Me thinks would be intresting. Definetly possible for a sub 2 hour run but where can we go with luck manipulation and the power of the missingno glitch?
I say this run would be a very easy project! I'll definetly give it a shot.
Joined: 6/21/2004
Posts: 247
Location: New Hampshire
Might as well do this, also: http://boards.bluegoop.net/archive/index.php/t-9521.html
I seem to remember someone saying it's the 'using fly before someone sees you' that makes the trick work and that it could probably be reproduced elsewhere earlier in the game, but I don't know anything about that. It's worth looking into, though. And if all else fails it'd still be worth doing as written. :)
Good luck with this.
<Neclea>Gavin Ward <Sprint>WHAT? WHERE?
<oldskoolgamer101>What a stupid name!
oldskoolgamer101 was kicked from # soniccenter by Sprint [ says you , kimpy ]
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
papajones wrote:
I say this run would be a very easy project!
I highly doubt that.
Tons of fighters to choose from, and extremely hard to know in advance which would have been faster.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
If you're going to time attack Pokemon:
1) Rerecord every hit until you get a critical (is this even possible? I'm not exactly keen on how the game calculates crap)
2) Fight ONLY when you have to - trainers that are absolutely unavoidable, gym leaders, etc.
3) Go with Squirtle as a starter. It gets the most out of a single-Pokemon run. Ice Beam/Surf/Earthquake can all go on it, if memory serves. That alone drops pretty much all of the E4. If EQ is out of the way, use Dig. I did. Get Ice Beam's TM as soon as you can (ie: Just after getting out of the cave you need Flash (*snort* not bloody likely) for. Ice'll take care of those pesky Flying types, too.
4) You'll need one to two support Pokemon. Me, I caught an Oddish before Vermillion and a Rhyhorn in the Safari Zone on my way to get the Golden Teeth and HM03. This'll let you Cut and use Strength, respectively.
5) Get the bike and use it everywhere you possibly can.
6) Don't bother with Flash. Just memorize the cave & trainer layout
7) Buy Repels. If you keep Squirtle and its evolved forms as your only Pokemon, its level will be ridiculously high. Use this to your advantage and use Repel to keep Wild Pokemon battles away. Going into your menu and re-selecting one every so often takes MUCH less time than getting into and running from wild battles.
I can't think of anything else, but... meh, those are the basics. If the speed run can get under 2:50, reason stands that the time attack could possibly get anywhere from 10 to 50 minutes faster. Depending, of course.
I couldn't time my run earlier since I used speed-up. The in-game clock had a seizure and claimed my final time was over 14 hours somehow. It couldn't have been more than 3 real-time, and I fought every trainer not in the water. >>; AND fought the occasional wild Pokemon.
Actually, everything in the game is abuseable. It's abuseable on Dragon Warrior levels. You can choose when you fight wild Pokemon, you can manipulate the path of NPCs, you can manipulate your accuracy (and whether you get a critical or not), you can manipulate what moves your opponent makes, you can manipulate your opponent's accuracy (in fact, like with FF1 there is a 1/256 chance that any given attack will miss, no matter how accurate - yes this includes Swift), you can manipulate how often additional effects/ailments occur (I planned on abusing Bite early to mid game to make opponents always flinch).. the sky's the limit with this game. All you really have to worry about is what route you plan and effective management of your attacks, and you should be able to win the entire game with a single Pokemon.
With the versatility you'll have later on I don't see a time saving use for either the Missingno glitch (either for catching high level Pokemon or glitching myself rare candies to bump my Pokemon to lv100), or the Trainer/Fly glitch. The EXP you'll get from required battles will be more than enough to get the levels you need to rampage through the game.
And, for those who are curious, my current WIP is almost at Bill's house, a good 12-13 ingame minutes faster than the SDA run.. and this includes a massive timewaster which resulted in a good 30 seconds tacked onto the time (I thought I could make it all the way to Bill's house from the start of the game without needing to visit a Pokecenter, but ran out of PP two required trainers away, so I needed to go all the way back and heal.. and didn't want to redo ALL those trainers in Vermillion again). Also, I was speed running the Japanese Pocket Monsters Green, to let everyone be able to see the horrible, horrible original monster graphics of the game XD
If you want to see the WIP, I'll be more than happy to post it here.
I can confirm what Tilus says. Everything in this game is effected by a RNG. Including the starting stats of your pokemon. So you might want to make sure you get a good one.
I'd love to see the WIP.
And yes, those trainers in Vermillion are f*cking annoying.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
which trainers in vermilion? There are only 2 forced battles (Rival and Lt. Surge).
Consider getting zapdos, it defeats sabrina and lorelei with no problem and might kill some of the rival's pokemon faster.
Criticals don't do exactly 2x damage, it might be better sometimes if it is not a critical.
Ugh... I hate downloading movies from there. Why cant they just have a torrent setup so you dont have to download every segment individually? Geez
ftp://ia108035.us.archive.org/3/items/PokemonRed_240
Every run on archive.org has a ftp link, just put that url into your favorite client and download 'em all that way.
Well, that certainly explains the matter. And technically even Rival isn't forced, but a pokemon with cut can't be traded. The cerulean trainers really are annoying, too many grasses with stun spore and poisonpowder. Against squirtle...
And a speedrun would be really boring. Menuwars without any kind of attack graphics. And if nobody knows (I doubt it, thought) random battles can be prevented by stopping for a while right before the battle. Blastoise will probably be around level 50 in the end. Earthquake is behind a single trainer in the 10th or 11th floor in Silph co.
Consider getting zapdos, it defeats sabrina and lorelei with no problem and might kill some of the rival's pokemon faster.
Ach, no. No Zapdos. It isn't needed EVER. I dunno why it was attained in the speed run. There's never really a time when you need an electric type. Sure, it could get rid of a FEW things faster, but the time it saves is completely negated by the time it takes to GET IT.
Ice Beam, Surf, Dig, and Body Slam annihilates the rival's party just fine. If a Gyarados is involved, Body Slam takes MAYBE two shots. And with critical hit manipulation, that isn't really an issue. Ice Beam will drop the Pidgeot. Dig/Surf will handle the Arcanine. Body Slam handles the Alakazam, etc. The only E4 member handling water/ice types is Lorelei. Just Body Slam everything. S'what I did. One to two-hit KOs on all of them. And that's without critical hit manipulation.
No need whatsoever to get Zapdos.
I can confirm what Tilus says. Everything in this game is effected by a RNG. Including the starting stats of your pokemon. So you might want to make sure you get a good one.
I would imagine that the RNG is seeded as the game starts, so after you've saved some states, you'll get the same random nums on the same frames. You may have to skip frames to get what you want (e.g. criticals).
Zapdos seems useful in a real-life run. Doing E4 with Blastoise alone means you'll be out of PP quickly, and there's not many PP-replenish items lying about. Zapdos can take out Lorelei on his own very easily, and help against Gyarados later on. It costs about 2.5mins to get him. For an emu run, you may be able to get away with abusing criticals.
Abuse dig. The speedrun does a good job of this, so watch it :) It may be possible to nab an Abra near Cerulen and use it's Teleport once or twice, perhaps? You get Dig in Cerulean too, but you have to travel back and forth to Vermillion without being able to Dig anywhere I think, so a Teleport can save time.
The speedrun's time of 2:40 can probably drop by 30 minutes. There's lots of wild battles in it, since you can't get repels early. With states you can avoid them, especially in the caves (omgwtf die zubat die!). The other prob with the run is that he got so darn unlucky sometimes - he would pwn an enemy and it someone hangs on with like 1-5 hp left... grr! IIRC, non-critical hits have a bit of variation in their damage themselves. So for example, if the enemy hangs on with a couple of HP, try the hit a few more times and it can vary to be more than their health and kill 'em. In one fight, he got confused and hurt himself like 3 times in a row.. ouch.
30 mins sounds like a lot, but the majority of the speedrun is battles. Finish battles sooner = lots of time made up.
Doing E4 with Blastoise alone means you'll be out of PP quickly, and there's not many PP-replenish items lying about.
There's more than enough in your normal flight path that it won't matter. I think I had somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 Max Ethers, 1 regular Ether, and 1 or 2 forms of an Elixir. Elixirs are obviously more highly-prized since they restore PP of ALL your moves. Basically letting you fight until you have to Struggle and then restore yourself. Body Slamming most of Lorelei's Pokemon is MORE than enough. Not only is the critical rate for the move already rather high, but there's a chance of paralysis.
If you manipulate TO paralyze and KEEP paralyzed the opponent's Pokemon, you aren't going to be hit. Thus, you don't have to worry in case you need to use a PP-restoring item. And if you need ALL the uses of Body Slam against Lorelei alone, your level's not high enough to be dealing with the E4, anyway.
Consider getting zapdos, it defeats sabrina and lorelei with no problem and might kill some of the rival's pokemon faster.
Ach, no. No Zapdos. It isn't needed EVER. I dunno why it was attained in the speed run. There's never really a time when you need an electric type. Sure, it could get rid of a FEW things faster, but the time it saves is completely negated by the time it takes to GET IT.
This might matter in a speedrun, but a TAS is a different matter entirely. Encounter, Pokeball, End.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Sure, I'd watch the Pokemon Green run.
And if I recall correctly, you don't need to set the text speed to Fast, as turbo-tapping A during conversations will achieve the same speed or better.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Yeah, but it takes MAYBE half a second to switch options before starting a New Game. And that helps speed through Oak's chatty speech.
I have a question, which I posed in the chat a few minutes ago:
Would catching a pidgey/spearow and going slightly out of my way to get Fly (It would be en route to dealing with Snorlax) be faster or slower than using a Repel and taking Diglett Cave? Trying to work out which way would be fastest when going to Cinnabar. I'd assume Fly would be faster in the long run, because then you could Fly back to Viridian City instead of walking there.
[Edit: Knew I forgot something. I just did a test in Blue. From the time I started to the moment Bulbasaur got KOed was somewhere around 2:42. The speed run KOs Bulba at roughly 3:15. That's a pretty big difference. And it could be made much, much better. I should test to see if one Tail Whip would let me critical Bulbasaur out in two Tackles. If it COULD, it would be much faster than just manipulating for critical-hit Tackles.
Also, it seems you can get hits that are stronger than normal hits, but aren't quite critical. I ran into a number of these during the Bulba fight at the start and was never quite sure of what caused them. I just know that everyfew rerecords, Squirtle did significantly more damage than usual. That being said, I manipulated for three criticals and got two of the strong hits. I also got Growled at twice and Tackled once. Bulba misses Tackle more often than critical hits show up. Make of that what you will. But it SHOULD be possible to take Bulbasaur out in 3 turns. 4, definitely. 3 is only possible if the Tail Whip thing works, I believe.
I think with proper manipulation, you could 3-hit KO Bulbasaur without taking a single Tackle OR Growl and get the time to around 2:30. 45 seconds faster than the speed run would be nice. Definitely a good start to breaking 2:30... I don't think a sub-2-hour run is possible, but... >>;]
IIRC, non-critical hits have a bit of variation in their damage themselves. So for example, if the enemy hangs on with a couple of HP, try the hit a few more times and it can vary to be more than their health and kill 'em. In one fight, he got confused and hurt himself like 3 times in a row.. ouch.
All attacks, except nightshade, seismic toss, dragon rage and sonicboom (any others?) have a certain amount of randomness (the end of the damage calculation is ...*255/X, where X is a random number between 217 and 255. This applies for critical hits too. The beginning of the damage calculation is 2A/5+2, where A is the level and CHs double it. After that, it's pure multiplication except for an odd +2 damage which doesn't do almost anything).
For more random babbling, getting Zapdos would really require the use of master ball. It is about impossible to do it otherwise. But I understand now why you won't get it :P
Fly will help you get to Lavender from Celadon quickly, from Fuschia (how is it written?) to Pallet, from Cinnabar to Viridian. I think it should be gotten. And getting a strenght slave might not be the fastest way, because blastoise can learn it and it is a whopping 5 base power lower than body slam and can't paralyze. No idea how much those 2 "minor" things help compared to the small amount of time it takes to catch a slave.
Meh, I'm writing random things again.
Yeah, but it takes MAYBE half a second to switch options before starting a New Game. And that helps speed through Oak's chatty speech.
Never mind, I had it backwards, sorry. I just checked, and turbo-tapping seems to be slower. And you want to go to the menu anyway to turn off the battle animations and set the battle style, right? I would think you would choose Set rather than Shift, but again I might be forgetting something...
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
