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GUIDE PRINCIPLES

  • kill less enemy as possible(sometimes it forced me to do)
  • use additional weapon as primary.
  • no death
  • pick power ups
  • fastest as possible.

COMMENTS

this type of run is rarely seen. So i think this first run to be seen.
The idea came up from Feos that ng3 has most amount of enemy than ng1 or ng2. That it will be entertaining to see.
NOTE:
  • don't use (U) rom or it'll desync.
  • (j) rom is different .
Less enemy, damage per hit, item spawnage, enemy randomness.
  • damage is taken however to save time(Feos told me to do that anyway).

ENJOY


Noxxa: Setting game name to the English name.

Noxxa: Judging.
Noxxa: Rejecting due to poor viewer feedback. Despite the run (originally) being labeled "pacifist", the run appears to kill much more enemies than is needed, going against its own goals. The viewers did not enjoy that dozens of enemies are killed with subweapons in some stages despite the "pacifist" label.


TASVideoAgent
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Making fast encode.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
Making fast encode.
is this run good?
Jungon wrote:
if I was to have a Tool-Assisted real life ... I'd.. I could abuse death, just to see if it saves time ..
Cooljay
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This run is better than the other one you submitted overall. More entertaining to watch, and fast too. Yes vote.
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Marx wrote:
feos wrote:
Making fast encode.
is this run good?
Yes for me. Don't know how would the others react.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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So happy
Jungon wrote:
if I was to have a Tool-Assisted real life ... I'd.. I could abuse death, just to see if it saves time ..
Joined: 4/24/2012
Posts: 129
Location: Atlanta, GA
The decision to use the sub-weapon to bypass spikes in 4-2 is fine in and of itself, but it bothers me that you used it to kill enemies as well. Also, health management seems miniscule, since most enemies are avoidable and/or don't deal much damage in the first place. If at all possible, I would've much rather seen this happen with a "no damage" tag, as well. It appears to be well-done, but I have too many reservations to say yes, and I don't even think it's a very good game for a pacifist TAS. Voting meh.
Synahel
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Nice run ! Quite entertaining.
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Sorry, no vote. Because you hit more enemies than this run in stage4. http://bbs.tasvg.com/thread-975-1-2.html This tas was made by Xipo in 2008. He take no damage, no death, no use 忍, no big sword, kill least enemy. the replayfile(fcm): http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/272784195/xipo-Ninja%20Gaiden%20III%20%28J%29.fcm
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TheReflexWonder wrote:
The decision to use the sub-weapon to bypass spikes in 4-2 is fine in and of itself, but it bothers me that you used it to kill enemies as well. Also, health management seems miniscule, since most enemies are avoidable and/or don't deal much damage in the first place. If at all possible, I would've much rather seen this happen with a "no damage" tag, as well. It appears to be well-done, but I have too many reservations to say yes, and I don't even think it's a very good game for a pacifist TAS. Voting meh.
No damage is boring. http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6848
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/5/2011
Posts: 61
I haven't played this game (only the 1st two), and I assume that all enemy hits do not knock you back unlike in the prior games. I compared this run to the currently published one, but mostly to Xipo's (linked above). You end Stage 1 with 4 HP. That's 3 hits you could have used to save time, such as in the 2nd room, where you jump in between enemies to avoid damage and stop forward momentum, as well as kill an enemy in that room (assume this is unavoidable as Xipo did it as well). Unless there's a reason for it. I don't really like the killing with your sub-weapon for a pacifist run. - Stage 2-2B, you kill an enemy with your sub-weapon. - Stage 3-1A, you attack an armored enemy, although doesn't kill. Does that count against pacifism? - Stage 3-2D, your horizontal speed stops right before the boss, even though you have plenty of life to take the hit. Xipo keeps on moving forward. Better luck manipulation? - Stage 4-2 had a lot of kills, and if you go for pacifist, you should avoid those kills at all cost. Also noticed you grabbed the wall before entering the boss room. Is that avoidable, like in Xipo's (altho his spikes were moving down)? - Stage 5-2, all of this is much easier to compare with Xipo as you both must avoid damage. In 5-2A, you stop to walk under the jumping ball enemy, while Xipo moves forward. Not quite sure if frames are saved, as I'm just comparing movies. - Stage 5-2B, you kill 2 eye enemies, whereas Xipo only kills 1. - Towards the top of 5-2B, Xipo spawns only 1 spider, allowing him to not spawn the last enemy and run by faster. Because you spawn a 2nd spider, you need to jump earlier, causing you to lose lots of frames jumping in between gunfire. - Stage 5-2C seems to be done much quicker (or at least more fluid) for Xipo than you. Is the ninja scroll necessary? - Stage 5-2E, why do you jump over the 3rd last enemy? You have the HP to take a hit - Stage 6-2B, you use your sub-weapon to kill 3 enemies and get through the last part instead of waiting. You also kill 2 enemies, where Xipo demonstrated that it can be done without killing. - Stage 7-1A is faster for Xipo by at least 1 real-time second (unless the movie timers are off) - Stage 7-2C is doable without sub-weapon, as demonstrated by Xipo spawning the enemies earlier and manipulating them - Stage 7-2D, killed an enemy for the potion - Stage 7-3A, looks like you can minimize kills by jumping before moving to 7-3B, but you fall and kill 2 extra enemies, I think Overall, I like a no damage run (such as Xipo's). There are only a few parts where you really notice the excessive waiting to manipulate enemies. But no damage also creates really cool scenarios, such as 7-3C and several others I already forgot. This submitted run seems to have several arbitrary uses/bending of rules, although my guess is that the Xipo run wasn't known to the author. There are definitely some parts which are improvable. But I'm voting no not only because of the improvements but also because of the bending of rules when it saves time. Otherwise, you might as well just do a regular run. Xipo's run would get a yes from me (if submitted), since he doesn't bend any rules, so it's much easier to judge. I think if you avoid using the sub-weapon to kill enemies and kill just as many as Xipo, I'd vote yes. I don't mind taking damage to save time in this run.
Joined: 4/6/2012
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First off, I understand how pacifism runs are supposed to work; minimum kills possible (save for bosses, who must always be killed to proceed). I did not include bosses in what I considered "kills" for each stage. I counted minimal or no kills in most stages, and understood the reasons for a few of your kills (particularly your single kill in stage 1 I knew was necessary; I know that if you take damage while climbing a wall, you get knocked off of it). For most stages, this run seems pretty well-done. However, I have problems with this run insofar as I counted 11 kills in stage 4, and FIFTY in stage 7. With kill counts like those, I don't care what reasons you claim to have had (even with stage 7's enemy population problem, I'm certain you could have managed to kill less than 50 enemies); from my point of view, this is entirely unacceptable for a pacifist run. I would MUCH rather see you wait and/or dance around as (little as, of course) necessary than "happen" to use a spike-bypass fire wheel (which I agree is fine in and of itself) to also kill enemies. That would much-better fit the spirit of a pacifist run. As my knowledge of Ninja Gaiden in general is mostly lacking (despite having played this particular game the most), and also since I am sure I did not catch all the kills having watched the run only once, I read the posts made at the time (particularly Kwyjimbo's was useful) to hear of any kills I missed, and to discern some of the reasons why you may have killed what you did - only to discover there is another run that manages to avoid more kills (and as possible takes more damage rather than killing/waiting in several cases) and that I was not the only person who felt a need to cry foul on those stages. Therefore, overall, the only conclusion I can possibly come to is that this run is obviously not fully-optimized toward its overall goal of pacifism. Failing to fully-optimize toward a branch goal (especially when, as in this case, it is quite obvious) is a fatal oversight to make when shooting for a special branch as you are. For this reason, I not only am technically obligated to vote No, but due to the grievous blatancy of your ignorance of your goal in stages 4 and 7, there is no way I can vote either Yes or even Meh on a personal level, either. I would, however, be interested in seeing an improved version of this run. If you re-optimize and re-submit with less kills, I will reconsider.
1/60 of a second is important; every frame matters.
YoungJ1997lol
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sigh, ya finnaly did it. i put anyes vote, but ishould have put meh.
So yea, how's it going? Currently TASing: Nothing
Joined: 9/21/2011
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I very much like the idea of Ninja Gaiden pacifist runs. I even like the ruleset chosen here: don't kill anything unless absolutely necessary, use of subweapons to speed up boss kills is O.K., and taking damage to save time. Unfortunately, as many others have pointed out so far, there were many kills made that were not absolutely necessary. If pacifism is the main goal, it needs to be followed to a T, even if it means sacrificing time. That probably means skipping the firewheel and taking longer on the spike sections, etc. I would definitely vote yes on this run if the excess kills were avoided. It seems technically sound otherwise. As it is, though, I have no choice but to vote no. Incidentally, I'd love to see runs with this exact set of rules for NG1 and NG2. Despite having fewer enemies, I think they could still be more entertaining.
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Joined: 5/27/2012
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Location: Wisconsin
i will say that i was slightly entertained with the game and i know that the series on the nes on a whole is a very hard game but for a pacifist run this was not at all a good run i give it a no vote. i do like that you used the fire shield to get around the spikes but then that same shield would kill at least 4 or 5 enemies that were totally avoidable, also there were times that you would take damage and then not use the invincibility frames to proceded at all instead you would be knocked back. if the game wasnt a pacifist run i would maybe give a meh vote but fwiw i have to stick with my NO vote. the idea was a good one but better management of health and use of the sub weapons would make it so much better.
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I have to agree with others here. There are too many times where enemies are killed that don't need to be. You can't save time by zipping through the spikes if it kills enemies that wouldn't be killed if you did it more slowly. I love pacifist runs, so I really hope you try again. If you do, 2-2B would be perfect to synchronize your moves to the music!
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Joined: 9/13/2010
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mtvf1 wrote:
Sorry, no vote. Because you hit more enemies than this run in stage4. http://bbs.tasvg.com/thread-975-1-2.html This tas was made by Xipo in 2008. He take no damage, no death, no use 忍, no big sword, kill lest enemy. the replayfile(fcm): http://www.tasvg.com/upload/2008-4/4/NG3.7z
Sorry to be a bit on the rude side, but yall remember the line in Batman Forever, "Your entrance was good, his was better." But in this case a lil bit before the second entrance. I had a no vote in mind once I got to stage 3 and then the rest of the run solidified my choice. Posters from above pointed just about everything out. Use this tas as a starting point, being 4ish years old I am sure some improvements can be made. Taking dmg in areas would save a bit of time (taking that you are willing to from this run) and I am sure you can find more. Side note, any chance some one could make an avi or mp4 of Xipo's run? I would like to see the run at 60fps. No big deal if no one is willing.
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Xipo run is probably improvable. On boss. Stage 1 boss. He attack just one before he goes to back.but it can be attack 3 time (like in this movie). And everything is perfect. ----
KwyjiboPrime wrote:
I haven't played this game (only the 1st two), and I assume that all enemy hits do not knock you back like in the prior games. I compared this run to the currently published one, but mostly to Xipo's (linked above). You end Stage 1 with 4 HP. That's 3 hits you could have used to save time, such as in the 2nd room, where you jump in between enemies to avoid damage and stop forward momentum, as well as kill an enemy in that room (assume this is unavoidable as Xipo did it as well). Unless there's a reason for it. I don't really like the killing with your sub-weapon for a pacifist run. - Stage 2-2B, you kill an enemy with your sub-weapon. - Stage 3-1A, you attack an armored enemy, although doesn't kill. Does that count against pacifism? - Stage 3-2D, your horizontal speed stops right before the boss, even though you have plenty of life to take the hit. Xipo keeps on moving forward. Better luck manipulation? - Stage 4-2 had a lot of kills, and if you go for pacifist, you should avoid those kills at all cost. Also noticed you grabbed the wall before entering the boss room. Is that avoidable, like in Xipo's (altho his spikes were moving down)? - Stage 5-2, all of this is much easier to compare with Xipo as you both must avoid damage. In 5-2A, you stop to walk under the jumping ball enemy, while Xipo moves forward. Not quite sure if frames are saved, as I'm just comparing movies. - Stage 5-2B, you kill 2 eye enemies, whereas Xipo only kills 1. - Towards the top of 5-2B, Xipo spawns only 1 spider, allowing him to not spawn the last enemy and run by faster. Because you spawn a 2nd spider, you need to jump earlier, causing you to lose lots of frames jumping in between gunfire. - Stage 5-2C seems to be done much quicker (or at least more fluid) for Xipo than you. Is the ninja scroll necessary? - Stage 5-2E, why do you jump over the 3rd last enemy? You have the HP to take a hit - Stage 6-2B, you use your sub-weapon to kill 3 enemies and get through the last part instead of waiting. You also kill 2 enemies, where Xipo demonstrated that it can be done without killing. - Stage 7-1A is faster for Xipo by at least 1 real-time second (unless the movie timers are off) - Stage 7-2C is doable without sub-weapon, as demonstrated by Xipo spawning the enemies earlier and manipulating them - Stage 7-2D, killed an enemy for the potion - Stage 7-3A, looks like you can minimize kills by jumping before moving to 7-3B, but you fall and kill 2 extra enemies, I think Overall, I like a no damage run. There are only a few parts where you really notice the excessive waiting to manipulate enemies. But no damage also creates really cool scenarios, such as 7-3C and several others I already forgot. This submitted run seems to have several arbitrary uses/bending of rules, although my guess is that the Xipo run wasn't known to the author. There are definitely some parts which are improvable. But I'm voting no not only because of the improvements but also because of the bending of rules when it saves time. Otherwise, you might as well just do a regular run. Xipo's run would get a yes from me (if submitted), since he doesn't bend any rules, so it's much easier to judge. I think if you avoid using the sub-weapon to kill enemies and kill just as many as Xipo, I'd vote yes. I don't mind taking damage to save time in this run.
pacifist:-no kills , no damage, no sub weapon. This is quite semi paficist(feos request). In 3-2d i go slower though. Yes luck manipulation. In boss. Go try yourself walking through the boss(with damahe). ---- 5-2e i don't hp or i'll die.(how much hp i have in boss area? 0) ---- Edit by FractalFusion: Merged three posts.
Jungon wrote:
if I was to have a Tool-Assisted real life ... I'd.. I could abuse death, just to see if it saves time ..
Former player
Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 424
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I voted no. Does not achieve its primary aim, which is to minimize enemy kills. This is especially blatant with the fire wheel. If you kill enemies just to save time, then that's any%, not pacifist. In the pacifist category, reducing the kill count by one is enough to obsolete a run that is 10 minutes shorter, and speed only matters if the kill counts are equal. Other than that, I would have preferred having no damage as a secondary goal, since what makes pacifist fun is the large number of enemies that you have to avoid, and allowing damage means you can skip avoiding some of them. Some opportunities to entertain were missed in the rising lava autoscroller. Moving with the music is always nice. That is not critical, though, and the reason why I voted no was solely due to not achieving the pacifist goal.
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BTW, I didn't mean that using subweapons to kill enemies is allowed, I thought the pacifist catregory is obvious enough. Only for bosses and unavoidable enemies. So killing less enemies would obsolete this submission. And subweapons were suggested to kill the bosses faster, because without them it really would look repetitive.. And I feel odd after suggesting the 3rd game. It has no damage boost when you get damage while jumping. First 2 games boost you on jumps too, it gives tons of problems to a gamer, and seeing how he boosts from enemies that he isn't allowed to kill would be really interesting (because of HP management). Here he just rushes through them and takes damage on jumps to prevent boosting. Hmmmmmm, maybe the second game shall be tried now?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Player (127)
Joined: 3/23/2012
Posts: 296
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Saw that lonewolf submission. It would be cloneless , slow boss fight and uninteresting. 1st one would be good. Down+b is good
Jungon wrote:
if I was to have a Tool-Assisted real life ... I'd.. I could abuse death, just to see if it saves time ..
Joined: 7/10/2007
Posts: 280
Voted no, go full pacifist or don't bother.
Joined: 4/5/2011
Posts: 61
Marx wrote:
pacifist:-no kills , no damage, no sub weapon. This is quite semi paficist(feos request).
Pacifist doesn't necessarily mean no damage or sub-weapon. In fact, allowing sub-weapons creates a much more difficult optimization problem than having a lot of rules in place. But a semi-pacifist run in the pacifist category is quite a stretch. It'd be like the warpless SMB walkathon, but allowing running when necessary (although the pure walkathon was later proved possible).
Noxxa
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Marx, why did you change the category from "pacifist" to "6%"? Could you explain to me what this 6% means? And does the number 6 mean anything special? Arbitrary numbers often do not make for good categories.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Marx: Just to be clear, I liked the run overall. I hope you will go through it again and fix the issues we've pointed out, and submit a new improved version.