I haven't watched any of the WIPs, but I'm curious to see what this game is like when TASed. I played it ages ago on a borrowed Game Gear and seemed to recall it being rather interesting, but the final levels were beyond my skills. So I look forward to seeing this on the Workbench! Good luck. :)
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Thanks Derakon ! Hope you will like it ! ;)
Before beginning the ennemy's base, i wanted to be sure that my rooms order was the best. But how to be sure that this is the best ?
Yeah ... like some mathematical problems, i have to study all possibilities !
Not all because i think this is endless, but i study all fifteen first rooms possibilities (boss rooms included) !!
And it was not useless !
do = down ; ri = right ; le = left ; up = up ! Pi = Pink Boss ; Gr = Green Boss ; Bl = Blue Boss ; Ye = Yellow Boss ;
The U room is the dark shinobi's room. This is the last room of the game.
I have found that there is not just one way to complete the Enemy's base in only fifteen rooms, there are four ways !!
Other ways need probably at least two more rooms, so i think we can put them aside.
But it is very hard to know what is the best between the four ways i have found out.
Yeah ... I probably must have to do the four ways, then we will be able to compare and to choose the best one !! ;)
Here is the beginning of the enemy's base with the first way :
Step 7 : Beginning of the enemy's base - First way
The shinobi enter the T room at frame 49 983
If you have advices or suggestions, don't hesitate
I have done some discoveries by doing this second way
The shinobi enter the T room at frame 49 799, so this is 184 better from the first way, but here is some interesting points :
- I have discovered that there is a time when the shinobi can go through the boss against the blue boss !
The blue boss was beaten in 1045 frames. In the first way, it was beaten in 1309 frames. So this is 264 frames better, a huge improvement !
- The M room was done in 611 frames in the second way. It was done in 624 frames in the first way. It is 13 frames better. The method is to jump instead of doing down and jump.
- The L room has changed. It was done in 656 frames in the first way, but it is done in 748 frames in the second way. This is 92 frames fewer. I don't know why the room has changed.
Here is the file :
Step 7 : Beginning of the enemy's base - Second way
I will have to start again all my work because of the blue boss discovery !! This TAS will take a long time !
Okay, I drew a graph of the final base based on that tree in previous post...
1) You can't go from S to T or from R to T before at least two color bosses are defeated?
2) Is it possible to go back from boss room after defeating boss (e.g. G->Green Boss->G could be useful if so!)?
3) Or are rooms G and F designed so that one can't make (in sane time) from lower exit to upper exit (or vice versa)?
4) If you take two exits that take to the same room (say, D->F and P->F), do both dump you on the same position in room F or not?
Oh, and in case I understood correctly, there are 8 paths that are 16 rooms:
A->B->C->D->F->{Ye->M,Bl->L}->P->R->G->{Gr->O,Pi->N}->Q->S->T->U.
A->B->C->E->G->{Gr->O,Pi->N}->Q->S->F->{Ye->M,Bl->L}->P->R->T->U
I think it is possible to simplify the routefinding using Vitterbi algorithm:
The 15-room routes.
1) entrance of A -> entrance of F.
2) entrance of F -> entrance of P, defeating two bosses. Discard slower.
3) entrance of P -> entrance of T.
4) entrance of A -> entrance of G.
5) entrance of G -> entrance of Q, defeating two bosses, Discard slower.
6) entrance of Q -> entrance of T. Discard slower vs. #3.
The 16-room routes:
1) <#1 from 15-room>
2) entrance of F -> entrance of P, defeating one boss, discard slower.
3) entrance of P -> entrance of G
4) entrance of G-> entrance of Q, defeating one boss, discard slower.
5) entrance of Q -> entrance of T.
6) <#4 from 15-room>
7) entrance of G -> entrance of Q, using faster route from step 2)
8) entrance of Q-> entrance of F
9) entrance of F -> entrance of P, using faster route from step 4)
10) entrance of P -> entrance of T. Discard slower vs. #5.
Hi Ilari. I will try to correctly answers your questions :)
1) You can't go from S to T or from R to T before at least two color bosses are defeated?
Yes, you are right, it seems that if there is not two bosses defeated, one door is always closed :
2) Is it possible to go back from boss room after defeating boss (e.g. G->Green Boss->G could be useful if so!)?
I think it is impossible. When you have defeated a boss, the game automaticaly brings you to the next room. Using a red ninjutsu in a room brings you to the beginning of the room. Using a red ninjutsu in a boss room do ... nothing !
3) Or are rooms G and F designed so that one can't make (in sane time) from lower exit to upper exit (or vice versa)?
I am not sure to understand your question. Sometimes you can choose the door you wanted to take. And sometimes a door is closed. The graph show you when you can choose and when you can't.
4) If you take two exits that take to the same room (say, D->F and P->F), do both dump you on the same position in room F or not?
Yes, they always dump you to the door in the beginning of the room.
Oh, and in case I understood correctly, there are 8 paths that are 16 rooms:
A->B->C->D->F->{Ye->M,Bl->L}->P->R->G->{Gr->O,Pi->N}->Q->S->T->U.
A->B->C->E->G->{Gr->O,Pi->N}->Q->S->F->{Ye->M,Bl->L}->P->R->T->U
I show eight different paths but there are just four paths that leed to the last room (the U room) in only fifteen rooms, other paths need more of that, for example, if you take this path :
A - B - C - D - F - Bl - L - P - R - G - Pi - N - Q - G - Gr - ...
You have to do more rooms to find the last one, it is not finished.
I think it is possible to simplify the routefinding using Vitterbi algorithm:
The 15-room routes.
1) entrance of A -> entrance of F.
2) entrance of F -> entrance of P, defeating two bosses. Discard slower.
3) entrance of P -> entrance of T.
4) entrance of A -> entrance of G.
5) entrance of G -> entrance of Q, defeating two bosses, Discard slower.
6) entrance of Q -> entrance of T. Discard slower vs. #3.
The 16-room routes:
1) <1>
2) entrance of F -> entrance of P, defeating one boss, discard slower.
3) entrance of P -> entrance of G
4) entrance of G-> entrance of Q, defeating one boss, discard slower.
5) entrance of Q -> entrance of T.
6) <4>
7) entrance of G -> entrance of Q, using faster route from step 2)
8) entrance of Q-> entrance of F
9) entrance of F -> entrance of P, using faster route from step 4)
10) entrance of P -> entrance of T. Discard slower vs. #5.
I am not sure to understand what you mean. Indeed i can slit up the enemy's base in different sequences, that's a good idea.
Hi Ilari. I will try to correctly answers your questions :)
quote]3) Or are rooms G and F designed so that one can't make (in sane time) from lower exit to upper exit (or vice versa)?
I am not sure to understand your question. Sometimes you can choose the door you wanted to take. And sometimes a door is closed. The graph show you when you can choose and when you can't. [/quote]
Well, it doesn't matter anyway.
Zeyn0 wrote:
I show eight different paths but there are just four paths that leed to the last room (the U room) in only fifteen rooms, other paths need more of that,
Yes, there are just four that do so in 15 rooms, but I was thinking that if there are some really slow rooms/bosses, an extra room could still be better...
When the 15-room path going through E is probed, one could probably calculate an approximation if any 16-room path would be even close (probably not, especially as I am not seeing anything really horrible in any avoidable room, B and C yes, but those can't be avoided).
Also, spikes (esp. in room B) are instakill, right?
Also, doesn't all exits dumping you at start of the room cut down the number of 15-room paths to probe in half (the order one does bosses in shouldn't matter then)?
3) Or are rooms G and F designed so that one can't make (in sane time) from lower exit to upper exit (or vice versa)?
I think i understand your question now, but it is impossible to go back to a previous room, so you can't go to the lower exit, go back, then take the upper exit.
Yes, there are just four that do so in 15 rooms, but I was thinking that if there are some really slow rooms/bosses, an extra room could still be better...
We have to do at least two more rooms (R and T or S and T) if we choose another path, that's why i put them aside
Also, spikes (esp. in room B) are instakill, right?
Also, doesn't all exits dumping you at start of the room cut down the number of 15-room paths to probe in half (the order one does bosses in shouldn't matter then)?
You want to die to save time ? How could it works here ?
I want to do a no damage tool-assisted speedrun anyway, so i can't die.
Yes, there are just four that do so in 15 rooms, but I was thinking that if there are some really slow rooms/bosses, an extra room could still be better...
We have to do at least two more rooms (R and T or S and T) if we choose another path, that's why i put them aside
No, there are routes with just one extra room (unless some doors are mysteriously closed), but it is unlikely that those are faster than either of 15-room routes.
Zeyn0 wrote:
Also, spikes (esp. in room B) are instakill, right?
You want to die to save time ? How could it works here ?
I was thinking that in case those spikes just did damage, one could save time there by taking damage...
But if those spikes kill you, dying there is unlikely to save any time.
No, there are routes with just one extra room (unless some doors are mysteriously closed), but it is unlikely that those are faster than either of 15-room routes.
Ok, if i understand correctly, you think that there could be paths faster than the four i have noticed, if we can open the closed doors.
I like this idea, i haven't think about this possibility before, but i have no idea how to open these doors ! I don't know if this is possible or not !
As i have said in a previous post, i have to change the run before the enemy's base because i have discovered a new technique to beat the blue boss faster.
I also try to optimise the first part, the building, to be sure this part was good. And i have made some new discoveries :
- The high jump at frame ~650 was a mistake! It loose frames
- The bounce at frame ~3110 loose frames
- The bounce at frame ~3300 loose frames
- The last jump in the boss room at frame ~5200 loose frames
- Some frames can be saved in Boss Rooms by stopping to do actions the fastest possible, of course we have to place the shinobi in the good area
In the previous file :
Beginning : Start button at frame 440
Ending : Start button at frame 6212 (score equal to zero)
In the new one :
Beginning : Start button at frame 440
Ending : Start button at frame 6144 (score equal to zero)
This is 68 frames faster.
If someone break the record, please tell me.
Here is the file : Part one - Building
This part seems good, i see nothing to optimise, only the boss room
In the previous file :
Beginning : Start button at frame 6501
Ending : Start button at frame 13089 (score equal to zero)
Total : 6588 frames
In the new one :
Beginning : Start button at frame 6433
Ending : Start button at frame 12669 (score equal to zero)
Total : 6236 frames
This is 352 frames faster.
If someone break the record, please tell me.
Here is the file : Part two - Canyon
This part seems good too, i have only done a little optimisation in the boss room.
In the previous file :
Beginning : Start button at frame 13348
Ending : Start button at frame 21529 (score equal to zero)
Total : 8181 frames
In the new one :
Beginning : Start button at frame 12928
Ending : Start button at frame 21099 (score equal to zero)
Total : 8171 frames
This is 10 frames faster.
If someone break the record, please tell meIf you have advices or suggestions, please tell
Here is the file : Part three - Castle
I just have done little modifications in the Factory's level to resynchronize the file. The file desynchronize at room A of the enemy's base, so my next step is to redo this room.
In the previous file :
Beginning : Start button at frame 21821
Ending : Start button at frame 31085
In the new one :
Beginning : Start button at frame 21391
Ending : Start button at frame 30639
This is 16 frames faster.
Here is the file : Part four - Factory and return to the building
I can't continue the TAS these days, i will probably continue it on october, but if someone wants to help me and to work on it with me, it would be a pleasure !
Sorry I can't help you -- I discovered long ago I don't have the persistence to make TASes. But I wanted to wish you well. I look forward to when this TAS is completed! :)
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Hi, i am back
Today, I can show you rooms A and B, i have done exactly the same "time" for the A room (725 frames) and for the B room :
In the previous file :
The shinobi enter the B door at frame 36484
The shinobi enter the C door at frame 37992
In the new file :
The shinobi enter the B door at frame 36038
The shinobi enter the C door at frame 37536
This is 10 frames faster (i don't exactly know how i have done to make it faster!)
Here is the file : Part Five - Rooms A and B done
Next step : Rooms C, D and F before the Blue Boss (Way one of the four ways)
Thanks for Ilari, Angerfist and Derakon for their posts. It helps me to continue this TAS
Next step : Rooms C, D and F before the Blue Boss (Way one of the four ways)
As far as I can see, unless there are some very strange mechanics involved, the order you do bosses (Blue/Yellow or Pink/Green) on 15-room routes doesn't matter, since you are going to do the same rooms anyway.
And even if there is strange mechanics that would make the routes non-equivalent, presumably one can pick the faster run at start of room P or Q after both bosses are destroyed.
Hi Ilari, thanks for posting
Way 1 and 2 have the same rooms, so yeah, maybe we can consider them as equivalent
(Rooms : A;B;C;D;F;L;M;P;R;T;U and Blue and Yellow bosses)
Way 3 and 4 have the same rooms too
(Rooms : A;B;C;E;G;N;O;Q;S;T;U and Pink and Green Bosses)
But i have to do at least two ways (way 1 and 3 for example), because they don't have the same rooms and the same bosses, so they are not equivalent at all
Hello there !
I have not been writing to you since a long time. I would like to finish my work on this TAS, i hope this is not to late to do it.
I have done the blue and yellow boss recently.
Here is the link : Boss Room - First two boss
Next work : Pink and Green boss, and then the final red boss.
Joined: 9/2/2008
Posts: 289
Location: United Kingdom
I was playing this game at European Speedrunners Assembly 2016 and found a walljump bug, tested it a bit further with TAS tools and found that you can get life expansion at canyon without Pink's ceiling crawl/Blue's tornado. You do need Yellow's water walk or Blue's tornado to enter the deep cave.
tl:dr
for 100% you only need to visit canyon once thanks to this trick.
https://twitter.com/Greenalink/status/830384951761784832
do = down ; ri = right ; le = left ; up = up ! Pi = Pink Boss ; Gr = Green Boss ; Bl = Blue Boss ; Ye = Yellow Boss ;
The U room is the dark shinobi's room. This is the last room of the game.
I have found that there is not just one way to complete the Enemy's base in only fifteen rooms, there are four ways !!
Other ways need probably at least two more rooms, so i think we can put them aside.
But it is very hard to know what is the best between the four ways i have found out.
Yeah ... I probably must have to do the four ways, then we will be able to compare and to choose the best one !! ;)
