Skip poison ring
=Mideel=
Skip selling
=North Corel=
skip equip
*Train battles [save 131 seconds]
=Mideel/Lifestream=
*Ultimate Weapon [save 43 seconds]
Skip equip
=Junon Underwater Reactor=
need 10 gil for elevator man
*Carry Armor [save 42 seconds]
=Rocket Town + More=
*Rude [save 28 seconds]
*Diamond weapon [save 76 seconds]
=Return to Midgar=
Skip equip
*Turks [save 53 seconds]
*Proud Clod [save 56 seconds]
*Hojo [unknown - save 96 seconds]
=Northern Crater=
*Jenova Synthesis [save 56 seconds]
*Bizarro-Sephiroth [save 116 seconds]
*Safer-Sephiroth [save 154 seconds]
--
Estimated Min. time saved = 2729 seconds (45.483 minutes)
If as fast as Farringa's run:
estimated worst end time = 6 hours 55 minutes
Depends if the PSX version can keep up with the PC version.
There are tons of other time savers that are not in this estimation: Eg. general TAS playing and non-battle time savers.
So it relying on a crit-hit strat since it'd skipping for deathblow for some of those battles in the middle there, like Palmer I think. I it was 1 or 2 luck short of having a chance for some of those, I don't know if you found a way to get higher stats or are getting a +1 luck somewhere?
And I couldn't tell from this, is it Skipping CC, it'd a be real shame to plan all this other stuff in massive detail but neglect CC skip for lack more CC skip testing.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
Btw, im talking about the "data error" or glitched run. There will not be any battle actions:
Http://www.YouTube.com/antdgar3
I've tried skipping Cosmo canyon and i could not find a way.
Nobody has reproduced it and no reputable source has witnessed it. The only source seems to be that random video.
So is there much planning or thinking involved in this "data glitch" run besides trying to avoid random encounters as with any run? Is it basically just luck manipulation and optimal random encounter strategy while running in optimal lines?
If so, I'll come back to this when an actual interesting run is in progress that involves more route planning, thinking, and interesting strategies, completing the game as we played it, without "data glitches"
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
I know this is probably a stupid question, but how does enemy lure effect the above chart?
Depending on what exactly it changes, it might actually help manipulate when/if random encounters happen, but that all depends on how it works.
(apologies if this has been asked before)
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
Glitched run is only for the fastest time. Nothing else. It will act as a benchmark until better glitches are found.
People in the speed running community are curious to know the fastest time possible. So am I.
Enemy lure only affects world map battles. The chart only shows field battles.
All world map battles can be avoided simply by changing direction for one frame, so no time loss and no strategy needed. Field battles are where the strategy is required.
I don't think anybody has asked that question :-D
Enemy Away definitely works on the field maps, but I guess it won’t save more time then it wastes time to obtain it.
What about the time/way loss while stuttering? It seems that the way loss of 3/32 per whole stutter and thus the potential need for additional battle checks isn’t considered. Or could it be that I’m seeing it wrong?
Is that one video really the only source for CC skip? Has anyone contacted that guy? Do we have no information on it?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Not sure if that CC skip video is real anymore. Making a fake video wouldn't be hard, especially when there's no sound. Nobody else has been able to reproduce it, I've tried it myself with saving/loading states no success.
One way to make see if it's possible is getting the buggy location, camera angle and just trying every combination. Whether this is practical or you need a lua script..?
If it is real there may be something else that has to be done previously to 'enable' it.
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9gKdr37gsI
this is antd (i suppose everything posted today will be interpreted as april fool's)
combined with the data error glitch we should be looking at sub 4 hours at least
i'm in the middle of a draft run using only manually tested warps
(and yes I'll continue to work on the non-warp run)
i will need lua scripting help for finding the most optimal warps though (pm me if you can help: http://tasvideos.org/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1936)
once my username is back i'll post more
That could make the run under 2 hours probably, but no Aeris...even if you have a memory warp glitch, you can't warp across disks to avoid the Jenova at the end of disc 1...the presence of gameshark alone makes me doubt the video...
That could make the run under 2 hours probably, but no Aeris...even if you have a memory warp glitch, you can't warp across disks to avoid the Jenova at the end of disc 1...the presence of gameshark alone makes me doubt the video...
I may be mistaken, but it seems quite unlikely Aeris is removed from the game as a party member when she dies and you fight Jenova. All that should have to be avoided is the point at which she leaves your party, which is when Sephiroth gets the black materia IIRC. Skip that scene and she shouldn't be gone, even if everyone in the party seems to think so.
Also, if this were an April Fools' joke or a fake video, why even mention a gameshark at all? If you wanted to trick people, you wouldn't let them know a cheat device was involved in the first place. (And I don't actually see where a gameshark is mentioned, anyway, but I'll assume I missed that since you apparently saw it.)
Ah sweet, my hunch was right about off by 1 errors with start on exact frames and frame precise events. This game seems to be riddled with off by 1 errors. Let the paradigm shifts begin.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
That could make the run under 2 hours probably, but no Aeris...even if you have a memory warp glitch, you can't warp across disks to avoid the Jenova at the end of disc 1...the presence of gameshark alone makes me doubt the video...
I may be mistaken, but it seems quite unlikely Aeris is removed from the game as a party member when she dies and you fight Jenova. All that should have to be avoided is the point at which she leaves your party, which is when Sephiroth gets the black materia IIRC. Skip that scene and she shouldn't be gone, even if everyone in the party seems to think so.
Also, if this were an April Fools' joke or a fake video, why even mention a gameshark at all? If you wanted to trick people, you wouldn't let them know a cheat device was involved in the first place. (And I don't actually see where a gameshark is mentioned, anyway, but I'll assume I missed that since you apparently saw it.)
Am I missing something? Are you arguing the video is genuine, or is my reading comprehension that low?
The most damning evidence is that the video contains the tags "April's", "Fool", and "Prank". That's not my favorite piece of evidence, though. My favorite is when he says, "Let's look at what a warp-glitched Speed Run could look like. Notice the time." And what is the time? 4:01:12. (And I just noticed it has 40,112 gil to boot!)
Well played, sir. Well played.
This may only happen on the pc version, and I have no idea how to replicate it as it was long before I have herd of speed runs, but anyway...
In Junon lift area, I managed to ride the lift up (or down?) and I ended up in the submarine area. No idea what happened or how.
I think I also did something weird with the alarm in that area but my mind might be playing tricks on me.
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
That was a nice April fools video!
In other news: The glitched run might not be able to progress very far. I was just testing an alternative Wall Market strat and the game crashes after the battles with Corneo's friends (infinite black screen)
Luckily this battle is avoided by having Cloud picked by the Don. But who knows where the next unavoidable crash may lie :-P
I have a bad feeling about the forced Battle Square battle(s).
Close to finding any more glitches? Post some videos if you can, even it's useless now, could inspire people and spawn new ideas, get more followers and eventually contributors.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
This is a segment in the game. The X axis are the steps and the Y axis is the danger counter. The white lines are the battles. You get a battle when the red line hits a white line. What we need help with is in calculating the fastest way to avoid battles. In other words, should I menu glitch, stutter (sometimes not possible, easy to see when it is or not possible) or accept+escape a battle. So, I want to know the fastest way through the segment I just posted above. Ideally we will need to optimise the data not just for one segment but for the entire game. Anyone that can give ideas on how to accomplish this?
