The rocks will only break if you throw them into a wall. Go test it.
gfdsgldhgildsghldrsihgldshg. No idea if that's actually faster then just carrying it, but i'll test it.
Rolling is by and large, mostly optimal. Even if it doesn't look perfect, it usually is. It has to be relatively far off to actually lose any time. There are probably some small improvements here and there, but they are definitely minimal.
I noticed quite a few improvements. Do you want me to point all of them
Please do.
And by the way, there actually is some luck manipulation involved in goat herding before it starts. The goats will start facing different directions which changes which way they go when you start to herd them.
I did not notice any such thing, but i'll test it more.
I did not notice any such thing, but i'll test it more.
Please, no more goat herding! You were actually making progress!
In all seriousness, do as you please. My stance (which is everyone's stance, whether they realize it or not) is that there is an inherent tradeoff between how much effort you put into something and how many frames it will save, and this tradeoff must be acknowledged and respected. If 20 hours could be spent herding goats to save 10 frames but those same 20 hours could just as well be spent making small optimizations throughout the run to save 100 frames, I think it's clear what should be done. You can't squeeze blood from a stone-- you're never going to save more than a handful of additional frames herding goats. If you think it's worth it to you and you have the stamina to optimize that portion of the game, by all means, herd goats. I'd like to see a finished run, however, even if it's slightly suboptimal.
I did not notice any such thing, but i'll test it more.
Please, no more goat herding! You were actually making progress!
In all seriousness, do as you please. My stance (which is everyone's stance, whether they realize it or not) is that there is an inherent tradeoff between how much effort you put into something and how many frames it will save, and this tradeoff must be acknowledged and respected. If 20 hours could be spent herding goats to save 10 frames but those same 20 hours could just as well be spent making small optimizations throughout the run to save 100 frames, I think it's clear what should be done. You can't squeeze blood from a stone-- you're never going to save more than a handful of additional frames herding goats. If you think it's worth it to you and you have the stamina to optimize that portion of the game, by all means, herd goats. I'd like to see a finished run, however, even if it's slightly suboptimal.
Well, if throwing the rock ends up being faster (which honestly i don't think it will be, but i need to test it), then i'll have to redo it, if they don't always start in the same position, since it won't hex.
Tried this some (read: a lot) more and just got it to work:
Link to video
Saves 5-10 frames, not sure yet. Might be a few frames faster if i can get it with a jump instead of a sidehop, but so far no luck.
edit: spoke too soon, got it with a jump, and saved 10 additional frames. I'll update the video once i'm done optimizing it further.
edit2: video up, should be 18 +/- 1 frames faster.
mkay... a couple things in general first. You might already know some of this but just in case you don't.
I don't think it's best to roll on the first frame possible. In my run I always run for a couple steps before I start rolling. I admit I haven't actually done any testing with this, but it feels to me like if you accelerate first the rolls are much faster. And since this game is based on Wind Waker's engine, and the exact same effect is very very noticeable in Wind Waker, it would make sense if it was true. (It also feels to me like if you roll on the first frame possible then you'll maintain your speed, but again, haven't done any extensive testing; just going off feel.) Your rolling doesn't look too bad for the most part, just something to keep in mind (and maybe do some more definite testing on?).
Also, wolf dashing. You might've noticed sometimes when you dash and jump off a ledge, sometimes you can dash again immediately when you land, and sometimes you have to wait for it to "recharge". This has to do with how close you are to the ledge when you dash. If you jump immediately after doing the dash, then you'll be able to dash again immediately when you land. If you take more than... maybe half a second after dashing, you'll have to wait. So sometimes (like at 11:08) you'll want to avoid dashing until you get closer to a ledge so you don't get stuck at walking speed for a couple seconds. Like with the rolling, you don't seem to be bad about this overall, just something to keep in mind.
I'm also gonna echo what a few other people have already said and say the running parts don't look too optimal. It mostly looks that way because you keep making little adjustments to your angle instead of going in a straight line. I won't dwell on that too much because I know you've already heard it from several others tho.
6:13: The sumoing didn't look optimal to me. Is it impossible to just immediately grab him without any extra animations all four times? I'd guess you've already done some testing on this, but eh.
7:36: The dialogue with Colin teleports you in front of him, so you'll want to get to the dialogue trigger ASAP rather than head towards Ordon Spring.
8:33: After you dig out of the cell you get one frame of movement so you can jump into a wall or something. Makes no difference time-wise, but it would be entertaining :P
8:52: I'd just drop off that ledge instead of jumping (let go of the control stick just before you walk off the ledge). You'll touch the ground quicker and be closer to where you're going next.
9:24: I'm confused why you went all the way around to the ledge on the right side instead of getting out of the water on the left side and running the rest of the way to the switch. Swimming is not very fast.
10:38: You can do a fast Midna jump here. Generally speaking, you can do one on every jump where Midna talks before the jump.
10:46: You can skip this dialogue if you hold L and jump on the first frame possible.
11:08: Already pointed out earlier, but you should wait to dash til you get closer to the ledge so you can run up the sloped thing.
11:13: Again, you can do a fast Midna jump here.
11:42: er, what was with that little jump? :P
12:06: This might already be completely optimal, but the Bulblin can end up in different spots by the time you get here - not sure whether he spawns in different places or if he walks there after spawning - but in any case, you'll want him to be closest to you.
12:41: This part didn't look optimal :x Did you try locking onto him and pushing him in a straight line to where you want? Similar to how I did it in my run. Judging by the timestamps it doesn't seem there's much difference between them, but...
13:31: The game does this little freeze every time you hit an enemy. It might be faster to wait til they get closer so you can use just one spin attack to hit all three of them at once, which would mean you only get one little freeze instead of two or three.
14:17: It's much faster to exit out of the map screen by hitting D-left/right.
14:45: Is that faster than running straight toward the end of the ledge and climbing up? Doesn't look like it...
14:49: You can do a fast Midna jump here
15:20: Video seems to be removed <_< but apparently you can clip through this gate by locking onto a bug on the other side and jumping at it to go through.
15:30: Did you make sure you actually killed both bugs? Only heard one die :x
15:56: Again, fast Midna jump here.
Rest looks good. You did EMS very well, I like these Midna jump skips and the TAS'd text is amazing :P
I'll test rolls. and thanks for the info on wolf dashing.
1. Wasn't possible as far as i could tell.
2. It didn't seem to matter which way i went.
3. eh?
4. Don't think so, but i didn't really test it perfectly, i'll do so later.
5. As far as i can tell, i jumped on the first possible frame. unless there's something else that needs to be done other than just L+A?
6. doh, thanks.
7. got it.
8. #5.
9. luck manipulation. The bokoblin kept spawning wayyy back, and faced away, making it impossible to get his attention without running past him. I'll try to fix that without losing any time.
10. see above.
11. That was the best i could do after a couple hundred attempts. I'll try some more since i'll probably need to redo it anyway.
12. doh, didn't even notice that the one got hit before the others. This is where sound would have helped, but fuck dolphin's 5-10 fps.
13. herpaderp
14. again.
15. interesting, i'll look into that.
16. Not sure if you were listening, they both very clearly die.
Thanks for the tips, i really appreciate it.
The game does this little freeze every time you hit an enemy.
For future reference, there's a term for that effect :)
Hit Stop
But are you sure the game doesn't just queue up the Hit Stop time? I know OoT doesn't but I think WW does, and if the engines are similar...
8:52: I'd just drop off that ledge instead of jumping (let go of the control stick just before you walk off the ledge). You'll touch the ground quicker and be closer to where you're going next.
9:24: I'm confused why you went all the way around to the ledge on the right side instead of getting out of the water on the left side and running the rest of the way to the switch. Swimming is not very fast.
Redid both of these. Saved a few frames on the first, and quite a lot on the latter (~2 seconds, not sure exactly yet).
Can you explain what you mean by a fast midna jump? As far as i can tell, i did them all perfect, and they appear to be the same as what you did in your segmented run.
It's what you did at the first jump at 10:10. You get one frame where you can jump earlier than usual on jumps where Midna has dialogue before the jump. The reason they're not in my run is because they're frame-specific tricks that don't save much time so I never forced myself to get them, and just ended up with terrible luck and missed every one of them. :P TpFox got a couple more of them in his run. See
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK82t46v7vE#t=3m22s (there's also the other one at the top of the tower in this segment that he didn't get)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWVUIxUwRhI#t=2m10shttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59nM1M0uGMU#t=0m18s
It just seems to me as though you just did what you thought was the fastest method without testing to see if there's a faster way.
Also it seems that a large portion of the WIP so far was done not using frame advance, but just using Dolphin's slow speeds. In some cases, this isn't a problem, but usually doing everything on the first frame possible (rolls, etc.) is faster. It's clear that in some spots you did put effort into doing stuff on the first frame (14:43), but there really isn't any consistency.
but despite the obvious (small) improvable parts of the TAS so far, it's been done really well. Definitely looking forward to seeing some of the more interesting sections of the run (It's gonna be a while, but CitS is gonna be annihilated)
EDIT: by rolls, I mean the constant rolling, not the first roll. I'm pretty sure it is faster to wait a bit first, as people have said. :P
It just seems to me as though you just did what you thought was the fastest method without testing to see if there's a faster way.
I tested everything i could think of that seemed like it could even possibly be faster. I obviously did not consider everything, so if you've got any ideas that would be worth testing, i'd love to hear them.
ptorflaxendrosis wrote:
Also it seems that a large portion of the WIP so far was done not using frame advance, but just using Dolphin's slow speeds. In some cases, this isn't a problem, but usually doing everything on the first frame possible (rolls, etc.) is faster. It's clear that in some spots you did put effort into doing stuff on the first frame (14:43), but there really isn't any consistency.
Everything requiring more input than just running around (which was often, but not always, just done with slow down) was always done with frame advance to get it as soon as possible. If there's anything specific you see that could be improved, please do share.
rog: given that this game hasn't been properly TAS'd (that I know of) why not do a test run first and not worry too much about optimization just yet? It's quite likely you may find additional time-saving techniques late in the run that you'll wish you could have used earlier.
rog: given that this game hasn't been properly TAS'd (that I know of) why not do a test run first and not worry too much about optimization just yet? It's quite likely you may find additional time-saving techniques late in the run that you'll wish you could have used earlier.
Eh, maybe. Even a really quick test run take a few weeks to do, and i really wouldn't expect to get much value out of a quick run like that. This would be the first tas, but a quite a bit of glitch hunting has been done, as well a number of speedruns. It might be useful, but probably not too much, and i know i'd have a difficult time staying motivated to even work on a run that is intentionally shitty.
In the sewers, looks like jumping over the stairs saves a good chunk of time. If you land at the very edge of the stairs, you'll warp forward, saving about 4 frames per jump.
Link to video
About 10-15 frames faster than climbing up at the end.
Interestingly, if the scene here starts while you are hanging off the edge, midna will not talk to you until you climb back up.
Throwing the rock is a little more than half the speed of just carrying it, not sure why anyone thought that could ever make sense to do.
What about carrying the rock and then throwing it once so it lands right in front of the gate? (I've done this for fun in runs before, but it might not be any faster)
Throwing the rock is a little more than half the speed of just carrying it, not sure why anyone thought that could ever make sense to do.
What about carrying the rock and then throwing it once so it lands right in front of the gate? (I've done this for fun in runs before, but it might not be any faster)
This appears to take exactly the same time.
If i ever end up having a compelling reason to redo anything before goat herding, i'll change it, but otherwise i'm not redoing the goats for something that doesn't even save any time.
New sword/shield skip:
Link to video
HOW DO PEOPLE DO THIS IN REAL TIME!?
This shit is almost as bad as goats. Might be able to save like 5 more frames here, but goddamn do i not want to keep doing this.
