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ALAKTORN
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Player (99)
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
Nahoc wrote:
Also, you still haven't proved what those "emulation inaccuracies" are.
the boosts of the zippers, 2 top players agree on it, you really can’t argue on that
Experienced player (601)
Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706
ALAKTORN wrote:
2 top players agree on it, you really can’t argue on that
First, thank you for bringing this possible emulation issue to our attention. With regard to whether, and to what extent, there is an issue (with all due respect) we cannot exactly take two top speedrunners' words on the issue. In the spirit of this site, we need to specifically test the circumstances in question and closely compare them. It is possible the issue is more to do with unrestricted control stick movement, for example. Or, maybe the issue is the emulation of the speedometer or something that does not actually affect gameplay. The point is, we don't take peoples' "word for it" on things like this. After all, this is testable.
Current Project: - Mario Kart 64
Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215
It's understood that there might be an issue and anyone with the hardware should be able to make some simple video recordings to confirm but...
ALAKTORN wrote:
a better TAS would still be minutes and minutes slower than the inaccurate emulation TAS, how do you go about doing obsoletion like that?
By doing the following: 1) improve emulation 2) optimize the route or gameplay of existing TAS but get slower overall time because the boosts are now slower or whatever 3) submit run and explain why it's longer but more accurate Done, obsoleted. Submission acceptance is done by human beings who can weigh information appropriately, NOT a machine that only sees frame count. In the mean time, there's no reason to deprive viewers and the site with fresh content, since "better n64 emulation for TASing" has been a unicorn for a few years now.
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Ya pretty much what bkDJ said. I'd trust that these 2 guys are right 99%, but even if it's 100% that's not the point. We need to know more precisely what is going wrong, not only for accurate definitive proof to prevent the site from being murky with emulation accuracy and policy, but also to help get a fix for the inaccuracy.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Player (119)
Joined: 1/30/2007
Posts: 82
I doubt that any emulation errors of the sort discussed exist in this game given that I haven't noticed any errors in the emulation to date. If there were any problems, I would expect the staff ghosts to desync (unless they're not stored as button presses which is unusual for racing games). The speed gain of the hovercraft through snaking is related to how much the hovercraft is turning and hence how far the control stick can be turned. More control stick movement also gives better handling among other things in all the vehicles. As for the boosts, their duration is effectively random and small changes in driving can result in a much longer or shorter boost by mechanisms I don't understand. Comparing them between console and emulator is therefore difficult. More testing is needed but I remain skeptical. If a new run were done, I'd be in favor of using TT and just playing through to the first credits in order to skip the 16 redundant races. The four battle/challenge stages would also be skipped in this case.
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Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1095
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
xenos wrote:
If a new run were done, I'd be in favor of using TT and just playing through to the first credits in order to skip the 16 redundant races. The four battle/challenge stages would also be skipped in this case.
I'd rather like to see a full game run with TT, preferably Adventure 2. The "bad ending" run could be done with Banjo from a clean safe.
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
ALAKTORN
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Player (99)
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
Weatherton wrote:
First, thank you for bringing this possible emulation issue to our attention.
that was my main point, I don’t care enough nor am able to make precise tests myself, and I trust Stacy’s and 0xwas’s word; so if you don’t believe them feel free to make precise tests and get to the bottom of the issue, but don’t just ignore it
Joined: 2/28/2012
Posts: 159
Location: Philadelphia
So make a save file with ghosts that use zippers and send it to Aleckermit who can presumably load that save onto his N64 flashcart and try it on console. I doubt they'll desync.
ALAKTORN
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Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
Enterim wrote:
So make a save file with ghosts that use zippers and send it to Aleckermit who can presumably load that save onto his N64 flashcart and try it on console. I doubt they'll desync.
like xenos said, even if they synch it could mean that they aren’t saved as input presses does this game ever come up with a “impossible to save ghost data” while TTing? in MK64 you can just turbofire all inputs and after a minute or so you’ll get the message, because there were too many inputs and the game couldn’t save them, the same test could be made for DKR I think… and if you never get the message, then they aren’t based on input?
Experienced player (873)
Joined: 4/11/2008
Posts: 157
Location: Anime land
In-game boost acceleration is very affected by lag in this game. If more lags are made, acceleration will make lower. This happened in xenos wizpig TAS with TT. or you can confirm this at start boost. you will get nearly 90km/h in emulator but almost impossible in console. I think mupen can't emulate lag correctly and no inaccuracy other than lag.
ALAKTORN
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Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
if it’s due to lag then there’s no way it’ll ever be fixed :(
Joined: 4/7/2008
Posts: 117
Do you mean in principle or practically? There's no reason in principle why lag cannot be emulated properly, it's done through cycle-accurate simulation.
ALAKTORN
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Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
I meant practically, seeing as even the most accurate emulators seem to have trouble emulating lag, I thought it was one of the hardest things to emulate right not that I know much about it
Player (119)
Joined: 1/30/2007
Posts: 82
was0x wrote:
In-game boost acceleration is very affected by lag in this game. If more lags are made, acceleration will make lower. This happened in xenos wizpig TAS with TT. or you can confirm this at start boost. you will get nearly 90km/h in emulator but almost impossible in console. I think mupen can't emulate lag correctly and no inaccuracy other than lag.
If you watch that wizpig video frame by frame you'll see I only boosted to 60km/h. TT's normal sliding speed is >90km/h which accounts for your observation. The start boost is affected by which version of the game you use (50Hz vs. 60Hz), possibly by whether the game is started from a clean savefile, and a few other random factors. Sometimes it's possible to get to 90km/h on an emulator, other times it isn't.
Expert player (2584)
Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Hey, I still have a Game Pack of this game here and its checksum is "4F9DAC86,113110640" with the Magic Code "DODGYROMMER", coincidentally the same ROM used in the published run. So I did some tests using Banjo on Ancient Lake, Tracks Mode, on Car, with TT On: Top Speed Starting Blue Turbo While Sliding and Releasing A; Console = 70 Emulator = 100 Top Speed Without Turbo, Zero Bananas, not Sliding and Holding A; Console = 60 Emulator = 60 Top Speed Sliding With 10 Bananas and Tapping A; Console = 90 Emulator = 90 Top Speed Zippers Green Turbo Releasing A; Console = 145 Emulator = 145 (estimated values as the speedometer is analog) About the staff's ghost mentioned by xenos or the player's ghost mentioned by ALAKTORN, it seems to be saved as "player's position" and not "player's input". Save a ghost wobbling your character and then follow it from behind to see what I mean; it won't wobble any more but instead will follow a smooth line along the track. Also, with an empty Controller Pack you can save a ghost up to 3 minutes long, no matter how many inputs there are, after that a message "Can't Save Ghost" is displayed over TT's face, so the player's position theory seems accurate. So, the ghost will probably sync if created on emulator and played back on console, but the TAS won't sync given the turbo speed differences between emu and a real N64. I just found a small trick that can save more time than those turbo inaccuracies, but it require frame precision so I doubt you'll see it done on console anyway :) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/622124192/DKRtas20.m64
I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.
ALAKTORN
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Player (99)
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
nice tests Dooty :) can someone make an encode of that new trick?
Expert player (2584)
Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Oh, I forgot to mention; the file used to show the trick is xeno's most recent TAS, it's basically the coin collection trick from DKC2. As soon as the coin (I mean, balloon) is collected press Start and choose "Return to Lobby", it skips the winning fanfare and Taj's cutscene. Unfortunately, it doesn't work on Boss Races, you won't receive the Piece of the Amulet if you do this trick. edit: the Pause Trick can also be used to skip the track's intro; pause as soon as you can and choose "Restart Race". edit2: well, well... I'm giving up on this one, these 3D games are out of my league.
I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.
Joined: 1/5/2011
Posts: 5
Well, I don't know if anyone has interest in making a new run for this game, but it seems this topic has been brought back from the dead for one reason or another. So I will go ahead and share this peculiar glitch my brother has discovered some time ago: http://www.mediafire.com/?3c3qrx13byoeucj I hope this mupen video example will work for you guys. In case it somehow doesn't, I will attempt to give a step-by-step on how this glitch works just below. Step 1: Once in the Space World drive near the hall to the Trophy Race Challenge located on the east side. Step 2: Honk your horn to call T.T. near the Trophy Race hall. Step 3: Keep calling him until you've got him, with you facing toward the main lobby, glitched into the west-outward corner of the hall. Step 4: T.T. should be hovering all the way to the top of the wall boundaries. Once you end speaking with him, drive under where he's destined to land. You will then be launched very high into the air, with the direction depending on where you got slammed by T.T. The goal here is to launch yourself behind the T.T. amulet door and straight to Wizpig 2 with no need to do any of the Space World races. Also another discovery I've made is that you can get under the beach with the lighthouse in the main hub by doing a downward airplane loop. This allows you to go to Wizpig 1 immediately. Though that isn't of much use because you cannot go to the Space World without doing the Trophy Races first. You can also a similar trick at tracks such as Hot Top Volcano.
ALAKTORN
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Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
those things sound crazy, never heard them before O_o
Joined: 1/5/2011
Posts: 5
Yep, they basically are. How my brother discovered it was by attempting to bring T.T. into areas he doesn't normally walk just for fun. But then we noticed how he has like, zero collision detection against walls. And he continued experimenting with this until we've come to this conclusion. You can also get behind the boss door in Dino Domain with this glitch. But there is like no point to that either because of the silver coin challenges. Oh and in the second glitch, I believe I meant to say to Barrel Roll continuously at a precise downward angle toward the beach. I haven't done this one in a while, so I'm not sure if what I'm saying is entirely accurate for this one. Maybe I'll make a recording of this one, as well.
Joined: 9/18/2012
Posts: 48
If there is another tas of this, I was thinking that in Boulder Canyon, you could use the logs to push you faster. IDK how much time it would save, but it's something to consider.
Post subject: Re: T.T. Glitch
Expert player (2584)
Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
TheWario wrote:
Well, I don't know if anyone has interest in making a new run for this game, but it seems this topic has been brought back from the dead for one reason or another. So I will go ahead and share this peculiar glitch my brother has discovered some time ago: http://www.mediafire.com/?3c3qrx13byoeucj
Just managed to watch the glitch (impressive by the way), I wonder if this glitch can make a run of this game "legal" again; the only known differences between console and emulator is the turbo at the starting line and the hovercraft's speed, so if someone could skip the hovercraft's stages and forgoes the use of the turbo at the starting line, it won't have emulation inaccuracies anymore. (or so I think)
I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.
Joined: 11/9/2012
Posts: 40
Hi there, I have recently found/researched the T.T. Stomp and OoB described earlier in this thread. Along with that come some other tricks i've discovered messing around with the game. EDIT: I've changed up the post to add more videos/organize them and add other tricks that may be useful in a TAS situation Overworld Wizpig 1 Early (3 worlds as well) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnPKokH8Vfs Sherbet Island Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68fs3A954k4 Dino Domain Ancient Lake Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VprQ6USmzk Fossil Canyon Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD8achUdVCE Jungle Falls Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OSBUVXsUOU Hot Top Volcano Early https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=258XFTzsL58 Hot Top Volcano OoB http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi2UDlcNnNE Dino Domain Boss Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOiCgXcK_YE Snowflake Mountain Everfrost Peak Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlV20Tjxgo4 Walrus Cove Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYExRE47rXI Snowball Valley Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smUVsHTyECQ Frosty Village Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0JiaCID2do Icicle Pyramid Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF4W6EH_unM Walrus Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkA88OPzEfs Walrus OoB http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx0BFK_hyf0 Sherbet Island Treasure Coves OoB http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOPuGxeOrEs Dragon Forest Windmill Plains Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y04R5xNxZBo Greenwood Village Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKuvjWYwGic Haunted Woods Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmbkXB6hA1Q Consistent Haunted Woods http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC0DWmMAgoI More Consistent Haunted Woods http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V6ZXs3HjDo Future Fun Land Spacedust Alley Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUgjR087Ht0 Darkmoon Caverns Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybHlq0c6ZoI Spaceport Alpha Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILCLjgDgap0 Star City Early http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlQ7zs9GGv0 Star City OoB http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqA7uvJsTHU Amulet Skip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2VyUGDs4GM Amulet Skip Consistent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyCGMWKKjkY Console Friendly Amulet Skip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OF72f3m09U Wizpig 2 OoB http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WG__tK-ju0 Misc. Tricks Textbox Storage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UZS3yjm-6Q Textbox Swapping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jhn4MuNX8Q Textbox Swapping Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHC2VOkgLs0 Climbing Slopes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSQCTw8F8MM Cutscene Skips http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhFe_MapgDY What do these tricks mean and how are they useful to Diddy Kong Racing? Well, actually... not a lot are useful. However, there are a few key points i'd like to point out. Low% is now possible in DKR. Various tricks found in those videos allow for a balloon count of 32. The first trick contributing to low% is the Wizpig 1 Early video, this isn't really used to access Wizpig, but Dino Domain instead. Once inside Dino Domain you use a T.T. stomp to skip a balloon door to start your adventure. Continuing until you reach a stopping point in Dragon Forest (Skipping all the overworld balloons, Taj challenges, keys, and minigames) is the T.T. stomp to Haunted Woods early (Balloon count for that door is 37). For that one you need to do the silver coin boulder canyon before you can even attempt the stomp. Lastly you continue like normal until you reach Future Fun Land where you finish with T.T. Stomp to skip the amulet door that requires all 47 balloons and the T.T. Amulet (Minigames + Keys) Any% would use the T.T. stomp from above at Future Fun Land to only skip the amulet. Doing other skips would possibly be slower(?) Why not skip straight to Future Fun Land? The loading zone for the lighthouse does not exist until 2 checks are made, wizpig 1 and all 4 trophies. Trophies can not be done until 2nd boss of their respective world. 2nd boss can't be done until all their respective silver coin challenges. Silver coin challenges can't be done until their regular challenges AND 1st boss. These tricks are pretty much all that are found in DKR and it is VERY VERY unlikely that there will be more.
Joined: 11/9/2012
Posts: 40
I have no idea what this is or why it happens with textboxes but here is a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jhn4MuNX8Q What happens depends on the textbox that you have up on the screen Races Ancient Lake - I T Y text Jungle Falls - I T Y text Fossil Canyon - I T Y text Hot Top Volcano - I T Y text Everfrost Peak - Crash Walrus Cove - Crash Snowball Valley - Crash Frosty Village - Crash Windmill Plains- Crash Greenwood Village - I T Y text I did get the Windmill Plains stomp on console to test out the crash, it behaves the exact same way as on emulator. The screen turns black and there is nothing that appears and you are unable to exit the game without hitting the restart or powering off. I'll keep this post edited with what I test for now
MarbleousDave
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Posts: 1555
I would like to see a 4 player playaround using the wrong warp glitch and having the courses mirrored. That would be more entertaining.
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