Post subject: Turok 2 Seeds of Evil
Joined: 4/1/2010
Posts: 6
I played the first 3 Turoks on N64, and then a few next gen versions that failed on many levels. Nothing came close to what I experienced in this title, despite its flaws with lag and mechanics. The levels were complex and huge. I often got lost, something that not many first person shooters have been able to replicate, and the music was on another level. In my opinion, this is an area that can really add another layer to a game. The enemies were also much more interesting; much more then future iterations. Mantids, Blind ones, Purrlin, undead and the occasional Raptor kept things interesting. The game was not just an excuse to make big dinosaurs to shoot with guns, like I felt in more recent versions. With that said, is a TAS possible? I have zero experience in this area, and am afraid I don't have the time to produce, much less learn how to to best achieve this with my current obligations. Although I am a huge fan of this site and all the retro gaming I get to see destroyed, and this was a game I felt deserved a to be TASed. There will be those that argue entertainment, and length, but I've seen many longer games with less action and entertainment. While this is entirely subjective, I thought I'd ask if there was any interest by others, or if anything was currently in development.
Experienced player (828)
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I looked into it after doing Turok 1, and found that a major problem would be time. It's a long enough game as it is, and unlike the first in the series, so many of the additional level objectives have to be completed before moving on (instead of just picking up keys here or there). I could imagine it being (as a total out of my ass guess) at least 1.5, may be upwards of 2 hours, which is a lot of strafe running. The other issue I remember is that it is incredibly desync prone due to the expansion pack, and AFAIK Mupen hasn't been upgraded in forever. If that's been fixed, it would be possible, just a bit project.
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It is a nice game I have never beaten, because I don´t own a controller pack. I am looking forward to see a TAS of it.
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Joined: 4/1/2010
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Well, I appreciate the response. I could definitely see how the xpac would lead to issues without proper emulation. As far as length, I was curious if any glitches were known to expedite the process. Clipping or damage boosts that can lead to areas meant only by use of special abilities obtained in future levels through eagle feathers. I can tell you from personal experience, I've had some clipping issues after being boosted into walls, ect. This was after recently playing the game again, since I had that restro feeling.
Experienced player (608)
Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706
One thing to consider is that Turok 2 was also available on the PC. If slowdown is an issue (I, personally, found it to be) then, perhaps someday the PC version could be TAS'd.
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The SDA thread has some good stuff in it. Have a look through here.
Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 17
Location: England
I'm the runner of the PC version in that thread and I very much feel a TAS of this game would be very entertaining just through the experience of running it and optimizing the game myself. There's a whole slew of tricks and glitches to exploit. Some I think will surprise you an eliminate most of the backtracking that seems to invoke some of the hate this game garnered. Water boosting - Double tapping forward just under the surface of water and jumping out to give Turok his increased speed and you can hold it for as long as possible until you enter another portal then it disappears. There are different levels of speed depending on how you do the double tap and quick jump out. so maximum speed is essential, but that's easy to do. It can be used anytime there is water so levels 1, 2 and 4 have huge time saving potential. It also works on the fans in level 6 - Primagens Lightship, although it appears the speed increase is slightly less, but it still enables some excellent skips and long periods of increased speed which my next upload on my youtube page will show. Overhead item jump - items floating in the air above your head can be gotten no matter high high above your head they are with a certain type of jump. Stand underneath the item, look up at it (might not actually be needed?) jump and turn slightly in the air. I believe it really helps to push forward slightly during the turn. Several items throughout the game can be got like this with pretty much no limit on height for what can be collected. You can see some huge skips from this trick including collecting the level 2 P-key from the first place you see it, instead of taking the intended path. Damage boosting - This one has small gains in the standard scheme of things and not all enemies give you a decent push. Except for the mantids and some enemies in level 6. One boost in the Hive which saves several minutes, and another in the Lightship saves about a minute. You can avoid the backtrack to the Hive of the manitids to get the Primagen key with a damage boost from the mantid at the eye of truth bridge leading up to the Key. In fact in this run you don't need to collect the eye of truth at all. You see the bridges are still there, but invisible, but only a small portion is missing at the beginning which is why you fall. A damage boost will clear this gap and land Turok safely on the rest of the bridge even though it's invisible. For the other damage boost you have to get a damage boost from a wheel bot in The Primagens lightship to clear the gap leading up to the last switch which needs to be pressed to bring down one of the four force fields surrounding the last P-key. The level order for the first 3 levels should go: 1, 3, 2. Level 3 before 2 grants you the souls talisman which grants you some water boost opportunities early in level 2 which contain soul water, and also a glitch/trick which I was too late in finding out unfortunately in my run, which involves jumping into the river and jumping out and through the raised bridge. The bridge somehow doesn't block and you go straight through it, so no need to do a 20 second or so detour to shoot the switch to lower the bridge. For the next levels it's pretty hard to see whether level 4 before 5, or vice versa is faster. There's probably not much in it, but some proper testing will need to be done. For my run I did level 4, then 5. Reason for that was you get the torpedo launcher in level 4 which speeds up the water sections in level 5. But on the other hand doing level 5 first would mean you'd have the whispers talisman so you can clean up the level 4 P-key and the rest of the level in one fell swoop. If it's feasible at this time I would say Tasing the PC game is the better option. Strafing for one is smoother and faster and closer in style to more modern first person shooters. The N64 version strafing was really bad for some reason and it may prevent some really cool skips due to the a possible loss of speed. Anyone interested in TASing this game I strongly suggest watching my WIP of the PC game which uses many segments for best optimal play as I feel it provides a strong backbone on which to plan a TAS just from the sheer number of tricks me and Squeebles on the SDA thread found. My latest run is the Hive so if you want to start from Port of Adia, it's just a little further down the list. I'm currently running/optimizing the Lightship http://www.youtube.com/user/Giganotabehemoth87?feature=mhee Any questions I'd be glad to help answer.
Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 17
Location: England
After some testing I came to the conclusion that level 5 before 4 is faster by a fairly big margin. If you do level 4 first, the backtrack there later on after level 5 to get the P-key takes around 40 odd seconds in my real-time play test. Even though level 4 first does give you torpedo launcher early for all the water sections in level 5. It only speeds level 5 up by a total of around 10 - 12 seconds. So it's better to go through level 5 first, without torpedo launcher, then do level 4 with the whispers talisman, get the level 4 P-key and finish the level in one fell swoop. Which would be at least 25 seconds faster than otherwise. Unless some way to collect the p-key from it's observable high up platform on the main route is discovered, I think this is likely going to stay as the most optimal level order: 1-3-2-5-4-6 Unfortunately for my Speed run WIP, I had already done the slower level order before I carried out these tests. But not to worry too much though. I still think my target of sub 2 hours is feasible at this present time.
Experienced player (608)
Joined: 10/23/2004
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I'm glad to hear about your progress on this :)
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Joined: 5/3/2011
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Glad to hear it :) Well this here ends my speed run. The final installment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yN6HeCF-b4&list=UUKmj3sjhftsArlzcfOjxFSg&index=1&feature=plcp I'll be submitting this to SDA very soon, and I did manage to sub 2 hours, getting 1 hour 55 minutes and 26 seconds !. At least by in-game time that is. I could have probably improved this entire run by 1 - 2 minutes by doing the better level order of Hive first, Lair second; The trick in River of souls to jump through the raised bridge and just generally being tad more perfect in each segment, totems, bosses etc. But other than this I'm very happy with it. I'd say a TAS would probably get in the early 1 hour 40 minutes range, possibly 1 hour 30 minutes. Providing nothing else major gets discovered. If something does like passing Turok through solid walls and doors/out of bounds trickery then obviously it could be significantly lower. Though I'm not particularly interested in this level of game breaking personally.
Joined: 10/29/2012
Posts: 22
I was thinking of TASing this game eventually. I too am a runner of the PC port, I'm more single-segment/real time oriented. Here's a few runs I've made: Port of Adia 12:27.00 (WR) Death Marshes 10:47.63 River of Souls 17:47.02 (WR) First 3 missions 44:44.17 (WR) So what is the Mupen-status on this? Is it TASable, does anyone know? I think it would be slower than the PC version though, because of insane lag and less efficient water boosting. My best time on Port of Adia is about 25 minutes on PJ64 with a keyboard, whereas my record (which is also WR) on PC is 12:27.00. The quality of the runs isn't comparable but I know for a fact that on an N64, 12 minutes is not possible. It's a very sad thing that the PC port is not TASable because I would do it!
nfq
Player (93)
Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204
Bismuth wrote:
So what is the Mupen-status on this? Is it TASable, does anyone know?
It's much more TASable than Turok 3 at least, and I made a TAS of Turok 3. I remember testing this a few years ago, and there were less desyncs than in Turok 3.
It's a very sad thing that the PC port is not TASable because I would do it!
Why not TAS the N64 version? There is a Windows TAS emulator called Hourglass, but I'm not sure if you can TAS Turok 2 with it.
Joined: 10/29/2012
Posts: 22
iirc hourglass does not support mouse input, so the pc port is out of the question. I prefer the pc version because it has much less lag and fog, and is general smoother to play. I'm starting a TAS today, so far I've done only the menu navigation, so I am now at the very beginning of Port of Adia. I've already done 4700 input frames! :D also how do you prevent desyncs? is there any way out of if it desyncs your work is all scrapped?
nfq
Player (93)
Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204
Bismuth wrote:
also how do you prevent desyncs? is there any way out of if it desyncs your work is all scrapped?
To prevent desyncs, you can TAS a few thousand frames, then stop the recording and play back the movie from the beginning to see if it syncs, then you can continue the TAS a little bit again, and later play it back again. If you get a desync, all you can basically do is redo from the part where the desync started, that's why I TAS bit by bit in games which have desync issues. By TASing, you can see by yourself how many frames you can TAS at a time before you risk getting a desync.
Joined: 10/29/2012
Posts: 22
The problem I get a lot when I tas is that I somehow always mess up the movie and realize way too late that it stopped recording a long time ago... yesterday I had a bit of stuff up to the first power cell and then I realized everything since the beginning of port of adia was not recording. Do I suck at TASing? yes.
nfq
Player (93)
Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204
Bismuth wrote:
The problem I get a lot when I tas is that I somehow always mess up the movie and realize way too late that it stopped recording a long time ago... yesterday I had a bit of stuff up to the first power cell and then I realized everything since the beginning of port of adia was not recording. Do I suck at TASing? yes.
You should look at the frame counter at the bottom of the emulator. If it shows frames, you know that it's recording. It shouldn't stop recording by itself, unless you press the hotkeys that stop the recording.
Joined: 10/29/2012
Posts: 22
when I load different savestates, when I quit and come back to it, whenever I do something I mess everything up all the time lol, I'm not used to TASing and I never got much into it because I always mess everything up in no time
nfq
Player (93)
Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204
Bismuth wrote:
when I load different savestates, when I quit and come back to it, whenever I do something I mess everything up all the time lol, I'm not used to TASing and I never got much into it because I always mess everything up in no time
Yeah, I used to mess things up too the first times I tried TASing. It sounds like maybe you're loading wrong save states, or maybe it's a desync. I sometimes forget which save state was the most recent, when I come back to it. But what I do is that I play the movie to a point where I want to continue the TAS, and I make a save state there, and then I load that state, and I continue from there. I would recommend to do that in games that have desync issues, because it might not work otherwise, because there can be an unnoticable desync, so that you can't continue from the save state you made when you TASed before, so you have to make a new one.
Joined: 10/29/2012
Posts: 22
Sorry guys, a TAS of Turok 2 is not gonna happen. I tried a few times and every time it desyncs when I try to change weapons (that is, at the very beginning when blowing up the first barrel), it just does not change weapons in the playback. Also the lag is so terrible there are 10-14 VIs in between the input and the reaction.
Joined: 10/29/2012
Posts: 22
I tried on BizHawk today and it looks like the playback does not desync when changing weapons. However, there is still an insane input delay that makes TASing this extremely frustrating (press input, fast forward 10 frames, go back, correct input, etc.). Everything has to be input many frames beforehand.
Patashu
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Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4042
Bismuth wrote:
I tried on BizHawk today and it looks like the playback does not desync when changing weapons. However, there is still an insane input delay that makes TASing this extremely frustrating (press input, fast forward 10 frames, go back, correct input, etc.). Everything has to be input many frames beforehand.
Is that part of the game's programming or Bizhawk specific? It also sounds like a problem that would be solved well by a TASEditor equivalent.
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Joined: 10/29/2012
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That is not an emulation issue, it's just the game being the most laggy N64 game out there.
Samsara
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Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2108)
Joined: 11/13/2006
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Trying 3D TASing for the first time with a quick test. Hardly optimized and I seriously doubt getting the boost from the water is done anywhere near optimally, but I guess it's fairly clean-looking so far. Sorry about the lacking video quality, haven't gotten my encoding setup back up and running yet. Link to video I mostly just did this to see how stable the game is and how stable TAStudio is with N64, and I can safely say both are pretty good, though I might actually turn this into a full project in the future if no one else does.
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Former player
Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1107
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
It might be a better idea to go for Turok 1 instead for your first 3D TAS. That game is significantly shorter, has much more of a community and also a published TAS to compare yourself to.
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
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Player (93)
Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204
Interesting, didn't know about the boost from the water. Turok "2" certainly runs incredibly slow compared to the first Turok. He hasn't been working out enough. A Turok 2 TAS might be more interesting than 1, because there is already a TAS of the first one which is decently optimized. And Turok 2 probably isn't that much longer than the first one, it's just that he walks much slower.