Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
I'm not sure if this exists, but I figured someone might be able to help:
I'm looking for an HDTV that I can play "old" games on (old being anything pre HD; NES, PS2, what have you). The HDTV I have now will of course work, but there are a couple things that make games unplayable:
• Lag. It's tiny, but it's there, and it ruins certain games.
• Picture looks horrible. Instead of rendering each pixel as a square, it's almost like each pixel is a mashup of the pixels around it. It's sort of interpolated or something, in a really really bad way. Note that this is NOT from failure to switch from widescreen. It's also not because the graphics are "outdated" or incompatible. Emulated games (e.g. the Genesis version of Sonic the Hedgehog, on XBox Live) will look fine, as long as they are being run on an HD system.
I have an old CRT television that I use to play games on, but it's heavy and takes up a lot of room. If I could switch everything to a single tv and actually have all my games playable, I would be happy. Does such an HDTV exist?
Most Samsung models have extreme input lag. I haven't tested this year's E models with games yet, but last year's D models of CFL and LED backlit LCDs all had horrible input lag. All of the 2010 C models were pretty bad. Last year's D series plasmas, though, have relatively low input lag, and input lag that is comparable to better displays on the market.
Most new TVs will probably have bad input lag out of the box as more and more image processing features are added.
I'm highly sensitive to input lag, and I don't notice it on my PN59D7000 (Samsung 59" High End Plasma), which is fed and scaled from my Denon AVR-3808CI receiver (Faroudja scaler) or from my HTPC. The Samsung TV scaler is also pretty good, and the image processing is excellent, making older games and video sources look quite good. (The only two complains I have about this model are that the size is great for video, but bad for gaming...don't worry about size too much if gaming is your #1 thing! And the buzzing of Samsung's higher end D series plasmas is annoying. PQ is simply fantastic.)
Sharp universally is bad for games, due to their PVA family architecture. Even though input lag is actually kept pretty low on some models, this isn't true for most, and there is far more motion blur than other panel types. This really hurts for older games that scroll sideways, like platformers.
LG, Panasonic and Vizio have a number of models that do not exhibit terrible input latency, with picture quality to price roughly in reverse order.
I refuse to buy Sony. That said, 2011 and newer year models are finally starting to look good again. I can't say anything about input lag.
Your best bet is to look for sets that are in your price and size range, appeal to you, then check online for input lag and motion blur results. It also depends on if the TV will have other purpose (Samsung has been the best for the past 3+ years for picture quality, but among the worst for input lag).
Picture looks horrible. Instead of rendering each pixel as a square, it's almost like each pixel is a mashup of the pixels around it. It's sort of interpolated or something, in a really really bad way. Note that this is NOT from failure to switch from widescreen. It's also not because the graphics are "outdated" or incompatible. Emulated games (e.g. the Genesis version of Sonic the Hedgehog, on XBox Live) will look fine, as long as they are being run on an HD system.
Yeah, this is how it works. But when it is done well, you shouldn't notice it. Samsung is really good at making old games look nice, but again, most models have high input lag. My 50" Toshiba 1080p DLP looks smoothed out, which is typical of a DLP, but also looks somewhat like a CRT and it also does old games fairly well. My 50" Fujitsu is medicore in image reproduction.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6342
Location: The land down under.
another idea is to buy a HDTV and actually buy a dvd recorder with HDMI out. I notice that I don't have any lag on my tv with the DVD recorder and also you can do speedruns with the DVD recorder when you put the avi cables in :D
True wrote:
I'm highly sensitive to input lag, and I don't notice it on my PN59D7000 (Samsung 59" High End Plasma)
Hey I think we have the same TV :D
Okay so here is a top 5 I'm look at on T3 mag (Australia) issue 134 thanks to my dad who bought it and was going to throw it in the trash then I grabbed it from the recycle bunch we have before we put it in the bin.
Samsung UA55D8000
Sony Bravia KDL-46HX280
LG 55LW-6500
Sharp Aquos LC-40LE834 x
Panasonic Viera TX-P5OGT30
I honestly DONT recommend the Sony Bravia range as on a PS3 if you play a PS1 game you would notice a bit of lag I don't know why that's the case there was a HDMI (speed) cable running from the PS3 to the Bravia so who knows.
These are all compatibly with RGB cables don't know about the Sharp model as all it shows was the side and front not the back
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
Thank you all for the great responses! True, it seems like you know exactly what I'm talking about, so I'll definitely come back to your post when it's finally time to upgrade.
Is there any (good) reason that most HDTVs can't just render images from AV cables as normal pixels rather than interpolating them? It seems like it should be straightforward, but then again I don't know much about how televisions work.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
That's because the signal from the hardware is doing the interpolation itself. The game system is expecting an analogue CRT with interlaced scanlines and tries to compensate for that; if played on said TV, you really won't notice it much. Instead, it meets a digital progressive scan HDTV, and trying to reconcile those two doesn't work well.
Emulators bypass the issue because they take the graphics and interpret them into a digital, progressive scan image, perfect square pixels and all. Much more compatible with HDTVs.
This leads me to ask, is it possible to perform surgery on a console, and replace it's video signal processor with something that puts out a digital signal?
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Is there any (good) reason that most HDTVs can't just render images from AV cables as normal pixels rather than interpolating them? It seems like it should be straightforward, but then again I don't know much about how televisions work.
The first reason is that analog television signal does not carry pixels. There is no information whatsoever about the precise geometry of a single picture element. The second reason is that all signals are stretched to the height and width of the TV (or your stretching preference), and everything that is not the precise fit of the 1920x1080 matrix will inevitably be interpolated; there is no way around that with the TV alone.
If you want to make it look less horrible, get an upconverter, such as the XRGB-3. They use better low-res upscaling algorithms than most HDTVs and deinterlace the image better and faster. Prepare to pay anything between 150$ and 600$, though.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Emulators bypass the issue because they take the graphics and interpret them into a digital, progressive scan image, perfect square pixels and all. Much more compatible with HDTVs.
Be weary of TV's not supporting PS1/early PS2 games in combination with Component A/V. (PS1 games have to be run via a PS2 console to exhibit the problem, I don't believe the PS1 has component A/V out?)
Various TV's either will display a blank image, a single corrupt video frame or will display it perfectly but with an error message stuck on screen saying the signal is unsupported even though everything is perfectly clear and looking fine behind the occluding error message.
A good game to test with/google, would be Disgaea.
Be weary of TV's not supporting PS1/early PS2 games in combination with Component A/V. (PS1 games have to be run via a PS2 console to exhibit the problem, I don't believe the PS1 has component A/V out?)
My PS1 has A/V cables. I am pretty sure PS1 and PS2 cables are interchangeable.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Be weary of TV's not supporting PS1/early PS2 games in combination with Component A/V. (PS1 games have to be run via a PS2 console to exhibit the problem, I don't believe the PS1 has component A/V out?)
My PS1 has A/V cables. I am pretty sure PS1 and PS2 cables are interchangeable.
PS1, PS2, and PS3 cables are all interchangeable, much like the SNES, N64, and GCN all are (well, for them composite only, since the GCN component cables had a different end to them).
Emulators bypass the issue because they take the graphics and interpret them into a digital, progressive scan image, perfect square pixels and all. Much more compatible with HDTVs.
In which case, the display still receives a digital, progressive scan image. Wat.
You're mildly wrong on this point. You can get all pedantic if you want by making me aware of an emulator that doesn't output through graphics routines a progressive scan image or one without square pixels and such, but that isn't what shaders / filters do. It's still a progressive scan output.
franpa wrote:
Be weary of TV's not supporting PS1/early PS2 games in combination with Component A/V. (PS1 games have to be run via a PS2 console to exhibit the problem, I don't believe the PS1 has component A/V out?)
Various TV's either will display a blank image, a single corrupt video frame or will display it perfectly but with an error message stuck on screen saying the signal is unsupported even though everything is perfectly clear and looking fine behind the occluding error message.
A good game to test with/google, would be Disgaea.
Interesting to know. My Denon upscales PSX games from my slim PS2 via component fine. Interestingly, though, it wouldn't work with S-Video from my Saturn...
The alternative of course is to have a composite set for such games. Or, in my case when I really want to feel nostalgic, a couple of spare Playstations =)
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
Sir VG wrote:
much like the SNES, N64, and GCN all are
I only realized I could use them on the SNES a few years after getting an N64. I was so happy.
Much much later I realized there was a video and audio out on the side of my NES.
I really hated reaching awkwardly behind my tv and trying to screw something in at a weird angle.
Come to think of it, I still have to do this when I want to play Genesis.
The alternative of course is to have a composite set for such games. Or, in my case when I really want to feel nostalgic, a couple of spare Playstations =)
You'd think so but on at least my TV, PS1 and PS2 games that don't display properly via Component A/V will, when run via composite A/V, look absolutly terrible with everything fuzzy to the max.
@Sir VG: Thanks for the information :)
