I had a little discussion about this with flagitious, so why not make it a public one
What do you think about the usage of pressing up+down or left+right simultaneously in the same frame?
The recent versions of the common emulators allow this, which can produce some funny glitches (like the Legend of Zelda video) or just have some very small positive side effects (like in Super Mario World)
However, this is not possible to perform on a normal console (unless you physically manipulate your controller or use a 3rd party controller). Yes of course, lots of other things performed in our videos are also not possible on a normal console for normal human players, but they *would* be possible if the player had superhuman slow-motion powers. So, in my eyes, this makes a difference
Another question is: Did the programmers expect any of those effects? Yes they probably also did not expect most of the other glitches, but that's just because they were too lazy to test everything out and fix it. However, there was no reason for them to fix any bugs produced by an input that is not possible with the normal controllers, so the effects might be totally random and unintended.
Conclusion: For me it's kinda unethical to use left+right or up+down and I refuse to use it in a speedrun, even if it would result in a benefit.
If you disagree, convince me of the opposite, please :)
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 146
Location: Dirty South, USA.
I'll have to disagree here. For me, this falls in the glitch category. Why use only some useful glitches, and not all? I do see your point, I just disagree. =)
If for honesty, you want apologies, I don't sympathize.
because we're not here to produce speed-runs as much as we are to produce entertaining movies that exploit the game and show it in exciting or WOW-type ways.
...thats why i disagree. as far as speed-runs, as in legit WRs, i agree with you... on some level... mainly because i used things like turbo controllers growing up (Track and Field 2).
This is the bisqwit's site equivalent of the good old abortion debate. People have their opinions about whether or not it should be allowed, but there will always be a difference in these opinions. The US abortion policy is similar to this site's policy in that it is allowed, but ultimately the individual decides if they want to do it or not.
This is a good policy, but it gets messy when the husband doesn't want the abortion and the wife does or vice versa. Luckily in real life the woman has more to do with the baby's birth than the man, so the woman gets the last word (I think :). However if you are working on a time attack with a partner there is equal responsibility for the baby... I mean video, so there isn't a way to decide.
I don't have much to argue right now, I just think speed is more important than the practicality of it being possible without modifying your controller. In response to /*-: Left+Right does not always reduce entertainment of a run, and in some cases it increases this entertainment.
Hopefully some good arguments can be made in this thread that will convert most of one side to the other.
We can have it both ways. Just say in the submission whether the movie uses opposite directions simultaneously (which possible on an unmodified Famicom by using a joystick and the original controller simultaneously). If it changes the game really that much, someone can make a run without it to show how much it changes.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
It's input accepted by the console (which is being emulated), so for that reason alone, I don't see a problem. Tool-assisted speedruns are all about injecting console-accepted input in order to get a certain result, and if using up+down is faster than a different technique, then I see no reason for it not to be used.
About the argument of it not being possible on a real controller--aren't we trying to surpass humane limits here, anyway? The limitation the the controller provides is the same, as it's only an obstacle which prevents from giving the console instructions fast enough.
It's input accepted by the console (which is being emulated), so for that reason alone, I don't see a problem. Tool-assisted speedruns are all about injecting console-accepted input in order to get a certain result
Indeed. The fact that the controller can't physically produce the up+down combination is irrelevant: Neither can our hands physically produce 30 Hz autofire.
We're abusing the games here, not the controllers.
The only counterargument I can have is about the cheapness rule:
- If the game has a debugging feature which has been built to up+down, it shouldn't be used.
- If up+down or left+right makes the game too different (look at Tiny Toons; SMB2 is on the edge), it shouldn't be accepted (think "is a game that can be beaten by simply pressing right all the time worth speedrunning").
Edit: And before someone goes nitpicking, I should mention that my definition of the "game" (NES and SNES) includes the ROM, but not the controller.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
One of the nes clones in brazil had a controller ripped off from the sega genesis, but the D-Pad would accidentally allow left+right and up+down sometimes, if you gave it enough pressure. So i dont see why its phisically impossible to do it.
And whats the problem with using a different controller? or an original nes one, but opened? on some games it helps beyond being able to press left+right, it makes you not press diagonals accidentaly.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Technically, the outside part of the controller gives issues with pressing opposite directions. If you unscrew it and press the contacts directly, it'll work.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Just throwing in my two cents, for what they're worth.
If I had to choose between a run that used it and a run that didn't, I would go with the run that didn't. It seems fake to me.
However, watching a totally glitched run can be amusing.
So I'm going to go with: accept both movies.
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
This may be just a rephrasing of what Bisqwit said, but here's the way I see it:
If up+down/left+right makes the movie faster without detracting from the entertainment value then it should be accepted. Similarly, if it enhances the entertainment value without slowing the movie down it should also be accepted. Players should not be expected to use it and are under no obligation to even test it, but they do so with the knowledge that their runs may later be obsoleted simply because someone else was willing to use the glitch. People can still view the older movie (on their emulators) if they believe it to be the better movie.
Keep in mind, here, that when you put "Aims for fastest time" in your movie's goals, that means that you have a responsibility to find every single way to speed up the movie you can. If you put that tag in your movie when you know the movie can actually be done 2.01 seconds faster by using an incredibly difficult manuver that you didn't feel like doing, then you've already conceded to the faster movie which will come along. The same applies to this glitch: if you don't use it even when you know it to be faster, then expect someone to use it and obsolete your movie.
Of course, if someone submitted a movie with the tag "Doesn't abuse programming errors," then I suppose we could consider that a separate movie. But I think that's sort of bending over backwards to please someone who finds something distasteful.
