So I suppose you heard about my crazy optimzing attempts on NES (@ FCEUX using AnS' great TASEditor). For 2 reasons I already had an idea on making a "cheat sheet"(concise set of notes used for quick reference) about techniques and strategies that could be implemented in to various games on different platforms.
However, I think it should be interactive in a way that you can filter what values you want to know about. For example only NES techniques from this "database" (if this could be supported) or a specific category like "Input techniques".
Let me show you an example for just "Input techniques" page if you would read the compact view:
Input related techniques
Pre-input processing: try to start your input before the last non-lag frame (works in NES Rygar)
CPU clock / PPU clock / Memory / RNG change influencing: try to press various buttons at any non-lag frames on different controllers (works in NES Kirby, NES Battletoads...)
Spotting special frames: try to press input at frames when the game either doesn't suspects an input like the very first frame of a level or different buttons in the menu (works in NES Battletoads)
Different patterns: try to test your patterns with different timings to reduce lag frames, change RNG or get different (sub)pixel positions (works in NES Kirby)
Delaying input: try to delay "crucial" actions to get different results that could remove lag frames, abuse a frame perfect glitch or helps you to change the RNG without losing time (works in NES Kirby)
Being slower is faster: try to lengthen various inputs that could leads to a faster time (works in NES Excite bike)
Okay, I must admit this wasn't the best example as I can't really think an idea thoroughly in short time and I could write a lot more, but I would really like to get feedback about would you be interested in, who could contribute for it, and how should it be made (I vote for generating content like using filter on movies insted making multiple wiki pages).
edit: of course my goal is to make a reference page that when I want to make a TAS in the future, I check the categories I want to optimize so I don't need to track every little things I already tried to test and keeping multiple movies for this solely reason. I think this should be a very good resource for every TASers (even super godlikes through first timers) for both learning and making TASes as highly optimized as possible.
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I would like that info base to be connected to the Guide I made:
http://tasvideos.org/TasingGuide.html
And especially with this page:
http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/CommonTricks.html
Though, the latter speaks mostly about the logics of what you do to games, while you seem to mean different input applications, like what kinds of input should be tested.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I would like that info base to be connected to the Guide I made:
http://tasvideos.org/TasingGuide.html
And especially with this page:
http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/CommonTricks.html
Though, the latter speaks mostly about the logics of what you do to games, while you seem to mean different input applications, like what kinds of input should be tested.
It was just an example of a category. As the topic implies, I'm talking about all techniques on all games that could be used to further abuse games and dynamically changing it to newbie friendly (bigger details and examples) or TASer friendly (check listing what you have done and use link generation to save your project, for example "build generators" for various MMORPGs) format/view. I miss a lot of tricks I abuse nearly in every game in these pages (even only from this list I could spot 3 things that common page doesn't includes).
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Pre-input processing: try to start your input before the last non-lag frame (works in NES Rygar)
Huh, I don't understand this. By default, lag frames are those frames where the game doesn't poll input, so you can't change anything by pressing buttons on these frames. Could you show more details of this Rygar example?
MESHUGGAH wrote:
try to press various buttons at any non-lag frames on different controllers
This is the most generic technique, and it works in any game. :D
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Okay, I must admit this wasn't the best example as I can't really think an idea thoroughly in short time and I could write a lot more, but I would really like to get feedback about would you be interested in, who could contribute for it, and how should it be made (I vote for generating content like using filter on movies insted making multiple wiki pages).
For now, I think you should just make your own page at TASVideos and collect everything you come up here. So far your idea doesn't seem to be very clear, so it's too early to think about the format, you need to refine the idea and write more examples and details.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
edit: of course my goal is to make a reference page that when I want to make a TAS in the future, I check the categories I want to optimize so I don't need to track every little things I already tried to test and keeping multiple movies for this solely reason. I think this should be a very good resource for every TASers (even super godlikes through first timers) for both learning and making TASes as highly optimized as possible.
Yes, it would be useful to collect all this stuff in one place. Usually people come up with those mini-tricks naturally, by struggling with Input when trying to squeeze more frames from an already very optimized movie.
Could you show more details of this Rygar example?
When a level/scene changes, the game flags frames as lag frames and loads the next level/scene. If you press an input before this load, you can be 1 frame faster.
As my uploaded WIP shows, I can jump earlier by pressing an input before the lag frames. The last non-lag frame before the 1st frame of a level. This trick could work on games where you need to press actions 2 frames long or where game logic isn't fully loaded once the game started.
AnS wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
try to press various buttons at any non-lag frames on different controllers
This is the most generic technique, and it works in any game. :D
I don't think that many people know that you can change the PPU clock by doing this. Prove me wrong.
AnS wrote:
Yes, it would be useful to collect all this stuff in one place. Usually people come up with those mini-tricks naturally, by struggling with Input when trying to squeeze more frames from an already very optimized movie.
Sorry if I'm not clear enough, I try to express it as much as I can. So what I want is to make a database with techniques and tricks detailed with examples in one place.
- this way newcomers can see what you need to observe and how to adapt it into various games
- using these informations to make a check list (you filter what techniques you want to use for a game and remove things you already optimized and generate a link or a code that inserting back will continue on what you need to do in order to impove a movie) about what you want to optimize. It's might be only me, but I used to write super lengthy txt files and keep 30 movies to make sure comparing every possible routes.
Just imagine the CommonTricks page organized in to various categories (per platforms, per strategies) with explanation and examples. This should (at least me) help others to both learn and make higher (if possible) quality movies.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Could you show more details of this Rygar example?
When a level/scene changes, the game flags frames as lag frames and loads the next level/scene. If you press an input before this load, you can be 1 frame faster.
As my uploaded WIP shows, I can jump earlier by pressing an input before the lag frames. The last non-lag frame before the 1st frame of a level. This trick could work on games where you need to press actions 2 frames long or where game logic isn't fully loaded once the game started.
Oh, now it makes sense, I thought you meant something different.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
I don't think that many people know that you can change the PPU clock by doing this. Prove me wrong.
Now I don't understand what do you mean by "changing PPU clock".
MESHUGGAH wrote:
So what I want is to make a database with techniques and tricks detailed with examples in one place.
So yes, this is good idea, but before making a database you'd better collect as much data as possible (in text/html form), because currently your data is too vague, and it's not enough for a database.
Thanks for the answers feos and AnS. Here's just a demonstration about what I want to achieve: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArK9PGq1pEbUdERRZlowX2FqM2RlNi10azdVSnlnOFE
A little intro: This is a reference sheet which lists specific techniques that were already proved to be faster for specific games. The purpose of this sheet is to help TASers maintaining their efforts made on a specific game and what else they could throw in.
For example, you save the sheet and rename it for your TAS project. When you observed your possibilities, you check what techniques could work and just simply change the color of the row if you couldn't use it or write information for yourself.
Since there's already a bunch of useful pages for this reason (Wiki: TasingGuide), I want to generalize the techniques and provide a link from TASVideos Wiki pages for the appropriate techniques (however I'm stuck at making links that jumps to the specific headers within a Wiki page)
I will rewrite some technique names and information texts... So... what do you think?
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
