Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Anyone else play way too much of this already? Blizz really knocked it out of the park
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Noxxa
They/Them
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Joined: 8/14/2009
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They released it at the worst time possible, at a time where a lot of people (including me) are too busy with final exams to play. So yeah, I haven't played it yet. If it was released at a different time, I probably would have.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Releasing it at the wrong time is the least thing Blizzard's top management has done wrong with this game. So I decided not to bother.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
I've spent way too much time in D2, several of its mods, and its community, probably reached 5k character levels in total, wrote several guides, calculators, researched game formulas, and generally just wasted a huge chunk of my life on it. Now D3 is released and I just can't bring myself to care about it. Not only did they NOT combat those that destroyed bnet in d2, they're actively supporting them to get a slice of their money. And they've removed the alternatives of playing offline, in LANs or playing different mods. So they basically reduced the game to the one part I couldn't stand. Though I have a strange desire to play d2 once more... Oh btw, who else is looking forward to Torchlight 2?
m00
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
who destroyed bnet in d2? are you referring to people who duped items? or farmers who sold for profit? the real money AH is a dumb idea, but if you dont like it, its easy enough to just never buy or sell on it. The only reason I kinda hate it is because it gives a bigger incentives to hack accounts, which can be a pain in the ass for the unprepared.
Has never colored a dinosaur.
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Yeah I played a lot of (single player, offline) d2 and did the guides, calculators etc etc like Tub, but I'm also not very interested in d3. A big part of that is the fact that it's all server side now, which totally sucks for us SP enthusiasts. That said, I did cave and bought it the night before it launched, I've played a couple hours and it seems like it might be an alright game. There's no chance I'll play it as much as d2 though.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
I really liked d2, but I feel like d3 is just a better made game. the main thing that bothered me about d2 was that every serious player really needed a sorc with good mf. I never liked playing sorc, but there was no other practical way to find gear, so you were stuck with it. D3 evens the playing field so any class has to give up stat gain to get good mf. I really would have liked to see MF removed as a stat, but if they had to keep it, this is probably the best way to have done it. I really feel like they did a good job dealing with damage and life leech as well. You could get enough life leech in d2 that you would only really die to insta kill, so the only way the game had challenge was if there were mobs that could kill you instantly. D3 is far better about giving a challenge without sudden death.
Has never colored a dinosaur.
Joined: 2/15/2009
Posts: 329
Diablo 2 was unbalanced and did not have a story. You had your buddy rush your new character to hell cows as soon as you were level 20. Level 91-99 took the same amount of experience as 1-90. 3/4 of most classes skill trees were never used. Life/mana leech was hacked. 95% of the game was hell cows and meph runs with your mf sorc. The main thing the game had was item gathering. Did this make the game fun? It did. I can't seem to put a finger on why.
Working on: Legend of Legaia, Vagrant Story
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Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
I would just like to point out that, in d2, Barbs make much better magic finders than Sorcs for pretty much all (worthwhile) targets, if we're talking about average drop/minute as a measuring stick. I definitely wasn't the first/only one to figure this out, but I do have some of the most efficient legit* MF characters ever in d2. * This is a pretty easy claim though since Single Player crushes bnet for efficiency because of static maps and no realm down. Also, legit by my forum community's standards, which might not mean legit to everyone I suppose.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Joined: 2/15/2009
Posts: 329
I guess I only ever played on battle.net so the always connected thing doesn't bother me. sorcerer was always chosen to teleport through walls to the boss in a few seconds. I never heard of barbarian mephisto runs. Years of playing wow off and on makes me think no monthly fee is actually a good deal... I hate the feeling of being rushed to play a game to get my moneys worth. I haven't bought a game since 2010. Maybe it's time...
Working on: Legend of Legaia, Vagrant Story
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Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away
Barb could use Find Item on all non-quest bosses' corpses, so that effectively increased his MF for council members and Hell cows by a very significant amount.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris
I am hipster. I am playing Torchlight 2. 1/3 the cost of Diablo 3 and I got Torchlight 1 free.
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Joined: 5/11/2011
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started playing yesterday art direction is great, but technical graphics quality is disappointing gameplay looks interesting enough so far
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
A Barb wouldn't do great with Cow runs moozooh, horking 400 bodies every run would eat up a lot of time, plus killing them would be super slow compared to a javazon anyway. Kind of a moo(t) point though since cows isn't really a real target. Barbs crush everything in the Pit, Pindle and Travincal though, and can probably be a bit better than blizzsorcs in AT too, though I've really only seen one Barb try seriously. I kinda lost interest in the game as I was planning on trying.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
exileut wrote:
Diablo 2 was unbalanced and did not have a story.
Now that's just ridiculous. D2 didn't have a story? Then what the hell were all those cinematics about? EDIT: Oh, and I guess I should say something about D3 so I won't be completely off topic. I played the beta a bit, still waiting on my copy of the game. Like others, I played a LOT of D2 but haven't really been that excited about D3. It's just ridiculous how much they've dumbed down the leveling system and the game in general. I mean come on, crucial information like the amount of damage a skill does hidden in "advanced" tooltips? I'm also not a huge fan of how levels 1-59 are just an introduction to the game and then the actual game is just grinding for items at level 60. I need at least some kind of sense of constantly progressing to stay interested in a game for longer periods of time. I guess trying to complete the game on Inferno is one possible goal, but I'd guess doing that won't really take that long in the end.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
The more I play it, the more it just feels like d2 without all of the parts I found obnoxious. Most importantly, the gameplay itself is far less monotonous, given that you have 6 skills you actually use instead of 1 or two. The skill choices you make feel like they matter more as well. D2 got trapped in the mindset where you could put points in whatever you wanted, but some skills sucked so hard you were an idiot if you didn't spec a certain way. In D3, the choices you make matter, and you give up good skills to have other good skills. I just feels like it was better thought out.
Has never colored a dinosaur.
Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
Twelvepack wrote:
Most importantly, the gameplay itself is far less monotonous, given that you have 6 skills you actually use instead of 1 or two.
You could map more skills to F1-F8, and once you found your way into the settings and "fixed" the default keyboard mapping, you could easily switch skills without twisting your fingers. I've played builds with a dozen mapped and used skills. Necromancers for example really benefit from having just the right curse for every situation on a hotkey. Other characters used less, but I usually ended up with 5-12 skills on hotkeys. I actually wanted a 13th skill for my necro, but there were only 12 hotkeys.. My setup was usually two major attacks on the mouse wheel (up/down), TPs on MB3, a "panic skill" (slow missiles, mind blast, Leap attack, teleport, ...) on MB4 and my inventory on MB5. Support-skills, situational skills or pre-battle-buffs on my keyboard, on QWERT..SDFG. Minor changes in that setup as the build required. Compared to that, I found D3 to feel extremely limited. I only played the demo, but my sorc wizard had both an AoE-spell for creeps and a single-target debuff. And I had no way to switch between them during combat. That totally sucked, I'd either get swarmed by creeps, because I couldn't kill them fast enough, or I was obliterated by bosses because I couldn't keep them away from my glass cannon. The solution of course was to retreat through half the map and plink at 'em until they died of boredom. Surely a modern gameplay element fitting for a game from 2012, right? Because "skill switching" is such a complicated thing that the player has to be forbidden from ever using it. What's the point of having situational skills if you can only pick one of them, instead of the right one in each situation? So you were one of those that only used 1-2 skills per character, and you like the new system. Apparently Blizzard succeeded in what they wanted to do: make it easier to play for the casual gamer. But for me, it just felt like a giant step backwards. Granted, I only played the demo, and you cannot judge a diablo-game from the first few levels. Yet, I'm not going to buy it on blind faith.
m00
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Tub wrote:
I actually wanted a 13th skill for my necro, but there were only 12 hotkeys..
What? 16 hotkeys are supported, bro
Joined: 2/15/2009
Posts: 329
I'm having a lot of fun on my monk. I actually like being limited to 6 skills simultaneously. Each skill has a purpose and is fun to use for the most part. (They've been trying to do this with wow for 8 years) I like being able to head to town to salvage and teleport right back to your partners as he continues to fight. I like each person receiving their own loot drops. I like the hugely expanded lore and voiceovers. The crafting system is pointless. I've never made a crafted item better than a dropped item. The auction house ruins item gathering by making it too easy. Plus it's not even accessed during gameplay. The graphics are colorful but low polygon. Like most blizzard games this allows it to run on 7 year old systems and have 100 enemies on screen at once without slowdown. But we always wish for prettier games...The best the game will ever look I'm level 28 in Act3 normal. There are 4 difficulties. 60 is the maximum level. I still have a ways to go before I beat normal. I will update when I do.
Working on: Legend of Legaia, Vagrant Story
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Joined: 8/4/2005
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Low-poly look doesn't bother me at all as long as the game is well-designed, and this one is. That's the right priority, imo. The "I am an enchantress" dialogue instantly reminded me of this, btw. :D
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
darkszero
He/Him
Joined: 7/12/2009
Posts: 181
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Kyrsimys wrote:
I'm also not a huge fan of how levels 1-59 are just an introduction to the game and then the actual game is just grinding for items at level 60. I need at least some kind of sense of constantly progressing to stay interested in a game for longer periods of time.
You gotta love it when you get your ass kicked in the "introduction" then. The game flow is amazing. Your level goes up accordingly as you progress through the game, and each level brings something new to the table, either skills (up to lv30) or runes. If you think runes are boring and worthless, you'll be surprised how often a rune takes a boring skill and changes something about it and makes it your new-favorite. I like the crafting system. While it's mostly gamble with another name, you've got a bit more of control on the outcome (the only random part is the afixes. Item type, quality, armor are fixed) and it does frequently throw some good items out. Heck, I even found an upgrade for my ring in a merchant...
Joined: 2/15/2009
Posts: 329
I'm in nightmare now. The ending was... mediocre. The game really does feel rushed once you get to act 4. I'm focusing on single player now and absorbing the story.
Working on: Legend of Legaia, Vagrant Story
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Posts: 407
So: 1) Cap the XP required to level up once the player reaches what the developers would consider to be "max level" yet allow the players to continue to level up. Example: Every level after level 60 will always require 150,000XP. 2) Allow stat buffing at level up either: as the player begins to level up from level 1 or after the player has reached level 60 (So you get stat buffs for Level 61+) 3) Cap how many stat points can be placed in a stat via the "level up" process. (Each stat can be buffed to a total 80 points of 100) 4) The remaining 20 points for stats is earned through loot/enchantments. 5) Profit? I mean this would retain loot as a primary focus while giving much more freedom/diversity over how your character plays. Also since there is no level limit stats ultimately become useless as everyone will eventually have all stats at 80 (Minus any buffs/debuffs from gear). You could even add a character that charges you in-game currency to reset your stats and allow you to reassign them, if you do end up making poor choices. Anyways, with the game, I find lack of stat buffing at level up to be a real downer also the booklet with the game has a terribly weak summary of the story so far. Diablo 1's manual has a so much better retelling of the story that it just isn't funny. However the game IS reasonable, I am getting some fun out of it but I just feel focusing on loot entirely is just stupid.
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Blizzard did a lot right with Diablo 3, in terms of duplicating Diablo 2's gameplay and removing many of the annoying elements. But there are also sooo many completely boneheaded design decisions that it really makes you wonder how people get paid to make one terrible choice after another, and how nobody else objected at any point during design and development. The skill system is a complete change from D2, and though it's different, it's fine. The main annoyance with the skill system in D2 was that you were heavily penalized for experimenting, which is obviously terrible. Simply giving players unlimited respecs would have completely solved that problem. D3's limited skill selection is certainly more restrictive than D2, and lowers the skill cap considerably, but I don't object to the designers drifting away from the standard skill tree, which can be argued has structural issues unrelated to whether or not you can respec. Itemization is completely imbalanced in D3. D3 was always going to be a game about killing lots of stuff over and over again and hoping to get good drops. If you object to that particular type of gameplay (and I'm fine if you do), you're just playing the wrong game. If you don't like farming items, don't play Diablo. But the frequency and level range at which items drop in D3 is absolutely terrible. The vast majority of stuff that you drop in D3 is going to be 8-12 levels below you, and it can't possibly be relevant to you other than putting it up on the auction house for cheap. This has the effect of flooding the auction house with cheap and easy items, essentially allowing anyone to "twink" themselves for very little cost or effort, simply by visiting the auction house. I'm not opposed to the idea of the auction house per se, but when the 100% best way to progress through the game -- from 1-60, through all difficulty levels -- is to use your abundant excess gold to buy cheap stuff other players flood the AH with, then the designers have failed. Of course, part of the reason the AH is "too good" is because blues (magic items, in D2 lingo) are WAY too good, and legendaries (uniques) SUCK. It's as if the best legendary items you can get in D3 are equivalent to exceptional uniques from D2, while blues can (and do) drop at elite. The disparity is THAT big. But blues are very common drops, while legendaries are exceedingly rare. So the exceedingly rare items just SUCK. They are TERRIBLE. But the really common items are AWESOME. They are easy to get and anyone can get them. The auction house is full of them. Everything is ass backwards, and dropping legendaries has none of the excitement that dropping uniques had in D2. In fact, you would prefer to never ever drop a legendary item. Something else that is completely and utterly backwards is relative monster difficulty in Inferno. Inferno mobs are much, much, MUCH harder than the ACTUAL GAME BOSSES. For example, after you beat Diablo in Hell, if you could somehow magically teleport to Diablo in Inferno, you would be able to beat him. This is not hyperbole, and it's true for every single boss in the game, except The Butcher, who is the only boss with an enrage timer (so his fight is a DPS check, which you need a certain fairly low level of gear to pass.) The Inferno bosses have no new mechanics, and their existing mechanics are all very robotic, easy to learn, and require nothing resembling strategy or teamwork to master. The only way they differ from their Hell counterparts is they have more HP and more damage. That's the way D2 did it, and I guess it would be OK if D3 did it the exact same way (but you hope the designers would have found a way to improve upon it ...), but D3 actually does it far worse. In D2 bosses were at least a gear check. In D3 they are a nothing check. Are you in Hell? Congratulations, you can beat all the Inferno bosses. You can't GET to them, but, hey, you could walk all over them if you could. A1 Inferno actually is fine. The mob difficulty is ramped way up, elites spawn with some crazy combos of affixes, and it's legitimately difficult to work your way through it the first time. Then you get to The Butcher fight, and he enrages after 3 minutes and spanks you. You eventually realize you need to just spec max DPS, maybe gear up a bit, and he goes down smooth. Compare that to Act 2. When you set foot in Act 2 for the first time, you are going to get SMASHED. The mobs are impossibly difficult. You need much better gear to be able to get past them. That's reasonable, I have no problem with a difficult game, nor am I morally opposed to the idea of gear checks as a means of impeding progress (though it's admittedly lazy design if that's all your game's got.) But then you get to Magda, and ... you trash her. If you can get to Magda legitimately, you will almost certainly utterly destroy her the first time you try. It will not be a challenge. Magda (and every Inferno boss except The Butcher) is simply easier (and MUCH easier) than the mobs you have to wade through to get to her. The bosses are an absolute joke. Never mind that Blizzard really, REALLY made it sound like Inferno was going to be difficult and awesome and hardcore, and we were all in store for some amazing new gameplay mechanics, and the game doesn't really start till Inferno, etc., etc. They talked it up BIGTIME in interviews and previews and the like. (They said things like "people are going to wipe for weeks and weeks on the first boss" and "it will be months before Inferno is beaten.") Never mind that. It's terrible simply from an aesthetic perspective that the actual bosses of the game, purportedly the strongest demons in the world, would all get literally destroyed by trash mobs. Some people (including blue posters) have been trying to defend this terrible design by saying stuff like, "Well we've/they've been saying the whole time we/they didn't want D3 to be like D2 where you just run bosses over and over again for gear. Of course the Inferno bosses are going to be easy, they drop trash." That reasoning is soooooooo dumb. First of all, I really fail to see how endlessly farming elites is any different from endlessly farming bosses. At least killing a boss feels epic in some sense. Farming elites is way more frustrating because you never know when some mob is going to spawn with some impossibly retarded combination of affixes. But let's ignore that. Let's say farming bosses is categorically off the table. Ok, what does boss difficulty have to do with what they drop? Bosses could drop jack shit nothing at all and still be the hardest fights in the game. They should be some of the hardest fights in the game. Even if they dropped nothing, players would still want to beat them because that's how you advance in the game. Also, it's so trivial to make boss drops awesome without making them farmable. Make them drop some one time use item (e.g. Alkor's potion in D2), or an item you can only have one of (e.g. Annihilus in D2), or only make them drop something the first time you kill them, etc. If Blizzard was so irrationally opposed to the concept of boss farming, there was still absolutely no reason to make the Inferno bosses absurdly easy. Or they could have done something really awesome like make bosses get harder every time you kill them, or after you kill a boss for the quest, start making them spawn with bonus affixes, or make it so boss loot tables suck at first but scale up faster with Nephalim Valor, so if you wanted to farm them, you'd definitely want to get 5 charges of NV first (which turns a "boss farm" into "just playing the game for a while, and killing a boss at the end"), etc. etc. There were a MILLION awesome ideas Blizzard could have done here, and they somehow designed, tested, and sold the hell out of an obviously terrible and disappointing one. Then there's the attitude of all the publicly facing Blizzard employees. As I mentioned before, they talked up Inferno like nobody's business. It was guaranteed to be super hard and it would be months before anyone could beat it. Turns out they were completely wrong because the top players just corpse hopped through all of Inferno, effectively skipping past all of the impossibly difficult mobs, and fought the ridiculously simple and underpowered bosses with trash gear. Athene hit 60 24 hours after launch. Method beat Inferno Diablo in something like 80. Blizzard screwed the pooch. And instead of admitting they oversold the game and completely underestimated the ingenuity and dedication of their playerbase, and promising to make it right in the expansion, blue posts from the likes of Bashiok and others have been condescending and insulting, the equivalent of "Well that's how no life faggots play the game, but if you play it the right way it's hard, this is the best game ever and all of you are stupid." Umm, Inferno mode was explicitly FOR hardcore gamers. You can't talk up Inferno mode for months saying how it's going to be the pinnacle of gaming challenges and then whine "that's not how you are supposed to play the game" when you get handed your ass three days after launch. I mean, you CAN, but then you'd be the idiots at Blizzard. And don't even get me started on the auction house. (The interface, not the concept.) It's a fucking unmitigated disaster. I could go on for hours, here, but I'm getting angry just thinking about all the ways I'm pissed off at how bad D3 is.