Post by Bladegash

Posted: 5/22/2005 7:09 PM

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Deviance

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706

Wikipedia is a great source of information

It can also be a great source of misinformation. To say that I'm "simply dismissing it because it's a public wiki" is an assumption in itself. For over a year now, wikipedia has stated that Wilhelm Steinitz was a passionate tapdancer who regretted never competing with Eduardo Corrochio (think "Seinfeld") for the world title. Since few people know the truth, the misinformation has spread to many sites and is now considered "fact". Want another example, check out this page on what it means to "Level up" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_up.

Posted: 5/22/2005 7:59 PM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

Wilhelm Steinitz was the first official World Champion in chess, if I remember right...

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 5/22/2005 11:05 PM

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Queen.Zeal

Joined: 5/22/2005
Posts: 5

Despite the fact that the term time attack may be misleading, the fact remains that a substantional number of people call tool-assisted speedruns time attacks. As such, I don't believe editing out all references to time attacks in the wikipedia entry for tool-assisted speedruns is appropriate. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you can pretend it doesn't exist or doesn't happen. On that note, the recent history of wikipedia's entry for tool-assisted speedruns is interesting. It's pretty much been deleted and merged with the speedrun article, where it has had the following statement made about it:

Unassisted speedruns are usually considered more impressive, since they require the most skill, planning, and practice to pull off. Official recordkeeping only considers unassisted speedruns.

I don't know about you folks, but I think that statement is biased against tool-assisted speedruns. Further, it's been my observation that the speedrun community generally does not see eye to eye with the tool-assisted speedrun community. Merging the two articles is only going to make wikipedia's discussion of time attacks progressively more biased, IMHO.

Posted: 5/23/2005 3:09 AM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (769)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

The title of this thread uses the term 'timeattack,' which is term that I prefer, but some of the discussion is about the term 'time attack.' My view is that these two terms should not be considered as the same thing. Example: 1a. I have a gold fish. (could be any fish that has a gold color) 1b. I have a goldfish. (could only refer to that particular species) I don't think that a timeattack is a) a time attack or b) a type of speedrun. I've written about this position on my website and on the Vortiginous forums. I don't really care about converting people to my view though; Bisqwitians may disagree.

Posted: 5/23/2005 3:13 PM

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Boco

Former player

Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination

Bladegash wrote:

Does that mean Mega Man and MegaMan are two different people?

Yes, actually. With the space it refers to Rock (original series), without it refers to Site (EXE series). The Japanese names of course do not have spaces so they're differentiated by Rockman and Rockman.exe.

someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.

Posted: 5/23/2005 5:07 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (278)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Bladegash wrote:

Does that mean Mega Man and MegaMan are two different people?

Yes, and so are Meggerman, MegaRockMan, MeggerMan, MeggleMan, Megger Man, RockMegger Man, Rockymeggerstupidman, RainbowMan, Rockerlockerman, Meggerogmin, Rainbow Senshi Miracle Kid, Rainbow Miracle Senshi Kid, Eggerman, Eggman, SuperFightingRobotMeggerMan, Rock-et Man-et, Rock-It Lawn-Chair, Rickety Rockety, Meggar man, Meggor Man, Ultra Mega Dan, Rainbow KidMan, and Meggie man. Get your names straight, or I'll have you Mega-banned!

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 5/23/2005 5:24 PM

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schneelocke

Joined: 11/11/2004
Posts: 400
Location: ::1

Deviance wrote:

It can also be a great source of misinformation. To say that I'm "simply dismissing it because it's a public wiki" is an assumption in itself. For over a year now, wikipedia has stated that Wilhelm Steinitz was a passionate tapdancer who regretted never competing with Eduardo Corrochio (think "Seinfeld") for the world title. Since few people know the truth, the misinformation has spread to many sites and is now considered "fact". Want another example, check out this page on what it means to "Level up" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_up.

If a Wikipedia article is factually wrong, then by all means, correct it. If someone else disagrees with you and thinks that the original version was correct, then discuss the whole affair on the talk page. If nothing else works, you can always tag the article as being disputed with regard to factual accuracy while the discussion goes on. If that doesn't work, there's a conflict resolution process with several stages that you can try (list the page on WP:RfC; if that doesn't work, ask for mediation; if that doesn't work, ask for arbitration). The one thing that I cannot stress enough, though, is that you should be able to back up your claims and cite sources. "The article is wrong and I just know it" doesn't cut it. ^_~

Posted: 5/23/2005 6:35 PM

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Deviance

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706

I tried correcting it before, but the person just changed it back. The problem is, the origins of the claims are so obscure that they are hard to disprove. How do I know the claim is false? I know the person who wrote it, and by now there are so many people who have believed the lie that it's hard to convince them. The dozens of other sites that just copy material straight out of wikipedia aren't helping. I refuse to change it partially because I find the whole thing humorous. Everytime at a tournament that I hear "hey, did you know that Steinitz was really a tapdancer?" just makes me laugh on the inside. :P

Posted: 5/23/2005 6:51 PM

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Warp

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

Arc wrote:

I don't think that a timeattack is a) a time attack

Semantics. To 99.9% of people they are the same term.

or b) a type of speedrun.

The term directly implies that the run is done as fast as possible. It means that the player is running against the clock, trying to get a time as small as possible, attacking the time. Why would you call the gradius video a timeattack? Which time is being minimized there? Granted, tool-assisted speedrun is not a good term for the gradius video either, but tool-assisted run sounds just perfect. If you have a problem with the "run" part, then perhaps "tool-assisted play" might be better. However, "timeattack" just isn't it.

Posted: 5/23/2005 7:27 PM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

I still think if a game is completed as fast as theoretical possible (with help of tools) it can be called a timeattack since the time is saved in the moviefile, so its the same like completing a racing course in as fast as possible time. But I personally don't care to much how to call such runs because it matches both cases in my opinion.

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 5/23/2005 7:27 PM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (769)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

Semantics. To 99.9% of people they are the same term.

Well, then place me in the .1% of people who say that the space distinguishes the terms. Appealing to the majority isn't a reason to believe an idea.

Why would you call the gradius video a timeattack?

I wouldn't. I'd call it and other movies that are unconcerned with time 'aesthetic.'

Posted: 5/23/2005 8:24 PM

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Michael_Fried

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

I think someone suggested calling them emu rape runs, but I suppose that might be offending, so how about we call them emurape runs instead since clearly that has nothing to do with raping. Also, one of the guys who took part in the gamefaqs flamewar suggested the term tool assisted speedruns, or just ass movies for short, so another alternative could be calling them assmovies. Here's another possibility: since you're basing your reasoning off of that you can use the term timeattack just because it isn't taken already because you cleverly removed the space, how about just calling them vngqavhnpaiodfusgvh runs. I'm sure that would be a great way to make sure people are informed. Another thing I should point out is that your reason of why "timeattacks" shouldn't be called tool-assisted speedruns doesn't make sense. You say that they're not really speedruns. Why not? Since when has speedrun meant that it has to be continuous any more than time attack meant that? Again, you only think that because you felt like making up a definition of speedrun, and I don't see it on your site now, but I remember it used to say that it means that because it has "run" in it, which implies continuity. However, now I'll use your own logic against you and say that speedrun is a single word and doesn't have to be related to what "run" might imply about it. Anyway, my point is that time attack always meant what the wikipedia article says, and has nothing to do with using save states. You can't just make up a new misleading word that's very similar to a word that means something totally different, decide that it has a certain definition, and then always use it to describe something and assume that your term is descriptive and that people will know what you're talking about. I assume we all agree that "vngqavhnpaiodfusgvh run" is a bad term. Why you ask? Because it's not descriptive, it doesn't differentiate it from an original console run, it explains nothing about how it was made, and people won't know what you're talking about and will just be misleaded and confused. Timeattack is a bad term for the same reason. As for what they should be called, it depends where they're being discussed. If you're talking about a TAS on another forum, I'd recommend avoiding all confusion and just calling them "save state runs", which people would probably be even more likely to understand than "tool-assisted speedruns." On this forum TAS would of course be fine, and if a TAS is being discussed then simply calling it a run (in the topic where it's being discussed) would be fine. For example, if I mention "VIPer7's 96 exit SMW run" in the need help with Super Mario World topic, people would know what I'm talking about. As for what "unassisted" speedruns should be called, again it depends where you're discussing them. On SDA, or in the speedrun competitions section of this forum, they should just be called speedruns. In a section where most of the runs discussed are save state runs, one possibility is original console runs, or 2 other more popular terms (which are used on SDA) are single segment (SS) runs, which are continuous runs through the whole game, and segmented runs, which are done one section at a time where you're allowed to redo each section until you're happy with it. Both single segment runs and segmented runs are runs without the use of save states. Edit: I guess while I'm at it I should also mention another thing about Arc's site that bothers me. In the aesthetics section, save state runs and non-save state runs are mixed together without specifying which is which.

Posted: 5/23/2005 9:03 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Active player (278)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Arc wrote:

Appealing to the majority isn't a reason to believe an idea.

Yes it is

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 5/23/2005 10:33 PM

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nifboy

Former player

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375

I don't think it's worth it to try and explain the difference (if any) between "Speed run" and "time attack" to everyone who's already inferred that the two terms mean the same thing. Differentiating between "Time attack" and "timeattack" is about ten or twenty times more confusing. Just my two bits.

Posted: 5/23/2005 11:17 PM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (769)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

I keep timeattacks distinct from speedruns because of my even less popular view that timeattackers do not play the same games that speedrunners do. The speedrunners and I discussed this topic in this thread. I think that this view that the games are different is necessary in order to avoid being labeled (correctly) as cheaters. 'Tool-assisted' is too euphemistic. I would write more if I weren't thinking that it would be a waste of time.

Posted: 5/24/2005 12:47 AM

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Michael_Fried

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

'Tool-assisted' is too euphemistic. How is tool assisted too euphemistic? Because it doesn't mention what the tools are? It's certainly better than timeattack, which doesn't even mention there are tools being used.

Posted: 5/24/2005 3:07 AM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (769)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

Yes, because it is vague about what the tool is. Is it a keyboard? A hammer? It is really 'emulator-with-rerecording-and-slowdown-functions assisted.' Which one of these sounds better: 1a. Today I saw a bird of prey of the genus Falco that has a short, curved beak and long, pointed, powerful wings adapted for swift flight. 1b. Today I saw a falcon. I would go with 1b, although it doesn't mention the wings or beak or anything. I would also go with a sentence that contains the word 'timeattack' instead of one with a long phrase that defines it.

Posted: 5/24/2005 3:32 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

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Posts: 3107
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You're missing one part: timeattack was used to describe another phenomenon before what we do started appearing. So a better comparison would be: 1a. Today I saw a bird of prey of the genus Falco that has a short, curved beak and long, pointed, powerful wings adapted for swift flight. 1b. Today I saw a raccoondog. There is already something called a raccoon dog, which is also a form of animal. But I removed the space and decided that it is a completely new word which actually means the same thing as 1a. See where the problem is in this? It just confuses things even further. My money is on TAS, because it is already an accepted term. The runner-up would be savestate run (or save state run, if you think that it is different). Another thing: when it comes to facts, scientific or other, appealing to popular opinion does not help. With languages that doesn't work, because language is defined by nothing but popular opinion. If the dictionary says e.g "default" means "flaw", but everyone uses it to mean "standard settings", the dictionary is out of luck. Words only mean what people agree they mean.

Posted: 5/24/2005 4:08 AM

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Deviance

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706

There are problems with every term used so far. Since the word tool is not very specific, people might wonder whether video editing was used since that can be a tool. People who've never used an emulator are probably wondering the heck a savestate is, and those who see the word "time attack" are probably wondering whether this game was played in some sort of time attack mode. I sometimes call them RRR, for repeated recording run, but there may be people who don't like that either. So let's pick one and move on.

Posted: 5/24/2005 4:11 AM

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Michael_Fried

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107

I would also go with a sentence that contains the word 'timeattack' instead of one with a long phrase that defines it. Since when has 2 words (tool assisted) been considered a long phrase? Anyway, the problem with your analogy is that falcon really does mean that, so there's no problem with using the word falcon. Now suppose that Paper Mario collects lots of badges and items and levels up a lot and gets really strong. What should I call him, 1a, a brief description much like tool assisted is, or 1b, a word I just made up that means what I just described? 1a. Powered-up Paper Mario 1b. PaperMario Here's another example. Suppose someone takes 20 different drugs before competing in Table Tennis in the Olympics. I understand your concern about not wanting to go into a long description about what all the drugs were, but which would would be a better choice for a news reporter to put in his article? 1a. After he won the medal for his drug-enhanced Table Tennis performance, his secret was found out and he was disqualified. 1b. After he won the medal for his TableTennis performance, his secret was found out and he was disqualified.

Posted: 5/24/2005 4:19 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Meh, it's all a popularity contest. Once a word gets popular, that's what we're stuck with.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 5/24/2005 4:24 AM

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Ouzo

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Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota

Can't we just go back to making kickass movies?

Posted: 5/24/2005 4:28 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Joined: 5/29/2004
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No, we have to sit around getting mad about being called cheaters or tool-users or rapists or Quark or something

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 5/24/2005 5:30 PM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (769)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

1a. Powered-up Paper Mario

It's ok to use an adjective here because there is agreement that a powered-up Paper Mario is a type of Paper Mario. In our case, there isn't agreement that a 'tool-assisted' speedrun is really a type of speedrun. I say that it's a different type of thing that deserves a new term.

There is already something called a raccoon dog, which is also a form of animal. But I removed the space and decided that it is a completely new word which actually means the same thing as 1a. See where the problem is in this? It just confuses things even further.

Why such reluctance to form a compound word? New example: 1a) I hope that we have a large number of people gathered for our particular event or purpose. 1b) I hope that we have a large turnout. Is 'turnout' incorrect or confusing, because 'turn out' already has other meanings, such as 'to shut off' or 'to be found to be?'