Post subject: Dragon Ball: Advanced Adventure
Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
Lacking anything better do to, I decided to try this one out as my first speedrun attempt. I got it finished more or less, link below. http://koti.mbnet.fi/~gale/uploads/rs-dbaa.zip As stated, it's the first one I've ever attempted, so bear that in mind. Obviously critique is appreciated if people have any inside knowledge on this so-far obscure game with a nametag that might turn away some people. Some notes: -Doing 1-frame jumps cancels most of the recovery for ground attacks, and keeps you moving, so obviously it's used quite a bit. Also, if you jump at an exact frame you land from a running jump (there won't be a cloud of dust to signify a landing as normal), you retain running momentum even if you turn around, allowing you to save some frames whenever you jump in platform-heavy sections where you don't have to fight any enemies. -The "rush" special attack serves as an useful way to change directions while keeping you moving at a decent speed while also ignoring momentum. The reason it's not used more often is because it can't be cancelled out of and there can't be any enemies in its path or the actual attack is triggered. -I chose to collect both optional Ki upgrades to be able to spam the rush special attack on bosses as much as possible, as well as being able to do high-leveled Ki blasts in VS fights, as those do the most damage. -The dive kick seems to be the fastest way to move, but each kick has around 6 frames of startup lag. If used at a height where it won't be cut short and if it doesn't connect with any enemies, it seems to break even, though. -As seen many times in the movie, the best way to rack up insane hitcounts and score multipliers as well as killing all human bosses in one combo and rapidly damaging mech bosses is to use what I call Dive Kick Infinite Of Doom, which involves hitting a (preferably airborne) enemy with a dive kick, cancelling that into the upward kick, cancelling that into dive kick, and repeating as long as the enemy doesn't drop low enough to touch the ground. What's interesting is that doing this combo repeatedly actually lets you gain height, which means its use is only limited by what height the enemy is at when you connect with the first knockdown hit (which occurs either when a grounded enemy dies or a grounded human boss gets hit enough times in a row) -Obviously running is the main methoid of movement, as running speed carries over to jumps, and the running elbow attack can be used to start ground chains and kill enemies faster.
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
I hadn't heard of this game until you told me to watch your demo. I'm quite impressed with how you handle each area, especially since the whole game seems really action packed. However, it also seems like this is the kind of game where it will take wierd abuse of enemy AI in order to kill everything quickly. Maybe you should, like, take note of how much damage each kind of attack does so that you can focus on heavy hitting attacks at all times. edit: nevermind, i must be blind...
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
Enemy AI manipulation...I'm not quite sure how it could be manipulated much, or at least to an extent where it'd help much. And as for damage manipulation, it varies very little, and even if you tried to get the most of the damage out of each attack, you'd end up killing bosses 1 or 2 hits sooner, at best. Positive comments greatly appreciated regardless.
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 325
this was pretty fun to watch, i kinda like how you can just run through dumb enemies heh well good luck with the rest of the run and keep us posted when you completed stages, i didnt see anything that was bad in your 1st stage, but i have never played the game so i might not be the best judge on this
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
I only played the game for like 5 minutes (i don't know why, it looks like a very fun game and i'm a dragonball fan... but anyway, i can only say: more! as far as i can see, things look good, and it's very entertaining.
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
Just a reminder, the movie's been updated to include the next set of stages (next sidescrolling stage, rock-breaking minigame, VS training), since I'm not sure if you notice it from just edits alone.
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 325
your right , i didnt notice, you should just post the link everytime or do like you did so we notice =)
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
editing the first mssg, or posting a new link works fine for me. but if you edit the first mssg, then be sure to post you've updated it indeed :) *goes off to watch*
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
nesrocks
He/Him
Player (246)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
wow very cool, it looks all very well done. with all that, i dont know hwo you let a jump slip by and the pilaf castle. you jumped down a pit while going left, went right for a few secs so you had momentum for going left at max speed, but that looked really unoptimal as you passed very far from the wall. thats the only complaint i have that is your fault, the running was a little boring, but its not your fault and the fighting is very good, so no problem there.
Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
Right, that part...well, it was a long fall and there wasn't really much else I could think of doing, and as stated on the tips, you can only mash left and right so long before it starts to get tiresome, although I don't think it cost me any speed since you retain your running speed in jumps even if you change direction. I guess I should probably just hug the wall or whatever... On a somewhat related note, here's some stuff I'd like some input on... -There's an auto-scrolling flying stage coming up at one point, any suggestions on what I should do with that? I was thinking of doing DBAA's variation of the SMB3 movie and get a crapload of points and lives by singling out an enemy and doing the Dive Kick Infinite Of Doom on it for as long as room permits and then possibly repeating it on another enemy, or possibly doing it to several enemies simultaneously, but I guess that kinda gets old more or less. -Speaking of DKIOD, should I use that less in exchange for slightly less mobility and possibly finding out slightly slower but more varying ways to kill off enemies and bosses, as with Yamcha? -And still somewhat related to him, does reflecting enemy shots and bombs/missiles back at them make for more interesting fighting than just plain destroying them by hitting them or dodging them by jumping over them even if it takes slightly longer? -As I'm still kinda in the dark about how hit collision works in VS sections, I'm sure I could've done the VS segments so far quicker, although I'm not certain which is quicker: ticking down the enemy's guard until I can break it as soon as they land, doing away with extraneous air fighting by knocking the enemy into the ground right after I use the Ki blast on them, or not doing any air fighting at all and just parrying and countering everything and working in the Ki blasts in there somehow (since they do damage the fastest, and charging up one in VS slows you down in far fewer ways that it does in platform sections). Assuming they all end up doing close to the same amount of time, which one of them would you prefer to see most, or rather an even mix of 3? And still related to above, I updated my movie a bit to include the first 3 Tenkaiichi Budokai fights: as stated, I'm sorry if those fights don't seem quite as interesting as normal fighting, even though logic would dictate otherwise.
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
Wauw, i played the game by myself and the game is amazing. it brings back memories, so i'm gonna watch DB again ^_^ the game itself can also be incredibly hard when you don't know what to do. with the japanese text and all, not been playing from the start (i played from where your movie ended, at chouzu) i din't know much about the controls in the early stage. especially the emperor pilaf 3 robot transformation fight was incredibly hard for me. so seeing you beating these guys so fast is awesome to see. anyway, in the first level, the first purple pteradoctail you enctourer, you wait for it to fly lower, and then combo his ass. wouldn't it be faster to attack him in the air, ie a upwards kick, plus a powerpole hit? just a thought also, when in the jungle, looking for roshi's stone, there are some blocks that block your path, so you destroy them, and can then move on. you destroy all blocks, while you could easily only destroy the first line, and then jump over the 2nd/3rd. those are 2 points that came up to me after finishing the game and watching your wip run again. anyway, doesn't kicking back missles do pretty much damage? if you're not close, and can kick back the missle, i guess it would be best to kick it back? unless you can't combo into all those fiercy attacks then... (meaning if it's slower, don't do it, even though it looks cool) as for your other questions, i'm afraid that whatever is fastest, must be executed. i like veriety, but if something can be done faster, i'm afraid that for this kind of run, you'll have to do just that.
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that pterodactyl can be killed with an air combo quicker, but seeing as it was the #3 enemy in my run ever and #1 flying enemy in my run ever, I wasn't particulary experienced in dealing with them at that point. And as for those blocks...yeah, it would've probably been smarter to just destroy 1 of them and jump over the rest. I think I'll get over the DKIOD abuse some day, hopefully. And yeah, when you don't have to specifically wait for an enemy to use a projectile attack, reflecting them back at them is usually quicker than killing them normally. As every enemy attack does more damage on Hard, reflecting the said attacks back will do a lot more damage than on lower difficulties, as seen from the 301 points of damage that one RR trooper took when I kicked his grenade back at him. I almost wish I won't kill RR Battle Jacket so fast that he can't get a chance to use his huge missile attack, I'm half-expecting that thing to do 4-digit damage when reflected back. As for the statement "speed is #1", that's not entirely true. As far as I understand, if it doesn't slow down the pace to a noticeable extent and serves to make the movie more entertaining to watch, it's OK to sacrifice some speed for entertainment. And aren't there already movies published here that state that they don't do things the fastest way possible and aren't meant to so that they can be more entertaining, such as the DD2 run(s)?
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
Wait, crap, i've been doing this on hardmode? figures.... i thought the game was hard as hell normally. anyway, well, i suppose you should do what you want to do. i can't remember runs that didn't aim for the fastest time, but if you say so... although judging from this movie, it looks like you're trying to get the fastest time. oh well.
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
Well, the main purpose of this site is speedruns, true, and that's what I'm obviously aiming for, yes. But it's still about the entertainment, and if you keep doing the same thing to every single enemy, no matter how much faster it is than any of the alternatives, it's going to get stale at some point eventually. To further elaborate on the DD2 example, the fastest way to beat it is to use the flying knee attack on every enemy, as it does more damage than anything else. However, when you only use one attack, it's going to get dull, and that's why the author decided to use a larger variety of attacks, even if it's not the fastest way of doing things.
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
Don't get me wrong, i'd much rather see this run have variety rather than the same move over and over. I'm just worried that if you do this, some other punk might come along and beat your time and work using only the strongest attack(s).
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
Meh, even if that happens, I probably won't care much. 15 mins of fame and all that. Besides I don't think many people care that much about this game, and if someone else does it with focus on pure speed, maybe this one could be rated as a different kind of movie.
Former player
Joined: 10/29/2004
Posts: 79
AnotherGamer wrote:
Besides I don't think many people care that much about this game
Don't think of that. I'm a part of dragonball fan, too. I like various fighting way than pure speed. Count on me, please. :) ---- あなたは強者でした
Mr. and Mrs. Rerecord: Why do we fall ? So that we might better learn to pick ourselves up.
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Take variety over super fast ultra mega wow speed. The double dragon movies don't use the very strongest attacks because that would be lame. Take a page out of that book. Plus, if some douche did beat you by a few frames because he wanted to use a cheap combo that isn't as appealing, people may not vote for it.
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
OK, good to know that...but any of you want to address any of the points I mentioned above?
nesrocks
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Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
I think you can charge the kamehameha while fighting to release it as the last hit of a combo or to finish the enemy off, its better than using the L+R attack which wastes the ki bar (kamehameha doesnt waste it). I didnt like the reflective projectiles move, i thought it was slow and puny :P
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
I thought the Double Dragon movies DID use the strongest moves...
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
I thought the Double Dragon movies DID use the strongest moves...
"This is not a perfect timeattack. To make it perfect would require using the "flying knees" technique almost all the time, and it would be somewhat boring to watch. This movie uses different techniques more."
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Well, I was mostly thinking of the Double Dragon 1 run. But the new Double Dragon 2 video abuses the flying knees more, right?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
All speed vs. style arguments aside, I got the Muscle Tower done at last.
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
That was fun, again. Although i still have something to point out. I saw that you didn't use the l + r combo as much as you could. for example, in the yamcha fight, yeah beat him up until he is near dead, and then use the combo, while still having 1 ki bar left. since i played the game, i know the L + R combo does an incredible amount of damage. so it would only be logic to use it as much as possible (i do't think it'll become boring, you can't use it all the time anyways) and to use it to it's full power, not only for the few last blows against an enemy. (like you did against yamcha) and i think it's self explanatory that you shouldn't have any ki bars left at the end of the fight. it seemed like you made better use of the combo in your later fights though. also, i see that you haven't fixed any of the points mentioned earlier on. (like the rocks i mentioned, and jumping over them. you know, the ones that block your path in the jungle) if you're gonna be serious about this run, i suggest you improve your faults, or your movie might not get published. unless this is a test run, and you plan to do the actual run after this one.
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.