Posted: 6/20/2013 7:26 PM
Post subject: Official support of dev builds and patches
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feos
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NES TAS of 2011
It was pointed out on IRC that we need to clarify the rule about emulator versions officially supported (accepted) at TASVideos. For stable emulators it is clear, builds from side hostings done from random source code revisions are just unreliable, the movies done on them can desync on official releases, etc. But there are emulators that emulate some messy platforms already (Hourglass, Dolphin, openMSX), their developers may use to have dev builds repo with latest tweaks added, but unstable overall. In some cases, even the only chance to get a game working right is to use an interim or a patched build. And we are only able to publish Dolphin submissions by applying some unofficial hacks here and there. So not only having hacks and patches support is critical, but it is how things already are with these platforms. Some say we still must stick to official releases only to allow viewers to watch movies. Again, true only for movies that are relatively easy to set up in the first place. Custom users will unlikely be able to set up Dolphin to playback or sync straight away. The same goes about TASers: they have to be skilled enough just to handle Dolphin, and if they succeed and submit, we must respect such effort. Sure, if that question raised some year ago, the current situation might be better. But for now, I personally was suggesting TASVideos support for dev builds that can be obtained from an official emulator repo directly. Guys in IRC suggested to fork dolphin to host TASABLE version separately from the official mess, still including every fix the devs apply, and making sure they are still tasable. Please provide ideas about the best way all that can be handled, or I reject Resident Evil 4 for using 3.5679479938907 the current rules are too ambiguous by saying dev builds aren't allowed and still accepting all dev build submissions of modern platforms.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 6/20/2013 8:21 PM
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creaothceann
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Does the platform have a "perfect compatibility" emulator (e.g. bsnes)? If yes, use that. If not, and there's one or several emulators that can run the game, use the most compatible emulator and the least invasive fixes (settings, patches etc). Preferably host this software package on the site (even, or rather especially, if it's game-specific).
Posted: 6/20/2013 10:07 PM
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Spikestuff
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Doesn't Dolphin do this?
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Posted: 6/20/2013 11:10 PM
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RachelB
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Using "stable" releases of dolphin isn't going to work at all as is. 3.5 was released 2 years and 900+ commits after 3.0, and we are now almost 1500 commits past 3.5 in the last 7 months, and still quite a ways away from 4.0. Dolphin is under fairly heavy development, and releases just are not done anywhere near often enough. Finding builds for older dev builds isn't really a problem in this case either. Builds for basically every single revision ever can be found at http://dl.dolphin-emu.org/oldbuilds/ or http://dolphin-emu.org/download/ . Every single commit, including to branches is built automatically, and available at http://dolphin-emu.org/download/dev/[hash]. In recent revisions, the hash is saved to the movie file. For older ones, it's right in the about menu. Of course we could always fork it and do releases separately. But who would be willing to do that? You suggested rog on irc, but he actually did move to an uninhabited island, never to return, months ago. I could do it, but i don't really think it's a big deal as is. There's not many people tasing dolphin, and in most cases (of course there's two exceptions on the workbench right now...) builds are easily available at http://dolphin-emu.org, and the source is just as easy to find. Obviously it's a still a headache that doesn't exist for any other emulator, but I'm not sure what can realistically be done about it that wouldn't be just as much if not more of a headache. I'm not really interested in maintaining a fork to be released every few weeks that will mostly go unused, and i doubt anyone else is either.
Posted: 6/21/2013 1:47 PM
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AnS
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If a run only syncs with an interim revision and doesn't sync with any official version then it's similar to not releasing input file at all (and only providing an encode), because who will be able to replay the movie ~5 years after? I remember once it was difficult to replay FODA's NES Battletoads because it used very old version of FCEU and didn't sync with any later versions. Fortunately it wasn't completely obscure revision of the emulator. If it was, then noone would be able to re-encode it in HD or use the movie file for comparison/etc, because the source code is not available anywhere now.
RachelB wrote:
3.5 was released 2 years and 900+ commits after 3.0, and we are now almost 1500 commits past 3.5 in the last 7 months, and still quite a ways away from 4.0.
Then why won't you release 3.7 of something? What's so cool with round numbers?
RachelB wrote:
Builds for basically every single revision ever can be found at http://dl.dolphin-emu.org/oldbuilds/ or http://dolphin-emu.org/download/ . Every single commit, including to branches is built automatically, and available at http://dolphin-emu.org/download/dev/[hash].
But can you guarantee the archive will be available, say, in 5-10 years? Stable versions are usually spread around the Internet, so it's not a problem.
Posted: 6/21/2013 2:38 PM
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feos
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I guess the problem is that there are no TASers among main Dolphin developers. So it is not a tasvideos emulator, but just the one that we are able to use occasionally. So we can't expect TOO MUCH from it. Some rules must be softened, but the most sane decision is to be developed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 6/21/2013 5:27 PM
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creaothceann
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AnS wrote:
But can you guarantee the archive will be available, say, in 5-10 years?
Archive emulator along with movie file.
Posted: 6/21/2013 5:33 PM
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feos
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NES TAS of 2011
creaothceann wrote:
AnS wrote:
But can you guarantee the archive will be available, say, in 5-10 years?
Archive emulator along with movie file.
I like that idea as a part of publishing process for SPECIAL cases. We need a repo for that, like tastools.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 6/22/2013 1:33 AM
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RachelB
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But can you guarantee the archive will be available, say, in 5-10 years? Stable versions are usually spread around the Internet, so it's not a problem.
It is mirrored here, and here, so I'd say there's a good chance. If not though, the git repo should be available forever, so we can always recompile it (has to be done to reencode anyway).
Then why won't you release 3.7 of something? What's so cool with round numbers?
It's not really up to me, and i don't see a big enough need to try to push for more frequent releases.
Posted: 6/22/2013 5:02 PM
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Warepire
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I vote yes but with a small reservation that the .patch or source code has to be linked to so that it can be verified that the movie hasn't been cheated though modifying parts of the emulator for the purpose of gaining a faster time.
Posted: 6/22/2013 5:17 PM
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Spikestuff
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can we get an update on famtasa (all the broken elements, but with avi working!) But yea for Dolphin it's understandable, mupen64, bizhawk and pcsx-rr (dun dun dun) so yes
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Posted: 6/22/2013 5:21 PM
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natt
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Famtasia is not open source, so any updating is limited to executable hacking, which is how we got to where we are now.