Post by Rising_Tempest

Posted: 1/13/2014 7:46 AM

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Inzult

Active player (422)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

Hi Jack :) Taking a level costs ~3 seconds, cancelling ~0.5 seconds. Pbag drops also cost ~0.5s, and to generalize, you can usually deal around 5 hits to a boss without getting ejected or knocking the boss back every 20ish frames. But also, you can only deal 6 or so hits to enemies without slowing down and a lot of the enemies start taking 8 at attack 3 inside palace 3. So to get to magic 5 in time for palace 4, there will be some rooms in p3 where we need to slow down a little at attack 3 and a lot at attack 2. So I think doing p1 first is the way to go here, even with the 1 extra level cancel. I think I can save at least 30 frames in p3 with attack 3 vs attack 2 to cover that, and I think helmethead and rebonak at attack 3 will be better than them at attack 2 and a fast horsehead. Obviously there are a lot of little things that complicate the route but overall I think it's a good cake and eat it too sort of leveling plan. You're right though in your points about gooma and beyond. I will retest getting the flute first vs doing gooma first when I get there though to make sure the route makes sense. I don't even really remember why doing gooma first was faster in the old movie. Either way, though, the crystal exp is going to happen. Either we up&a at the flute or we don't up&a at all, so you can count that exp in the route. Sword 4 after carock seems like a no-brainer to me, but further sword upgrades after gooma I'm not so sure. I'll math that out later on. In my mind at that point it's either take sword levels or don't, so it's not as critical to the overall route. Maybe if I can manipulate a lot of magos I can get attack 5 in time for gooma, and that makes sense to try. Taking magic 6 makes sense maybe if it can replace a death or a red jar drop in the GP like you mentioned needed to be done, but the basic plan I had for that is to just either manipulate the jar right before the crumbling bridge room, or take a lava swim, whichever's faster. Anyway, a tentative plan is to end up with 5-5-1 or so, just sort of depending on a few things around palace 5 and beyond. I'm pretty happy with the plan through palace 4 that I have now though so I'm going to go ahead with that.

Posted: 1/18/2014 4:35 AM

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Rising_Tempest

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Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
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Inzult wrote:

Hi Jack :) You're right though in your points about gooma and beyond. I will retest getting the flute first vs doing gooma first when I get there though to make sure the route makes sense. I don't even really remember why doing gooma first was faster in the old movie. Either way, though, the crystal exp is going to happen. Either we up&a at the flute or we don't up&a at all, so you can count that exp in the route.

It was faster because it's two rooms of backtracking to kill Gooma first to get to the elevator that (eventually) leads to the flute, instead of 8 rooms of backtracking to get to the boss after getting the flute. I think it saved nearly 40 seconds or something crazy like that. Magic 6 won't help in the GP since Thunder doesn't go down in cost until level 7. so yeah, 4-5-1 or 5-5-1 with Mago manipulation is probably as good as is worth getting. So I guess it's really just a matter of sorting out the optimal way to be 3-5-1 after the first three palaces?

Posted: 1/18/2014 8:04 PM

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Inzult

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Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

Rising Tempest wrote:

So I guess it's really just a matter of sorting out the optimal way to be 3-5-1 after the first three palaces?

Exactly, yeah, the leveling in the first half is surprisingly complex. I'm not sure I'll get it right, but what I have on paper is already way better than the published tas, so that's something. The sort of problem is that being able to ignore the crystal hp/mp refills makes sword levels more useful the earlier you get them again. But the first level where we could use a crystal to exp dump sword levels into magic levels is, annoyingly, the same level you need the magic levels for.

Posted: 1/27/2014 4:03 PM

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TASeditor

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Joined: 7/9/2010
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Inzult wrote:

and it might be possible to get the healer lady to spawn sooner than what I do in the published run, and it might be possible to get the downstab teacher guy to spawn a bit sooner too

Haven't worked on this for some time... The healer spawns a frame earlier, but a frame is somehow lost when going inside the house. The luck manipulation on the overworld before Temple 2 is really though, do you have any tipps for me. The enemies always get me.

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Posted: 1/28/2014 12:53 AM

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Inzult

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Yeah the swamp is the worst part of the whole run to actually do, hands down. So, iirc, the encounter spawns do 4 "random" steps and then 12 steps based on where they are on screen, depending on where you are in the global timer. The priority goes like this: 1) If they are one step above or below you, no matter how far away to the left or right they are, when it's their turn to take a step, they will step towards you in the x plane. 2) Or if they are one step left or right of you, no matter how far away above or below you they are, when it's their turn to take a step, they will step towards you in the y plane. 3) Else if they are more than one step away in both directions, they will take a random step. Fairies always take random steps. A consequence of this is if you can herd all spawns one step above or below you, you will be able to take many steps left or right, and they will never move toward you (until random time) Of course, every spawn starts in line with Link, and Link walks at half speed on the swamp, so you have to lean on random steps to a certain degree, which is based on your position and what frame it is. To get a different result on what spawns based on the timer you'll need to wait frame(s) on a path or inside the previous town room. My method was always to just sort of try stuff until something worked, then try to find ways to shave time off that.

Posted: 2/3/2014 8:34 PM

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eternaljwh

Joined: 3/11/2008
Posts: 583
Location: USA

You do recall correctly. The four random steps are when GlobalFrameTimer (at $12) < 64; enemies move at 1 px/frame (as does Link, outside of swamp) and check for direction change every 16 (i.e. one tile) Both x and y it figures out where Link is, adds 16, subtracts the enemy position and checks if it's >= 32 to divert into randomwalk. There seems to be a slight fudge in that when adjusting Link's position relative to the screen, it uses 132 instead of 128. The randomwalk routine, when loaded, is at $8488; it reads a random number from $51B+x (where x index register is which enemy-slot the random encounter is in of the I thinkeight possible; they tend to use higher indices first). If the sign bit is negative, then it decides to move the monster in a negative direction; then it ands the random byte with $04. If that's nonzero (i.e. the $04 bit is set on that random number) then it moves left/right, else, it decides to move up/down. I don't have the random-number update routine nor the encounter collision routine, sorry. Hope this helps. My unfiltered notes that say the same stuff:

MEMORY ADDRESSES (on overworld) 12: framecounter 7f: Link's "relative" Y-pos in pixels, overworld fd: screen position (X) in pixels thus a shorthand for Link's X position relative to map tiles 0203: unknown? seems to always be 0x84 on overworld from (very limited) testing; no other writes found on overworld ==unverified:== 4e:x (575) [82] -2a:y (567) 4f:x (576) [83] -2b:y (568) ==verified:== 50:x (577) [84] -2c:y (569) 51:x (578) [85] -2d:y (570) 52: xs (579) [86] -2e: y (571) 53: X? (57a) [87] -2f: Y? (572) 54: X. (57b) [88] -30: y. (573) 55: X? (57c) [89] -linked y: 31 (574) "$2a,x": y of encounters (2a-31) "$4e,x": x of encounters (4e-55), filled 55 down, it seems [both of above appear to be 128-based? locking to 0 will yield every-8-tiles immobile clumps] "$575,x": X-vel of encounters "$56d,X": y-vel of encounters "$50e,x": timer of encounters (to despawn). "$82,x": encounter type. 00: inactive; 01: easy; 02: hard; 03: fairy. Nonstandard types result in Hard, it seems? 8423-loop: zero the xvel, yvel of encounters. only done when monsters SHOULD change direction. check each encountertype($82,x), branch to 8435 if nonzero. Else, deX[so check next encounter slot down], and loop. On finishing, JMP 8332 8435: compare to 3 (fairy?), if carry set (>=3) branch to 8488 if not, load $12(?), subtract x40 (64), bcc (<64) to..8488 subtract 70 from "$2a,x"[enc-y]t with carry (30 becomes B0) clear carry, adc $7f (??? is 0 here) clear carry, adc x10, compare x20, bcs (>=20) to 8464 [x70-enc's Y+link's Y+0x10 >= 0x20] (else)ldy 1 (+), lda "$4e,x" (enc-x) sec, sbc $Fd, cmp $0203 (??), bcc (<) $845D [enc-x - link's x < 84] ELSE, ldy xFF [845d] tya, sta "$0575,x" x-vel of encounter; loop back to 842f (8464)lda $0203 (?), set carry, sbc $4e,x(x-encounter) clear carry, adc $fd(? is 50 here) clear carry, adc x10, compare x20, bcs to 8488 [0x84 - enc's X + link's X + 0x10 >=0x20] ldy 1 lda $2a,x(y-enc), set carry, sbc $7f(?), cmp x70, bcc 8481 [enc's Y - Link's Y < 0x70] IF NOT, ldy FF, (8481) tya, (acc = ff), STA $56d,x(y-vel of encounter) and loop back to 842f (which hits next X down, then goes back to 8423) 8488:ldy 1, lda $51B,x (?? x is still which-encounter though) [=9d] If plus, leave y 1. if minus, make y FF. AND x04, bne 84a1 [bit 4 is are-you-moving-x-or-y??] IF NOT, tya (+/-1), sta $056d,x(!);clc, adc $2a,x(!);sta $2a,x; and loop back to 842f 84a1: tya (+/-1), sta $575,x(!); clc, adc $4e,x(!);sta $4e,x and loop back to 842f

Posted: 2/6/2014 9:33 AM

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Inzult

Active player (422)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

Okay, here's the new any% no unintentional exit WIP, getting ready to go to palace 3. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12510086418736967 If anyone wants to mess around with any of the run and try to tighten it a bit, you're more than welcome to it. The overall route (probably) isn't going to get tweaked any more and the game is actually somewhat hex friendly. Good places to look for improvements are any side scrolling room where I don't simply hold the direction I want to go and kill enemies with sneaky momentum conserving tricks on my way out, and, of course, any overworld section.

Posted: 2/12/2014 5:27 PM

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TASeditor

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Joined: 7/9/2010
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I tried as much as I can to manipulate the enemies in the swamp, but couldn't succeed yet. I don't want to delay to many frames and not start a battle. Maybe someone will give it a try. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12651027257276382

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Posted: 2/14/2014 11:55 PM

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Inzult

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Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

taseditor, the overworld is indeed a harsh mistress :( I've been messing with the movie and the fastest I can get there so far with the seed you've got (by taking only one step on the path near p2 in stead of 2) is 9 frames behind the published movie, you said you were 9 frames ahead of that so that is 18 frames lost :( Curiously, waiting inside of glitch town for any number of frames between 0 and 9, or the full 18 frames does not seem to result in the same initial overworld spawns I got in the published movie. In fact, the time encounters barely changed at all. I was not aware of other ways to manipulate the spawns besides time, so it seemed to me the results would be the same as what I saw in the published movie. But there apparently is something I have missed after all this time. For the published movie, I redid the downstab basement to be 1 frame slower than my fastest result and the overworld changed significantly. So I waited for 1 frame in the town screen with the downstab door, and this is the result: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12701473793563120 As you can see, I was still not successful in getting around the spawns efficiently, but more importantly, the behavior of the time-based enemy spawns is drastically changed, and so is the random steps the spawns take. I was experiencing only subtle changes by waiting on the last screen in town. I don't want to suggest trial and error, because that's pretty lame. But try some different stuff deeper into Mido town to see if you can get a friendly seed?

Posted: 2/15/2014 3:06 PM

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TASeditor

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Thanks for trying. Very sad you couldn't succeed. Trial and error is the most effective method I can think of. It isn't to hard to delay inputs and such, also it seems it is useful to walk against blocks to manipulate enemies. Edit: I delayed more frames in Mido and got into the Palace 3 frames faster than in the published movie. I think it is possible to save a few more frames. Edit: Done with Palace 2. Is preventing random enemy battles possible after Palace 2 without losing time? This is the best I got so far User movie #12786554823417224

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Posted: 3/8/2014 10:31 PM

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TASeditor

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So far I'm done. I ended up saving 8 frames, which is weird because it should be 10. I lost 2 frames on the Dark Link battle, because I don't know how to manipulate him. I also could save 5 more frames in the cave where the hammer is. On the first enemy where Link gets hit, I manage to get a better position after getting hit. But I lost those 5 frame in the death cutscene due to a frame counter. User movie #13188609833547530

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Posted: 3/9/2014 4:12 AM

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Inzult

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Joined: 9/27/2004
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I know of one more place to save time. It's probably easier for me to just make an adjustment than to attempt to explain it. So here. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/13193944508739415 89 frames saved with this trick using the wrong exit on maze island. I'm not aware of other places where this would work, but there's probably others. Of course, this desynced the Dark Link fight. But to make a TAS sometimes you have to eat a few omelettes. Or something. edit: I have once gotten from P2 to Saria with 0 encounters. The input file was lost, however, and it wasn't done from a "good" starting point it was just in testing, so all of the initial RNG was possibly something it wouldn't normally be at that point. It is possible that there could be a good overworld manipulation there, but I was never able to find one for my movie either :(

Posted: 3/9/2014 3:17 PM

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TASeditor

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That's interesting. Thanks for showing this little trick. I think it happens, when Link faces to the left when he exits the screen. I also managed to go from palace 2 to Saria with 0 encounters, but I delayed so much frames, that it turned out slower.

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Posted: 3/9/2014 5:35 PM

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Inzult

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Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
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Here is an alternate route which appears to be faster. It arrives at Dark Link's room 193 frames faster than the tweaked movie posted earlier. It is a very rough run and could probably be tightened by a good number of frames and made to look better as well: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/13206244710548155 I didn't think it was a good route, so I didn't bring it up before. However some new ideas worked out nicely, and I now think this route is better than the old one, even if the encounter near palace 2 could be avoided. This basically means starting over, I think, but you might be able to reuse some sections. I do like the glitchier movement in your run. I used it pretty sparingly in the old one so it would be easier to watch, but at this point I think making it look as crazy as possible is for the best.

Posted: 3/17/2014 7:17 PM

Post subject: encoded my run

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TASeditor

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This run is 6.46 seconds faster than the current published run. I'll submit it tomorrow. User movie #13384430605983627 Link to video

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Posted: 3/17/2014 8:38 PM

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Inzult

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This looks a lot more like something that needs to be submitted than the last file you posted, so good work on that.

Posted: 4/25/2014 8:56 PM

Post subject: glitch

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TASeditor

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Back in the days when I made my glitched run, I stumbled over this glitch. I don't know if it was posted by someone else earlier, but I'm sure this glitch is known. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yITcL5m7qjQ How does it happen: When you talk to a townsperson while the drawing of the screen is somewhat messed up, which means you're at high speed, the game will crash for a short time and then Link picks up a thing, sometime he doesn't pick it up. My reverse engineering skills are very limited and couldn't find anything interesting about this glitch.

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Posted: 4/26/2014 4:56 AM

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ars4326

He/Him

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Joined: 12/8/2012
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Did Link actually obtain anything, or was it just a bugged animation? It'd be very nice if it were possible to manipulate obtaining the hammer with that glitch.

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9

Posted: 10/17/2014 8:26 AM

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Blair

Joined: 10/17/2014
Posts: 2

I believe the current published run of 05:35.93 can be improved upon by at least several seconds. At 4:42 of the video on the screen where Link loses a life, you can advance the screen slightly to the right, exit left, and then exit left again (without moving the screen right this time) to appear in the lower part of the hallway type area with the flying Ras and the blocks that cover the invisible pit going below. From here you can go right a bit and drop down the aforementioned pit after breaking a couple of blocks. This seems much quicker than the route used (which uses fairy to travel through an unnecessary room and puts another death in there to replenish the MP). I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this and whether I might be mistaken. Apologies if my post is better suited in the topic for the published video itself.

Posted: 10/17/2014 9:25 AM

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TASeditor

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You can't break those blocks without having the gloves, which are not collected in this run. Collecting them additionally would be much slower.

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Posted: 10/17/2014 5:30 PM

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Blair

Joined: 10/17/2014
Posts: 2

Ah of course. Amazing that I didn't realize that before posting. Thanks for setting me straight.

Posted: 2/16/2015 6:29 PM

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franpa

Joined: 2/25/2006
Posts: 407

http://youtu.be/X61jVN8uVGs?t=3m34s Has anybody noticed this glitch before? - He goes up the elevator - Gets the key from the outside - Returns down the elevator - Passes through area where the door should've been, without realizing that the door magically disappeared before he ever reached it - He now has an extra key to use in the dungeon I'm assuming they're playing on an actual NES and not emulation.

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Posted: 2/16/2015 6:53 PM

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Tompa

Any

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Hmm... That is interesting for sure, nothing I have seen before.

Posted: 2/16/2015 7:43 PM

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NESAtlas

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franpa wrote:

I'm assuming they're playing on an actual NES and not emulation.

I'm pretty sure they are on an actual console as a few episodes earlier they had a visual glitch which made Dan contemplate resetting the console after saving just in case it got worse.

http://youtube.com/NESAtlas