I think the fastest place to take damage is off Conga while shooting at him. That combines the damage-taking animation with waiting for Conga to throw the second batch of oranges.
Trying 127.0.0.1...
telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused
telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
Joined: 7/12/2011
Posts: 142
Location: Indianapolis
Disregard the list of jiggies and the route for Mumbo's Mountain. The list of skipped jiggies is changing because we've decided to go to BGS as bee instead of CC.
Today I wrote a Grunty's Lair route for Any%. It's a work in progress and I'll probably be frequently updating this post, but here it is so far:
Warp Pot 1: TTC puzzle room pot (warps to 3)
Warp Pot 2: Tunnel under CC (warps to 6)
Warp Pot 3: First level of 350/450 note door room (warps to 1)
Warp Pot 4: Second level of 350/450 room (warps to 5)
Warp Pot 5: RBB lobby (warps to 4)
Warp Pot 6: CCW lobby (warps to 2)
Warp Pot 7: Furnace Fun (warps to 8)
Warp Pot 8: 810 note door room (warps to 7)
Grunty's Lair Route
GL1
1: Get Jiggy, MM Puzzle Podium, Enter MM
MM
GL2
1: Talon trot to 50 note door, go through
2: TTC Puzzle Podium, go to next area
3: Jump down to doorway to TTC and enter
4: Jump to upper floor from rubble and jump into TTC
TTC
GL3
1: Get TTC witch switch jiggy
2***: CC Puzzle Podium (may be able to jump to it before TTC)
3***: Activate Warp Pot 2
4: Raise platforms and enter CC
CC
GL4
1: Open 180 note door
2: Freezeezy Peak Puzzle Podium by jumping through swamp
3: Take bridge back because health is low (death warp puts you back at puzzle podium)
4: Open 260 note door
5: Destroy spider web covering flight pad
6: Enter Freezeezy Peak
FP
GL5
1: Press flight pad switch and pause buffer to it to get flight
2: Get FP witch switch jiggy and mumbo token
3: Clip out of bounds and beak bomb over to pots to activate them oob (Warp Pot 3 and 4)
4: Trigger the loading zone past the 450 note door
5: Swim to MMM Puzzle Podium room, jump up to it, and open MMM
6: Get Mumbo Token in next alcove [[[potentially reset here]]]
7: Open 350 note door
8: Break open gate to Pumpkin Shack and enter MMM
MMM
GL6
1: Go into Pumpkin Shack
2: Transform back into BK
3: Hit the water switch [[[reset]]]
4: Get mumbo token behind warp pot in TTC lobby area and jump in (Warp Pot 1 to Warp Pot 3)
5: Walk through the cobwebs and open 450 note door
6: Hit water level 2 switch in front of RBB
7: Trigger RBB warp pot, go through it, and destroy web (Warp Pot 5 to Warp Pot 4)
8: 640 note door skip
9: Activate CCW puzzle podium
10: Warp back and get Clanker's Cavern witch switch jiggy (Warp Pot 3 to Warp Pot 1)
11: Open CCW
12: Warp back and do 640 note door skip again (ugh) (Warp Pot 1 to Warp Pot 3)
13: Enter CCW
CCW
GL7
1: Escape as bee (Using Warp Pot 6)
2: Warp back with warp pot (Warp Pot 6 to Warp Pot 2)
3: Enter BGS oob
BGS
GL8
1: Enter GV through top of tree
GV
GL9
1: Enter warp pot that goes to RBB area (Warp Pot 4 to Warp Pot 5)
2: Enter RBB out of bounds
RBB
GL10
1: Maybe warp back with the warp pot by RBB or just fly over wall (Would be Warp Pot 5 to Warp Pot 4 if faster)
2: Tunnel above 640 note door
3: Detransform
4: Open 765 note door
5: Furnace Fun
6: Open 810 note door
7: Door of Grunty Skip
8: Gruntilda
I made this video to show off some of the things you can do as bee that there weren't previously videos of:
Link to video
Joined: 7/12/2011
Posts: 142
Location: Indianapolis
pyromaniac wrote:
Do you think the direction of the jiggy has anything to do with how many oranges conga throws?
Not as far as I can tell. It seems to only be related to the items that pop out at "random" angles - like from the huts, beehives, etc. Boggy's Jiggy in FP works the same way.
Also, I found a new glitch that lets you tilt your model (and hitbox). I'm trying to find other places where this is possible:
Link to video
If anyone wanted to test getting GV Witch Switch jiggy with no witch switch AND no shock pad, that would save some time in the run. It may be possible, but I'm not really having any luck.
It would most likely be a backflip ground pound setup or a glitchy talon trot jump off a seam. I can get neither.
Hm. The any% route has the bee going to Gobi's Valley, correct?
This idea requires entering gobi's valley and exiting as banjo instead of bee (to "activate" monsters). I was thinking maybe using a mum-mum and doing backflip near the statue thing (something like for the cactus empty honeycomb in the speed runs). I'm not sure if that gains height though. Possibly, the other thing to try is the attack (like claw swipe or roll), then jump on to the mum-mum, and do the "invincible" bounce back.
Or if it is possible to get on top of the vase without the jump pad to do a talon trot jump to the statue? (Though seems like a very difficult jump).
Or if there's a ledge thing, use the boots to gain height? (Though I think you skip learning the boots in any%, and I don't see any nearby ledges)
Heya! I am new to the boards, and very interested in the concept of TASing. Though time has not permitted me to personally get into the ROM game play scene, I had an idea so well suited to this thread, that I had to register at once!
In Treasure Trove Cove, has anyone tried entering "CHEAT NOW BANJO WILL BE ABLE TO SEE IT ON NABNUTS TABLE" and dying to the crab on the same frame as, or a frame(s) after, entering the final "E"? Perhaps Banjo will revive in Click Clock Wood if done properly.
Joined: 7/12/2011
Posts: 142
Location: Indianapolis
Dice Power wrote:
Heya! I am new to the boards, and very interested in the concept of TASing. Though time has not permitted me to personally get into the ROM game play scene, I had an idea so well suited to this thread, that I had to register at once!
In Treasure Trove Cove, has anyone tried entering "CHEAT NOW BANJO WILL BE ABLE TO SEE IT ON NABNUTS TABLE" and dying to the crab on the same frame as, or a frame(s) after, entering the final "E"? Perhaps Banjo will revive in Click Clock Wood if done properly.
Welcome to the forum Dice Power :] Interesting idea, but unfortunately Banjo is invincible in the time before the cutscene starts playing. I also tried to get hit on the frame I ground pounded the e but it only ended up flipping the crab.
The only thing interesting I found was that the squirrel family loaded after the rest of the scene by a few frames. It's noticeable. Probably just indicative of how the cutscene works rather than anything significant:
On the subject of cutscene death warps -- usually in Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo has a scripted position following the cutscene. For example, if you die while hitting a witch switch you will be alive standing on the switch following the cutscene. I noticed something similar happened here where even if I ran away from the E during the time before the cutscene, once it was over I was standing back on it and the crab was back in his cage.
Okay, the route is going to CC as Banjo and BGS as Bee now. This was a pretty big oversight. Whoops.
Why is this faster?
- The proposed CC as Bee takes about 120 seconds longer than the proposed BGS as Bee.
- The proposed CC as Banjo takes about 45 seconds longer than the proposed BGS as Banjo
- Opening BGS takes about 30 more seconds overall than "opening CC without CC puzzle jump."
- Opening BGS costs 2 extra jiggies, which equates to about 60 seconds lost.
120 + 30 + 60 - 45 = 165 seconds saved. There are some small considerations to be subtracted from this (such as less notes available in BGS as bee), which got me down to 124 seconds saved by going to CC as banjo.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This leads us to a new list of jiggies. All available jiggies going to these worlds are listed. The ones we will not get are struck out.
- Available: 57
- Needed: 41
- Deleted: 16
EDIT: BGS WITCH SWITCH JIGGY NEEDS ROUTED IN, YOU CAN CLIP IN.
GL:
First Jiggy
GV Witch Switch
MM:
Conga Eggs
Conga Oranges
Chimpy
Juju
Termite Hill
By Talon Trot
Hill 1
Mumbo Skull Eye
Huts
Jinjos
Witch Switch
TTC:
Blubber Gold
Inside Crab
Sandcastle
Lighthouse
X Marks
Fly to Chest
Shock Pad Alcove
Fly to Narrow Path Alcove
Pool Dive
Jinjos
Witch Switch
CC:
Keyhole/On Clanker
Mutant Crabs
Gold Tooth
Wonderwing
In Blowhole/Spinning Blades
8 rings
Up blowhole bolt
Clanker's Tail
Long Pipe Swim
Jinjos
Witch Switch
FP:
Sled on Boggy
Presents
Snowman Pipe
Snowmen Beak Bomb
Christmas Tree
Walrus Race
Boggy Race
Wozza
Snowman Buttons
Jinjos
Witch Switch
MMM:
Inside Well
Tumblar
Pots/Eggs
On top of church
Chimney/Green Ghost
Cellar
Inside Loggo
Rain Gutter
Organ
Jinjos
Witch Switch
The shortest jiggy that got removed is Loggo, timed at about 29.5 seconds. The longest jiggies to remain include MM witch switch, GV witch switch, and FP witch switch, all estimated to be below 27 seconds all things considered.
--------------------------------------------------------
A note is valued at 5-6 seconds. A mumbo token is valued at 3-4 seconds. Now that jiggies have been finalized, notes and mumbo tokens can be measured more accurately as deviations from the shortest path. It has been determined that everything in MM will be collected except the two honeycombs. No single note in MM takes more than 5 seconds, and no single Mumbo Token takes more than 3 seconds. (A lot of the 5 seconds notes occur in RBB by having to cross loading zones.)
The next goal is to finalize notes and mumbo tokens, and then following that individual level routes will be theorized. MM has been fully routed for some time, as the stuff to be collected hasn't been changed. MM Route!
If we can glitch past ALL the note doors and the doors to the first two worlds and do the wrong warp of the warp pots, we can beat the game without collecting ANY Jiggies at all.
Seems to be exclusive to Mumbo's Mountain. If you die, then when you respawn at the start pad, Bottles has text saying that the notes you collect (regardless of how many you collect) count as saved and you have to skip and then jump (you can't move while he's talking). Just a heads up, though probably already found. Probably still faster than speedrun route.
Also, in TTC, is it faster to collect the blubber jiggy during the blubber cutscene, or through flying as done in the previous TAS?
So I'm guessing the Banjo CC route is planned out. I was wondering if it involved jumping from the pipe thing above the mutie-snippets (or vice versa) to where the honeycomb grating is. Idea I have:
-Same beginning, go straight to mutie-snippets first (collecting underwater pipe notes)
-Then gloop and follow speed run until tooth.
-Poop eggs to tooth (if cycle is correct), get bolt jiggy
-get across clanker, get jiggy near mutie-snippets,
-traverse pipe, do the jump thing I mentioned, hope the cycle completes to get in blowhole (or get tooth jiggy, exit)
-Get blade jiggy.
-Get notes on sides of clanker underwater, drown deathwarp.
The last part wastes time, so I'm not sure how to work out a deathwarp, and didn't really count up notes.
Also, anyone try getting on top of clanker from "converging" part of the tail? IDK if that would help with anything.
Possible route incorporation for CC? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieYgEE5_tnU
Also, in TTC, is it faster to collect the blubber jiggy during the blubber cutscene, or through flying as done in the previous TAS?
Unsure. We'll test it when we get there.
No other levels have been fully routed yet. There are still some notes and mumbo tokens that may get cut. It is determined that no matter what is cut, MM is still all notes, jiggies, and mumbo tokens.
Regarding CC: the 2 notes in the alcoves may be cut. We're aware of the jumps from the top. You can jump further than the jump you linked with a talon trot slide rejump as shown in the CC Puzzle jump attempt a few pages back.
My current idea revolved around entering the tooth, grabbing the jiggy and the 8 notes, and then re-exiting the tooth, then later entering and leaving the left gill to get the 5 notes. The 2 notes off on the right can be grabbed while flying I'm pretty sure, but they need timed. I wanted to die by the gold feathers jiggy, since dying by mutant crabs is I think impossible.
Much more needs routed before we start TTC. What to get and not get has largely been calculated by "amount of deviation from the nearest object we need to get", as opposed to actually routing the level.
Ah cool, so it's possible to exit the tooth with a backflip/beak buster?
So I'm guessing no learning wonderwing move for any%?
Oh I see, the planning sounds pretty difficult. Keep up the good work.
There was some recent confusion in the SDA thread:
https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/banjokazooie_all_categories_102.html
Blank63 found some PAL clips and was able to do the same clips on NTSC Mupen. However, these clips have only been found to work on Mupen and NOT on Project 64 OR console. So now we know that mupen collision isn't 100% accurate for this game. Future new clipping tricks will be confirmed in Project 64. (Most everything Cronikeys tested has been confirmed in Project 64.)
1: We're not doing the TAS on PAL
2: Clips not known to be possible on console will not be used in the TAS. We're still relatively safe to assume that Project 64 is a pretty reliable representation of the game at this point.
I found the random trajectory value in MHS. I'm going to describe it rather than posting a value, because everyone has different mupen builds.
We will treat it as an unsigned long. The 4 individual byte components might mean different things.
Upon crossing a loading zone it always refreshes to 0 (unsigned long).
Each hut ground pounded in Mumbo's Mountain sets it to a specific value regardless of what has happened previously.
When you break the hut closest to ground pound bottles in Mumbo's Mountain it becomes 1096810496. Counter-Clockwise from that hut, the other 5 huts are 1134985216, 1124139008, 1125318656, 1129906176, 1133412352.
Killing enemies (termites, beehives, other stuff) sets it to somewhat random looking values. This is probably due to knockback angles, random explosions, etc. It also seems to have something to do with banjo's approach angle. There are a lot of factors.
This means that we should be able to kill a termite in Mumbo's Mountain to stack the Conga jiggies. I will edit my MM route post soon to reflect this.
At worst this means we can kill the enemy, load a savestate, hack in the trajectory values and see where the jiggy goes for faster testing. At best maybe someone can figure out how the game actually interprets this value. :P
This may only be useful for the Conga jiggies and the Boggy sled jiggy. We will be sure to look for anything else that uses this value.
On the subject of cutscene death warps -- usually in Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo has a scripted position following the cutscene. For example, if you die while hitting a witch switch you will be alive standing on the switch following the cutscene. I noticed something similar happened here where even if I ran away from the E during the time before the cutscene, once it was over I was standing back on it and the crab was back in his cage.
